CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #11

[Lhughessk]

It is not true that there is no basis to speculate that the relationship was broken.

News stories written before the first press conference on December 10th were all describing an exchange of a child - whether the story had said Kelsey dropped off their child or has said that PF had picked up their child. Based on that alone is enough for a reasonable person to question why it seems their was some sort of custody exchange going on especially since it was occurring on a day that is a major holiday where couples and families spend them together.

Also, anyone reading the Missing page run by the family at that time would have seen the same thing. If anyone at that time also say Kelsey's aunt's post (even here at WS before it was removed) would have actually seen the words broken up.

Anyone listening to the first press conference would not only hear the word "exchange" used by the police chief when going through the time line. If you see the press release on the Woodland Park Police FB page immediately after that press conference where they made two clarifications.

If you listened to the second press conference from last Friday the police chief was asked about the custody situation (which goes to the relationship status) at the 6 minute mark:

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Q. What was the custody arrangement like before Kelsey went missing/disappeared?
A. So, that is still going to be part of this investigation so I can't really comment on that

That press conference was 12 days after Kelsey was reported missing and even now another 6 days later there is no definitive statement as to what the true status of their relationship. This is the elephant in the room. There must be some reason why, after all this time, that none of the parties involved have any interest in clearing this matter up.

My instincts say that if they were broken up, and it had anything to do with some actions by PF, we would know about it. It would be part of the story by now. So the longer this goes on, the more and more likely it is that if they were broken up it has something to do with some actions by Kelsey and perhaps something that would paint her in a negative light. When we have her cousin quoted in the media that when this all comes out it will be a "long story" it only seems to point more in that direction. This story shouldn't be "long" when we are talking about a relationship that is between two and three years in length.

More importantly, if they were broken up and had been nothing but co-parents with no involvement with each other, other than to exchange their daughter, for a significant length of time (many months) that opens the door for someone else to have been involved with Kelsey.

So long as the elephant remains in the room speculation on the relationship status is completely valid.

I was speaking specifically regarding SandyQLS’s statement which indicated that relationship status wasn’t even in doubt and she accepted that PF no longer had a “significant other”. The discussion was whether PF, if innocent, had a duty to check on KB during that entire week she was gone. Kind of hard to debate the point when we couldn’t agree on relationship status.

There’s also the question of Websleuths rules. My understanding is that any speculation must have a basis in fact. News media using the term “custody” doesn’t do it - especially when many of them also use the term “fiancé”. And your reference to the aunt doesn’t qualify as a fact, either. For one, we can’t discuss FB stuff. Two, if something is posted and then deleted, it’s no longer valid for consideration. And three, we have no way of knowing if what she posted was accurate. It could have been faulty second-hand info. The fact that it would be posted and then quickly deleted should make it less trustworthy, not more.

Meanwhile, both CB and PF’s attorney have been on record that they were in an active relationship. CB even called it “good” and “strong”. Those are things that I believe we should give more weight, given who they are coming from and the direct or semi-direct nature of the quotes.

By the way, if they actually HAD broken up, and I was PF’s attorney, I would be getting out in front of the hoopla over his lack of involvement and saying, “My client and KB actually were no longer together romantically, and that is why he didn’t feel that checking up on her after the 25th was appropriate.” But the lawyer has not said that. Maybe he’s not a good lawyer. You don’t necessarily get a lot of good attorney options in a small town. I’ve lived it.

 

[Scoutce]

1. A high-profile case will always bring in new members.
2. As someone who lurked as a guest for a long time, the new format here is a lot more mobile friendly (I use my phone exclusively), so that made it much easier for me to start posting. Maybe others have joined in because of the new format, too.
3. I don’t know what the underlying motivation is of the posts from you and the OP are, so if I’m misinterpreting, I apologize. But “there sure are a lot of new people around here” could be interpreted as being suspicious and unwelcoming. It’s like the old immigrants not liking the new immigrants. Again, you may not have meant it that way.

You pegged me. Thanks for posting!

