CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #15 *ARREST*

[susiQ]

If we are thinking, body, the question is where?

If we are thinking, dismemberment, the question is, "how to make parts disappear"?

MOO

I can't even let myself think dismemberment

I recall KB's brother saying that her suitcases where all there, but that does not rule out him having brought a big suitcase in to take her out. Goodness knows I've seen suitcases at airports you could put people in and KB was a petite woman.

 

[Gardener1850]

What we know about Kelsey:
29 years old
5'3 and 110 lbs

Employment:
Flight instructor with a Commercial Pilot's License
Worked at a coffee shop in Florissant for a few months
Worked as a Flight Instructor at Springs Aviation in Peyton, CO in 2016
Currently works for Doss Aviation as a flight instructor in Pueblo, CO (abt 70 miles from Woodland Park)

Education:
KB spent most of her childhood attending Crestview School in Moses Lake, WA
Crestview School is tied to the local Seventh Day Adventist Church which held a vigil for Kelsey
Trained as a pilot at Big Bend Community College in Moses Lake, WA

Address and location history:
Born in Grant County, Washington
Raised in Warden, Washington
Kelsey moved to Sandpoint, ID at some point
Moved to Woodland Park, CO in 2016
Had a PO Box address in Florissant, CO
Lived in another townhouse unit in her subdivision before buying her current home
Current address: 269 E Lake Ave, Woodland Park, CO
--Home purchased by KB in May 2018
--2 bedroom, 1 bath Duplex/Townhouse

Info on KB's Personality and Interests
“She’s not the kind that runs off. This is completely out of character…Kelsey is reliable, considerate and honest,” -KB's Mom

'When you're around Kelsey, I think you just feel like a better person, being around Kelsey makes me smile, it makes me smile just to think about her, she's just a good person.' -KB's cousin

"a little reserved and sometimes soft-spoken" -A former boss

'I don't think she left willingly. Kelsey's so reliable and responsible, she's a mom, she would never leave her child. She was very excited [to be a mom], and she was a great mom.' --KB's Cousin

Relatives have described Kelsey as a sweet, quiet woman who radiates a warm energy.

“When you see her, you want to give her a great big hug and squeeze her cheeks. You can feel the energy coming from her. She’s kind, compassionate and honest,” -KB's BIL

“She was like the sister I never had.” -KB's BIL

Kelsey takes a while to warm up to people, but that her relationships are meaningful; Kelsey focused on the quality of her friendships instead of quantity -KB's BIL

KB enjoyed paddle boarding, canoeing and bike riding -KB's BIL

KB is a sweet, loving “country girl” who loves horses, hiking and the outdoors. -KB's Cousin

KB loves hiking, running and bicycling.

“She looks like such an angel, and I think that she is,” “She’s the kind of person where you feel better when you’re around her.” -KB's Cousin

“She’s an awesome person. She’s so kind… You can tell she’s a very kind-hearted person,” -a neighbor

Family info from MSM:
KB's parents are retired hay farmers and lived north of Warden until a few years ago when they moved to Sandpoint, Idaho
KB's brother and brother-in-law live in Moses Lake, WA
KB's Uncle lives in Moses Lake, WA
KB and her mom talked often; they were attached at the hips since she was little and they were best friends
KB's mom knew her schedule and when to call her/when not to call because she was teaching classes; It was weird when she had not heard from Kelsey
“She and her brother spoke multiple times a week, as well as her mom.” -KB's BIL

What we know about Patrick Frazee:
32 Years Old
6'3 and 205 lbs

Education:
Went to Woodland Park High School

Employment:
Farrier
Cattle Rancher
Breeds cow herding dogs
Rodeo competitor

Address and location history:
PF appears to have been born and raised in Teller County
Currently lives with his mother at 1713 Wildhorn Rd Forissant, CO
--property searched by LE and owned by his mother
--35-acre ranch has a one-and-a-half story home and a 1,300 sq ft barn

Family info from MSM:
PF's parents are divorced
PF's mother is a registered nurse
In addition to the property searched, PF's mother owns 2 other properties in the area
PF has 3 siblings
PF's brother SF works for the Colorado Springs Police Department
A cousin has worked for the Garfield County Sheriff’s Office
An uncle FF is a retired Kiowa County sheriff

