CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #14 *ARREST*

[oviedo]

I don't know about the state that I'm in, but in Florida they have What's called the Sunshine laws, and all recordings .at the jail are made public.

Yes sunshine laws make most everything open and available to the public

 

[PommyMommy]

Pommy, does that apply to Sheila as she has been detained? And that he lives there? I just posted a link and now worried.

She was detained at the time of PF's arrest but she has not been arrested or named a POI/suspect.

Regardless, we are allowed to link MSM and LE reports and discuss what is in them. Beyond that though, we can't sleuth family. That's my understanding. Clear as mud, lol?

MOO

 

[Gardener1850]

I repaint a couple different rooms in my house every year. I get bored and it’s the cheapest and easiest way to change it up! If it’s simple color matching it wouldn’t take long to do an entire room. But considering the house had been closed up the fresh paint smell would’ve certainly lasted quite some time.

Yes, another thing to consider. I stopped my home painting spree in the fall this year when it started to get too cold to open a window. I even bought that low-VOC paint that is supposed to not have a smell and found it still has a scent to it and I still wanted to air out the house after painting. Although he had 10 days I think an enclosed room painted 10 days ago would be obvious something had been painted. Plus PF or someone else would be on camera buying the paint and supplies. And he would have the problem of getting rid of all the painting items-- multiple trips in and out of the Duplex with supplies would be noticed by someone on her street. And if he DID manage to pull that off unseen, why would he keep the evidence (paint/supplies) somewhere only to take it to the dump after the police searched the ranch? I know a lot of perps are dumb, but that doesn't make much sense. JMO.

 

[cluciano63]

Jmo, yes it is rare to see first degree murder charges within weeks, when the victim has not been found...

 

[Seattle1]

Brilliant! Thank you for this.
I have a cold and my head is clogged so please forgive me as I am catching up here if I'm a bit SLOW and/or repetitive but...
Does anyone know, as example, what may have led LE to charge PF with the offense of solicitation? What might such evidence be? I'm curious.

Unlike conspiracy charge requiring an agreement between at least 2 people, and overt action, solicitation charge only needs a conversation where PF attempted to persuade another person to commit a felony, and you intend to facilitate the commission of the felony. I believe somebody had evidence that such a conversation took place. MOO

ETA: facilitate commission of crime

 

[Gardenista]

Unlike conspiracy charge requiring an agreement between at least 2 people, and overt action, solicitation charge only needs a conversation where PF attempted to persuade another person to commit a felony. I believe somebody had evidence that such a conversation took place. MOO

No, the DA specifically said more than a conversation is needed.

 

[jaspermac]

I think that was a poster's speculation, not from the media and not from tight-lipped LE.

I don't remember a case where there were so many LE returns to various places. KB's townhome had at least 3 searches: cursory community caretaker search 12/3?, extensive SW for her home and vehicles, then the Thurs 12/20 additional overnight search.

If this goes to trial, LE will have to lay out all these complex steps of investigation and evidence. I do wonder why if the townhome is now described as the scene of a "violent crime" when did they know that, how did they figure that out, and why wasn't it noticed earlier - or did they know all along but they only told the public she was missing, cold rolls, and so on, so that the suspect would not know what LE knew.

I don't believe they knew all along. I think something was mentioned in the press conference but could be wrong. If you look at the actions of police it becomes apparent they didn't know until they started digging deeper. So Dec 15 they were there and sealed it. Then after the search at PF's , they went back to KB's and they started recognizing certain things as evidence- most likely on things they found at PF's or cellphone info, or from tips. then they took the evidence from the dump, did a follow up search at PF's and went back to KB's. This final trip is when we think they started recognizing it as a crime scene. At first they just took bags of evidence. Then they sent the FBI crime vehicle over and started taking out large flat objects- possibly drywall or cupboards. Someone clearly cleaned up the scene very well because on the wellness check it wasn't apparent to the eye that it was a crime scene, even her brother didn't notice. Likely after getting enough info and a search warrant to use luminol, then they got confirmation it was the crime scene. Could be wrong but that is how it appeared.

 

[Seattle1]

Yes sunshine laws make most everything open and available to the public

Colorado Open Records Act (CORA) also provides for mass amounts of info to be made public (as evidenced in the info dump and investigative videos from Watts) but Colorado also seems more restrictive on making even visitors logs available without court action. MOO

 

[Seattle1]

May I ask her screen name?

@Kelsey's Aunt

 

[jaspermac]

I'm a newbie here. To those of you who have followed a lot of true crime, I ask....