1. I am a new member. I came across this site when I was reading about and looking for information on the Jayme Closs case then became interested in KB.
2. I am on a computer right now, but generally use my phone to access this site and if I couldn't I would not have joined. I lurked for a week before I joined.
3. I am a new immigrant not a poser who has been banned in the past.

 

[gitana1]

I just wanted to point out that it’s truly amazing the amount of information LE can ascertain about a person's daily habits, normal routines, and the locations a user frequently visits just by looking at data obtained from various resources. Even if LE doesn't have access to the phone. Even if the user has taken steps to erase text messages and/or their search history. Even if the user resets a phone to its factory settings.

I was searching my brain for cases that have heavily relied on cell phone data to secure convictions and remembered the detailed testimonies of a data analyst and an intelligence expert heard during the kidnapping trial of Heather Elvis. IMO, this testimony was the most damning evidence presented to the jury, and I think it played a major role in the state obtaining a successful conviction. (FYI: Tammy Moorer was ultimately found guilty of one count of kidnapping and one count of conspiracy to kidnap, in regards to the disappearance of Heather Elvis, and was sentenced to 30 years in prison.)

LE has not been able to locate Heather Elvis, has never recovered her phone, and the Moorer family went to great lengths to remove incriminating evidence from their own cell phones (well... they attempted to anyway). Nevertheless, investigators were able to construct a clear timeline of phone movements on the day and night Heather disappeared. They were able to construct this timeline after obtaining a search warrant for her Google location history record, in conjunction with call detail records from her wireless network provider and cell tower location data.

According to the intelligence analyst that testified in that case, Google collects information from its users to offer location specific answers to their internet searches. GPS coordinates are collected every time an activity occurs on the device (for example, when the user unlocks the screen, makes a phone call, opens an app, receives an incoming text, etc.) In Heather's case, on the night she disappeared, Google collected GPS coordinate information approximately 1x every minute.

For example, the information obtained from that warrant allowed them to determine that Heather's phone:
- was at her home address between 1:35 and 2:30 am
- left her home address and traveled a specific route between 2:32 and 2:43 am
- was located at a specific address in the northeast corner of a parking lot (which happened to be the specific location of the restaurant's dumpsters) between 2:43 and 2:57 am
- began to travel back down the route from which it came but turned around at a specific address and traveled back to the previous address between 2:57 and 3:01 am
- was located at the same northeast corner of the parking lot between 3:04 and 3:16 am
- traveled back towards her home between 3:16 and 3:21 am
- was located in the parking lot of her apartment complex between 3:21 and 3:25 am
- left her apartment again and traveled a specific route between 3:25 and 3:35 am
- came to rest at the location where her car was ultimately found abandoned two days later between 3:38 and 3:41 am
- stopped recording activity at 3:41 am

The information they were able to obtain regarding the Moorer's phones include:
- the Powering Event Logs (when their phones were powered on/off) from their wireless network provider
- deleted text messages that were recovered from their computer
- deleted texts, phone calls, and instant messages that were extracted using a Cellebrite device

They were also able to recognize patterns of behavior by analyzing ping data from the Moorer’s wireless provider (for example, pings indicated their phones were located near Heather’s place of employment around the same time Heather’s shift ended -- on multiple occasions -- in the days leading up to her disappearance).

Remember: LE was able to determine those specific details without having access to Heather's phone. With that said, I feel confident LE should be able to track Kelsey's movements up until the moment her phone was disabled and that information should reveal a lot about her activity on Thanksgiving (and, perhaps, the few days that followed.) If, for example, her phone was immediately disabled after her baby was no longer in her custody and remained that way until it was powered on and pinged a tower in Idaho somewhere on the 25th ...that would be a clear indication of very suspicious behavior, IMO.


ETA: They were not able to obtain Google GPS coordinate information for the M's because their Google accounts had been deleted.

Brilliant. Wow.

 

[SandyQLS]

It is not true that there is no basis to speculate that the relationship was broken.