Info from people who know PF:
“He worked on my horses for a real short time till he punched one in the gut with a rasp and that was about the last time I let him work on my horses,” -MG

'It's a characteristic that was ongoing for years. Anytime he was at a rope and his horse didn't act right, he'd rip on his face, kick him. In the community, we were all at ropings and stuff, but if the horse doesn't do exactly what it's supposed to do you don't just beat them.' -MG

'One time we were at a rodeo in Cripple Creek and he got mad because his horse didn't do good and somebody didn't heel just right to help him get in the money and he got so mad he left out of Cripple Creek Rodeo, flipped his horse trailer with his horse in it and almost killed that horse.
'He got mad, tries to get his vehicle out of there and there's too many cars tightly packed in. Lots of people were there. -MG

'He was in a rage of being mad and angry, because the heeler didn't heel and they lost out the money. It was kind of a sad deal, especially trying to get the horse out that was traumatic for everybody.' -MG

A former girlfriend of PF declined to speak to the press but her partner commented saying that he knew Frazee to be aggressive with horses and dogs but that he did not beat his girlfriends.
“He cheated on her while she was in the hospital, take that for what it’s worth,” the man said of his current partner’s former relationship with Frazee

'Patrick is a horseshoer, I heard once he was thumping on the horse "saying this is how you've got to do it," that horse reared up and kicked him right in the forehead, he got a bunch of stitches and his [then] girlfriend hauled him to the hospital to get stitches.' -High School Classmate of PF

'Oh yeah, he's a recluse for sure. I haven't seen him in 10 years or so.' -High School Classmate of PF

A neighbor heard 'mixed things' about Frazee's alleged rough behavior with animals.
He was quiet and shy. He had his own friends circle and stayed close to his friends,' he said.
'He did come across, "I'm a big tough cowboy." But that's that cowboy way, got be strong.
'That's how he was raised, he raised horses. I think if you're raised country that's normal, if you're raised city it's going to seem harsh. It's not wrong in his eyes. Sometimes there's neglect and over abuse yes, he'd tread the fine line on it I'd say. You've got make a horse submit to what you want to do. You've got to be kind of firm. You shouldn't hit them.' --Former Neighbor HF

Two friends of Patrick defended him and rejected any suggestion he was cruel towards animals:

'He's an old fashioned cowboy. He's just old school, he does things the old way. He shoes horses modern, but he trains horses the way people used to do it, I wouldn't say that he's cruel or not. He's a stand up real good guy. I've just known him for years and he's a great person.'
The friend said he had not met Frazee's fiancée but added: 'I know the day I saw him he was a great dad to the daughter and he's a good guy. He was fine. --Man who saw PF shoe horses in Sept.

'I know him, when we had horses he used to trim our horses hooves. He was a very nice young man, I knew him all growing up, we used to go to the Gymkhana and the rodeos when he was younger. I've known him since 2003 and I never saw him do anything inappropriate or out of order.' -DR, runs the propane store

"I've always considered him to be a gentle soul. Soft spoken and just really down to Earth and practical." “couldn’t imagine him doing anything that would harm anyone.” -Friend, SO

Relationship info reported by others:
KB and PF met online according to her cousin
PF helped KB move from WA to CO only months after they met
KB told her cousin she was happy when she moved to be near PF
Baby K was born Oct 2017
They were engaged but did not have a wedding date set
They have never lived together -- KB's mom

"The relationship has been good, um, they're loving, um it hasn't been ideal, you know given given the economy and things, you know, they had plans that haven't worked out as they would have liked but they've dealt with that and they've made things work regardless." --KB's mom

"I mean they had plans, you know, they were planning to find a place for them to live and so forth and the economy with prices dropping out...Kelsey's fiance has some cattle and stuff and prices were poor and so the money just wasn't available as soon as they had hoped, but they make it work."-- KB's mom

There were no records of any domestic issues between the couple --Woodland Police Chief Miles De Young

“Like most relationships it has ups and downs but for the most part it's a good relationship,” -Frazee’s lawyer