Without a body, is it rare to charge someone with 1st degree murder as quickly as it happened in this case?

It is more about finding evidence that something violent enough to cause someone to die happened. If they find a scene with enough blood (DNA match) to get experts to testify they can't survive with that kind of blood loss (plus evidence against the accused) then they can charge. So it just depends on how fast they are able to find the scene and link it to the accused.

 

[scdiv]

I don't believe they knew all along. I think something was mentioned in the press conference but could be wrong. If you look at the actions of police it becomes apparent they didn't know until they started digging deeper. So Dec 15 they were there and sealed it. Then after the search at PF's , they went back to KB's and they started recognizing certain things as evidence- most likely on things they found at PF's or cellphone info, or from tips. then they took the evidence from the dump, did a follow up search at PF's and went back to KB's. This final trip is when we think they started recognizing it as a crime scene. At first they just took bags of evidence. Then they sent the FBI crime vehicle over and started taking out large flat objects- possibly drywall or cupboards. Someone clearly cleaned up the scene very well because on the wellness check it wasn't apparent to the eye that it was a crime scene, even her brother didn't notice. Likely after getting enough info and a search warrant to use luminol, then they got confirmation it was the crime scene. Could be wrong but that is how it appeared.

I suspect they gained a lot of intel from the "interviews" that were alluded to at the press conference.

 

[katydid23]

Of course, but that doesn't include his family.

No, it doesn't. But it does limit his ability to influence the courts with his wishes about where the child would be placed. Without that influence, it is more likely the courts would go with the victim's family, imo.

 

[scdiv]

Jmo, yes it is rare to see first degree murder charges within weeks, when the victim has not been found...

Agreed. Joleen Cummings is another current case where premeditated first-degree murder charged have been filed, but her body still hasn't been found.

 

[jillianelaine]

It is more about finding evidence that something violent enough to cause someone to die happened. If they find a scene with enough blood (DNA match) to get experts to testify they can't survive with that kind of blood loss (plus evidence against the accused) then they can charge. So it just depends on how fast they are able to find the scene and link it to the accused.

Thanks!

 

[Gardener1850]

Delete, unsure of TOS

I think your link was ok. It only took me to a website where you can search Teller county property records.
We can't post names and addresses here (except the ranch address owned by PF's mom that was searched-- that address was in the MSM so I think it's ok to map that) but posting that link to property records should be fine for anyone who wants to sleuth on their own time. I think we can look all we want, we just can't discuss in details or have to be careful what we say. JMO.

Teller County Property Records Database

Without mentioning any names nor addresses I find the listings of vacant land that comes up under the last name Frazee to be interesting possible locations PF might have used. I'm sure LE is aware of these locations as they would have looked into all his relatives and associates as resources available to him-- especially more so now that we know PF was soliciting KB's murder from someone. MOO.

 

[SandyQLS]

I'm a newbie here. To those of you who have followed a lot of true crime, I ask....

Without a body, is it rare to charge someone with 1st degree murder as quickly as it happened in this case?

IMO yes, it is rare. To make this charge, they need evidence that is not compatible with life. The typical case would be evidence of enormous blood loss. But it could have been gray matter or some other biological material that should not be found outside the body. And they can arrest and charge, but the case will not always hold up without a body.

 

[v0x]

 

[Deleted member 155000]

I repaint a couple different rooms in my house every year. I get bored and it’s the cheapest and easiest way to change it up! If it’s simple color matching it wouldn’t take long to do an entire room. But considering the house had been closed up the fresh paint smell would’ve certainly lasted quite some time.

From the way the timeline played out, I suspect they could’ve kept a second fooor window open to let paint air out for a few days before anyone noticed.

 

[Irmese]

Hasn't her mother been very cautiously asking for help to find her daughter since November 25? She cautioned people to not look too deeply into Kelsey to find the answers. Police weren't even paying attention until December 2.

I think Kelsey's family knew from the beginning that something was wrong, but police did not take their concerns seriously for 10 days even then there was no information about who what when were or why she was last seen. She baked cinnamon buns in the morning, spoke to family, and then completely vanished. Her family had difficulties convincing anyone to look into Kelsey's disappearance.

As for the Patrick scheme, on the surface it appears that he tried to dump evidence using a trailer and got caught. That led to questions about Kelsey's home, and then he was arrested. Did he wrap her in a sheet from one of the beds - with a matching sheet in the home?

I disagree. I think LE did take it seriously, but it took time for them to investigate.

 

[enelram]

Has it been factually established how PF and KB met?