News stories written before the first press conference on December 10th were all describing an exchange of a child - whether the story had said Kelsey dropped off their child or has said that PF had picked up their child. Based on that alone is enough for a reasonable person to question why it seems their was some sort of custody exchange going on especially since it was occurring on a day that is a major holiday where couples and families spend them together.

Also, anyone reading the Missing page run by the family at that time would have seen the same thing. If anyone at that time also say Kelsey's aunt's post (even here at WS before it was removed) would have actually seen the words broken up.

Anyone listening to the first press conference would not only hear the word "exchange" used by the police chief when going through the time line. If you see the press release on the Woodland Park Police FB page immediately after that press conference where they made two clarifications.

If you listened to the second press conference from last Friday the police chief was asked about the custody situation (which goes to the relationship status) at the 6 minute mark:

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Q. What was the custody arrangement like before Kelsey went missing/disappeared?
A. So, that is still going to be part of this investigation so I can't really comment on that

That press conference was 12 days after Kelsey was reported missing and even now another 6 days later there is no definitive statement as to what the true status of their relationship. This is the elephant in the room. There must be some reason why, after all this time, that none of the parties involved have any interest in clearing this matter up.

My instincts say that if they were broken up, and it had anything to do with some actions by PF, we would know about it. It would be part of the story by now. So the longer this goes on, the more and more likely it is that if they were broken up it has something to do with some actions by Kelsey and perhaps something that would paint her in a negative light. When we have her cousin quoted in the media that when this all comes out it will be a "long story" it only seems to point more in that direction. This story shouldn't be "long" when we are talking about a relationship that is between two and three years in length.

More importantly, if they were broken up and had been nothing but co-parents with no involvement with each other, other than to exchange their daughter, for a significant length of time (many months) that opens the door for someone else to have been involved with Kelsey.

So long as the elephant remains in the room speculation on the relationship status is completely valid.

Great post. I wanted to add that from that first press conference, CB insisted that they were engaged and called PF the fiance. The police chief in response to a reporter's question said he is the father of KB's baby and let's leave it at that. (I am paraphrasing).

This was Dec 10, and that was 8 days after the missing person report. LE was directly contradicting CB and certainly not confirming CB's "engaged fiance" statement. It was not PF telling that story to CB.

Additionally, when couples are involved seriously, they tend to have a collection of personal property inside each others homes. The media reported on one dry toothbrush in KB's home, not two.

I think the social or romantic relationship ended back in or before May 2018 when her parents bought the townhome for her.

 

[Mimi in London]

Absolutely. If PF told CB on Sun. the 25th she was going on this "trip", CB and family would have already been having angst by the 28th when she did not arrive at the said destination. I wonder if CB at that point contacted him again for more details? She trusted him to give her truthful info thus waiting until Dec. 2nd to report her as missing. So very convenient for him as he would have had 10 days to get his story straight in his head. Not that he's talking to anyone. I understand he has "rights" but he has no compassion. He's not talking to her family because he's afraid of being tripped up. MOO

Rather than tell her mother she said she was going to Idaho, (IMO) perhaps he said she said she needed time out for a week. Her mother may have given it the benefit of the doubt, but reported her missing the minute that week was up.

 

[Ccging]

I really feel for her family, it’s been 4 weeks since last confirmed sighting of KB. Looking at FB her mom has gone silent (not posting) and we have not seen @Kelsey's Aunt for a while here. Sending them tons of prayers for strength, I can’t imagine how hard this is.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

Welcome to Websleuths, Scoutce!
Love your dog. He looks like Scooby Doo.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

You pegged me. Thanks for posting!

1. I am a new member. I came across this site when I was reading about and looking for information on the Jayme Closs case then became interested in KB.
2. I am on a computer right now, but generally use my phone to access this site and if I couldn't I would not have joined. I lurked for a week before I joined.
3. I am a new immigrant not a poser who has been banned in the past.

Welcome to WS - glad to have you here with us!!

 

[Kapua]

If the family received some bad news, perhaps they can't bring themselves to do updates? I know I don't think I could JMO

I remember that during the Mollie Tibbetts investigation, there came a time when the family came to believe that their worst fears had come true. This could be the case here. MOO.