Misc Info
KB owned two vehicles-- a red truck and a car used for commuting to work
PF also owns a red truck
Neighbor AG gave KB a baby gate the week before Thanksgiving
AG had always assumed Frazee lived there with Kelsey and the baby as she would see him come and go in his red work truck.
AG never heard any arguing
An employee at Starbucks said Kelsey would pull in to the drive-thru about once a week to get a chai latte

Kelsey Berreth's cousin speaks out for the first time since fiance's arrest | Daily Mail Online
Fiance accused of killing Colorado woman missing for month
Fiance of missing mom Kelsey Berreth ‘punched a horse in the gut,’ cheated on his ex while she was in the hospital, sources claim: Report
Mother of missing Colorado mom speaks out on daughter's disappearance
Mother of Kelsey Berreth asked about relationship between and her daughter and her fiancé
Kelsey Berreth: Police Search Fiancé’s Ranch In Hunt For Missing Colorado Mom
Fiance of missing Kelsey Berreth voluntarily releases cell phone, DNA sample to law enforcement
Fiancee of missing Colorado mom Kelsey Berreth is arrested and charged with murder | Daily Mail Online
Patrick Frazee: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com
Kelsey Berreth's Fiance Is a 'Gentle Soul' Who Would Never Hurt Anyone, Friend Says
Neighbor of missing mom Kelsey Berreth says she saw red pickup truck, possibly fiance Patrick Frazee’s, at her home the day she went missing

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[NanZDrew]

We discussed this topic on another case not too long ago. I don't know how other states do this, but when our children were born- if you weren't married, the father had to voluntarily take a DNA swab to prove that the baby was his, before his name was put on the birth certificate. I don't know if that has changed recently or not, and this was over 20 years ago.

Yes, and in Texas if you are receiving welfare (they call it something different now), the state really tries to find out the father, and will file a petition to establish paternity which will require suspected father's to take DNA tests. The State wants them to take financial responsibility for their offspring.

If you are married, you are presumed to be the legal father, even if it is not your child. You would have to go through the courts to establish the biological father, and I have seen cases where the nonbiological father still has to pay child support. Usually comes up when there is a divorce and mother says, "You have no rights to this child. It's not yours! " Child custody can be ugly in a breakup.

 

[Irmese]

Except people are basically saying he killed her because she was with someone else, which a) there's absolutely zero evidence that she was, and b) still isn't an excuse to kill someone, and c) is total victim blaming in the context of the posts.

ITA.

 

[WildWest]

I am pretty sure that his mother did all the hands on childcare while KB was at work.

That is where my mind went reading comments on how PF held K in some photos. My child and I knew how to get around while carrying her on my hip, then I cared for my friends child, totally different. He was used to being carried differently and it was awkward for both of us. Only explanation I can come up with is that PF's mother did do most or all of the child care.

 

[susiQ]

I don't think he dismembered her JMO. Taking her remains within a 50 mile radius somewhat known to him but off the beaten path I predict. I think he would want it close enough that he could keep an eye on things. I believe he is a control freak.

I'm wondering if she is somewhere between Woodland Park and Twin Peaks. That would have bolstered his alibi if she were found since the phone pinged in Gooding Idaho.

 

[BRRI]

I do not think he was being watched because it was the Waste management employee that called LE. So I am thinking if he hadn't called then they would not have known. That is how I took it. JMO

He wouldn’t have known that though. So he, for some reason, took the risk of going there. Unless of course, the garbage was of no relation to the case.

 

[LAHOLLA]

Just looking at her stats again. She was sooo tiny. My 17 year old is roughly the same height and has around 8 pounds on her. She’s a size 2/small, sometimes XS.

PF was twice her size

As to not violate TOS I’ll just call him a disgusting bully.

 

[NanZDrew]

I can only recall reading about two aunts, one Uncle, the mother, and the two Neighbors coming on this case to the media. Perhaps there are others that I missed. It is surprising that the media has not gotten any of his Rodeo colleagues Etc to speak.

Perhaps they do not want to jeopardize the investigation, or they are afraid. Maybe they are ashamed and/or disgusted by him. I wonder if his mom would have liked to have him gone, (before this happened) but was afraid of him, especially if her other kids did not live close. Seems to me that he was treating her property as his, and most likely he was going through all of her money.

 

[Charlot123]

Except people are basically saying he killed her because she was with someone else, which a) there's absolutely zero evidence that she was, and b) still isn't an excuse to kill someone, and c) is total victim blaming in the context of the posts.

"Still isn't an excuse to kill someone".

Nothing here is an excuse. They are both parents. The laws of our states give dad's the same rights. They are not even married. It really, doesn't matter to me, either way, if either of them dated, but it would not be a motive. Except for a very sick mind.

 

[BRRI]

I don't think media followed him to dump. we would have seen actual video of him at dump. we only saw LE at dump.

Maybe I’m going crazy but I thought we did see pictures? Now I need to look back..

I can’t find it. I swore I saw a white pickup with big trailer attached and two cars near it.

 

[girlhasnoname]

What we know about Kelsey:
29 years old
5'3 and 110 lbs

Employment:
Flight instructor with a Commercial Pilot's License
Worked at a coffee shop in Florissant for a few months
Worked as a Flight Instructor at Springs Aviation in Peyton, CO in 2016
Currently works for Doss Aviation as a flight instructor in Pueblo, CO (abt 70 miles from Woodland Park)

Education:
KB spent most of her childhood attending Crestview School in Moses Lake, WA
Crestview School is tied to the local Seventh Day Adventist Church which held a vigil for Kelsey
Trained as a pilot at Big Bend Community College in Moses Lake, WA

Address and location history:
Born in Grant County, Washington
Raised in Warden, Washington
Kelsey moved to Sandpoint, ID at some point
Moved to Woodland Park, CO in 2016
Had a PO Box address in Florissant, CO
Lived in another townhouse unit in her subdivision before buying her current home
Current address: 269 E Lake Ave, Woodland Park, CO
--Home purchased by KB in May 2018
--2 bedroom, 1 bath Duplex/Townhouse

Info on KB's Personality and Interests
“She’s not the kind that runs off. This is completely out of character…Kelsey is reliable, considerate and honest,” -KB's Mom

'When you're around Kelsey, I think you just feel like a better person, being around Kelsey makes me smile, it makes me smile just to think about her, she's just a good person.' -KB's cousin

"a little reserved and sometimes soft-spoken" -A former boss

'I don't think she left willingly. Kelsey's so reliable and responsible, she's a mom, she would never leave her child. She was very excited [to be a mom], and she was a great mom.' --KB's Cousin

Relatives have described Kelsey as a sweet, quiet woman who radiates a warm energy.

“When you see her, you want to give her a great big hug and squeeze her cheeks. You can feel the energy coming from her. She’s kind, compassionate and honest,” -KB's BIL

“She was like the sister I never had.” -KB's BIL

Kelsey takes a while to warm up to people, but that her relationships are meaningful; Kelsey focused on the quality of her friendships instead of quantity -KB's BIL

KB enjoyed paddle boarding, canoeing and bike riding -KB's BIL

KB is a sweet, loving “country girl” who loves horses, hiking and the outdoors. -KB's Cousin

KB loves hiking, running and bicycling.

“She looks like such an angel, and I think that she is,” “She’s the kind of person where you feel better when you’re around her.” -KB's Cousin

“She’s an awesome person. She’s so kind… You can tell she’s a very kind-hearted person,” -a neighbor

Family info from MSM:
KB's parents are retired hay farmers and lived north of Warden until a few years ago when they moved to Sandpoint, Idaho
KB's brother and brother-in-law live in Moses Lake, WA
KB's Uncle lives in Moses Lake, WA
KB and her mom talked often; they were attached at the hips since she was little and they were best friends
KB's mom knew her schedule and when to call her/when not to call because she was teaching classes; It was weird when she had not heard from Kelsey
“She and her brother spoke multiple times a week, as well as her mom.” -KB's BIL

What we know about Patrick Frazee:
32 Years Old
6'3 and 205 lbs

Education:
Went to Woodland Park High School

Employment:
Farrier
Cattle Rancher
Breeds cow herding dogs
Rodeo competitor

Address and location history:
PF appears to have been born and raised in Teller County
Currently lives with his mother at 1713 Wildhorn Rd Forissant, CO
--property searched by LE and owned by his mother
--35-acre ranch has a one-and-a-half story home and a 1,300 sq ft barn