 

[Noharg]

Do you think there is going to be violence if LE approaches him for an arrest? Does he carry a concealed weapon or two or three? If you personally know Patrick and think this is a possibility, please call the FBI, CBI, or Woodland Park PD now.

No, I do not know anyone involved in this case. Just speculating/musing, and wondering aloud. Sorry if it came off as if I had some kind of info. Yikes!

Edited for typing words twice.

 

[Jennifer17]

Great post. I wanted to add that from that first press conference, CB insisted that they were engaged and called PF the fiance. The police chief in response to a reporter's question said he is the father of KB's baby and let's leave it at that. (I am paraphrasing).

This was Dec 10, and that was 8 days after the missing person report. LE was directly contradicting CB and certainly not confirming CB's "engaged fiance" statement. It was not PF telling that story to CB.

Additionally, when couples are involved seriously, they tend to have a collection of personal property inside each others homes. The media reported on one dry toothbrush in KB's home, not two.

I think the social or romantic relationship ended back in or before May 2018 when her patents bought the townhome for her.

BBM. Why has PF's lawyer said that they had a relationship with normal ups and downs?
And where was the 'dry toothbrush' mentioned?

 

[Hopefullyhelpful]

Okay, for all the people who are debating "custody" and "child exchange" arrangements. What living together, happily married, no problems, couple with a young child has not at some point "exchanged" the child. Two working people are constantly negotiating who has baby when, how is baby getting here, there or wherever. And what momma has not said, would you please take "Little whoever" to the park for two hours while I prepare this recipe for the dinner we are attending at your parents house later this evening! (I am not suggesting that's how it went down....I'm just suggesting that those are ordinary, everyday situations and conversations.)

As to the neighbor not seeing PF staying overnight. I share a driveway with a neighbor. She has two children, one lives with her, one is away at college in another city. I see the away at college child 25x more than I see the one living in her home. It happens.

It just feels like everyone is grasping at the outer edges of possibility, which I totally get. It's frustrating. We all feel invested. Heck, I spoke with my daughter (KB's age) this morning by text. She asked for a recipe. We discussed our upcoming plans for the holiday. Looking forward to seeing her and my grandkids. Then I got sick to my tummy thinking about KB and how innocently her Thanksgiving holiday must have begun and how simple and normal that conversation with her mom must have been at the time.

LE know their jobs. This is not a situation of a local PD who is inexperienced, or heaven forbid, clouded by personal relations. The FBI, the CBI as well as local PDs are all involved. We have to trust they are on top of it. We have to trust that all the things that seem "weird" on the surface to us vis a vie family statements, retractions, lack of statements etc, have been very carefully orchestrated to effect a resolution that is in the best interest of the baby.

Edited to add MOO MOO MOO

 

[gitana1]

Yes, I understand that’s why you suspect him. Fortunately the Fourth Ammendment guarantees us protection from unreasonable search and seizure without probable cause. If the probable cause that warrant is based on is the same fluff you just pointed out, nothing found will end up being admissible in court.

Probable cause can't be based on "fluff" or it wouldn't get past a judge.

The process of obtaining a search warrant, is, indeed, part of the process of building a case that ensures constitutional protections are upheld.

See, the employer being texted tends to make me believe that KB sent that text. (Occam, and all that.) I know that there are a thousand theories of how the texts could have been sent from Idaho by someone else, but AFAIK there's not a shred of evidence that we are privy to that would support any of those theories. (e.g., nobody has suggested that PF wasn't near home over that weekend or the following week)

Except it's not "Occam" at all. A responsible pilot as she was doesn't "text" her employer to suddenly take time off from work. As someone explained, that wouldn't be the process at all. She would likely be fired for that.

The fact is she is missing. She has a baby and hasn't contacted anyone since those convenient text messages. Her fiancée - the last person to see her - has refused to answer questions about his whereabouts in the days surrounding those text messages. LE had enough probable cause to search his property and vehicles. The CBI and FBI seem pretty focused on HIM after several weeks of accessing data and evidence we know nothing about.

 

[UnicornDragon]

OK, for the sake of argument, let's say she allowed the child to be with PF and his family for Thanksgiving day. That's not particularly unreasonable. However, she had Nov. 23-Nov. 25 off for the holiday weekend as well. Does it make sense to you that she wouldn't want to spend ANY of the long weekend with her child? Because that does not make sense to me. Are there any moms of toddlers who want to back me up on this? MOO

Granted, I have active children and my youngest on the ground is 3. But I've said it before, I'll say it again. With known, safe child care - I'll gladly take a break, even a long break.

 

[Mimi in London]

I've noticed this also. Been here years and followed hundreds of cases and I have never seen so many new accounts pop up and join the discussion. Most if not all with the same suggestions on what happened to Kelsey I might add.

I’ve been here years, too. I don’t know why this case compelled me to post for the first time. Maybe because it’s so unusual. But I promise I’m real.

 

[Hatfield]

These two groups of officers are exactly that, high regarded, intelligent law enforcement officers- they know exactly what they are doing... they are just setting the trap. PF will be arrested mark my words.

JMO
I agree and I have faith that they will break the case and find out what happened. Hopefully soon.

There is one thing that I have not been able to shake though. This is pure speculation and since we have heard that the father may have relatives currently or in the past in LE then I have been wondering if part of the delay in getting the investigation full throttle may have been due to some LE ties that may have been known to him. Does anyone else think that could be possible?

I would hate to think that and I guess it may not matter at this point but I am wondering if there was any internal LE pressure to not dive into the case as much as could have been done at the beginning. I suppose if its ever determined that anything like that happened then I would hope LE could take action against others if they found out they were led astray at the beginning.

All JMO and speculating.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

I’ve been here years, too. I don’t know why this case compelled me to post for the first time. Maybe because it’s so unusual. But I promise I’m real.

I'm glad you did - welcome to the WS posters club.

 

[gitana1]

I don't think anything specific. I believe that as adults, we should be able to hold emotions and, maybe, resort to polite discussions?

You are putting words in my mouth, "mad woman" is not my language, in fact, I'd be ashamed to ever call people who struggle in such a derogatory way.

Someone posted mental health facility as an option and I am discussing this option.

I have a feeling that she was OK till the 25th. And the fact that her family was unconcerned till Dec 2 means that the version they heard as to why she was off the radar was plausible. So...there might be many reasons for her to make the trip to Gooding, but one of them could be some facility.

And given her job, it is very obvious that she would not want to sign herself into any facility in Colorado.

Just another scenario. I am slightly tired of discussing cinnamon buns.

Secret rehab or mental health facility is a theory that has become pretty popular on various missing women's cases (I don't think I've seen that theory pop up in a missing man's case yet, interestingly).

I have never seen it borne out.

Simply, a rehab center would disclose the fact that the person is in their center, to LE, and the search and investigation would be over. LE would issue a statement: "The missing woman has been located and is safe and no further information will be released at this time due to privacy reasons. We greatly appreciate the public's assistance and concern in this matter."

Kelsey Berreth is not in a secret rehab or mental health facility as the FBI and CBI frantically search for her. IMO.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

JMO
I agree and I have faith that they will break the case and find out what happened. Hopefully soon.

There is one thing that I have not been able to shake though. This is pure speculation and since we have heard that the father may have relatives currently or in the past in LE then I have been wondering if part of the delay in getting the investigation full throttle may have been due to some LE ties that may have been known to him. Does anyone else think that could be possible?

I would hate to think that and I guess it may not matter at this point but I am wondering if there was any internal LE pressure to not dive into the case as much as could have been done at the beginning. I suppose if its ever determined that anything like that happened then I would hope LE could take action against others if they found out they were led astray at the beginning.

All JMO and speculating.

Could be. It would definitely be a conflict of interest in my eyes anyhow.
jmo

 

[UnicornDragon]

I'm also new to posting. I've read for a while, but just hadn't joined.