Family info from MSM:
PF's parents are divorced
PF's mother is a registered nurse
In addition to the property searched, PF's mother owns 2 other properties in the area
PF has 3 siblings
PF's brother SF works for the Colorado Springs Police Department
A cousin has worked for the Garfield County Sheriff’s Office
An uncle FF is a retired Kiowa County sheriff

Info from people who know PF:
“He worked on my horses for a real short time till he punched one in the gut with a rasp and that was about the last time I let him work on my horses,” -MG

'It's a characteristic that was ongoing for years. Anytime he was at a rope and his horse didn't act right, he'd rip on his face, kick him. In the community, we were all at ropings and stuff, but if the horse doesn't do exactly what it's supposed to do you don't just beat them.' -MG

'One time we were at a rodeo in Cripple Creek and he got mad because his horse didn't do good and somebody didn't heel just right to help him get in the money and he got so mad he left out of Cripple Creek Rodeo, flipped his horse trailer with his horse in it and almost killed that horse.
'He got mad, tries to get his vehicle out of there and there's too many cars tightly packed in. Lots of people were there. -MG

'He was in a rage of being mad and angry, because the heeler didn't heel and they lost out the money. It was kind of a sad deal, especially trying to get the horse out that was traumatic for everybody.' -MG

A former girlfriend of PF declined to speak to the press but her partner commented saying that he knew Frazee to be aggressive with horses and dogs but that he did not beat his girlfriends.
“He cheated on her while she was in the hospital, take that for what it’s worth,” the man said of his current partner’s former relationship with Frazee

'Patrick is a horseshoer, I heard once he was thumping on the horse "saying this is how you've got to do it," that horse reared up and kicked him right in the forehead, he got a bunch of stitches and his [then] girlfriend hauled him to the hospital to get stitches.' -High School Classmate of PF

'Oh yeah, he's a recluse for sure. I haven't seen him in 10 years or so.' -High School Classmate of PF

A neighbor heard 'mixed things' about Frazee's alleged rough behavior with animals.
He was quiet and shy. He had his own friends circle and stayed close to his friends,' he said.
'He did come across, "I'm a big tough cowboy." But that's that cowboy way, got be strong.
'That's how he was raised, he raised horses. I think if you're raised country that's normal, if you're raised city it's going to seem harsh. It's not wrong in his eyes. Sometimes there's neglect and over abuse yes, he'd tread the fine line on it I'd say. You've got make a horse submit to what you want to do. You've got to be kind of firm. You shouldn't hit them.' --Former Neighbor HF

Two friends of Patrick defended him and rejected any suggestion he was cruel towards animals:

'He's an old fashioned cowboy. He's just old school, he does things the old way. He shoes horses modern, but he trains horses the way people used to do it, I wouldn't say that he's cruel or not. He's a stand up real good guy. I've just known him for years and he's a great person.'
The friend said he had not met Frazee's fiancée but added: 'I know the day I saw him he was a great dad to the daughter and he's a good guy. He was fine. --Man who saw PF shoe horses in Sept.

'I know him, when we had horses he used to trim our horses hooves. He was a very nice young man, I knew him all growing up, we used to go to the Gymkhana and the rodeos when he was younger. I've known him since 2003 and I never saw him do anything inappropriate or out of order.' -DR, runs the propane store

"I've always considered him to be a gentle soul. Soft spoken and just really down to Earth and practical." “couldn’t imagine him doing anything that would harm anyone.” -Friend, SO

Relationship info reported by others:
KB and PF met online according to her cousin
PF helped KB move from WA to CO only months after they met
KB told her cousin she was happy when she moved to be near PF
Baby K was born Oct 2017
They were engaged but did not have a wedding date set
They have never lived together -- KB's mom

"The relationship has been good, um, they're loving, um it hasn't been ideal, you know given given the economy and things, you know, they had plans that haven't worked out as they would have liked but they've dealt with that and they've made things work regardless." --KB's mom

"I mean they had plans, you know, they were planning to find a place for them to live and so forth and the economy with prices dropping out...Kelsey's fiance has some cattle and stuff and prices were poor and so the money just wasn't available as soon as they had hoped, but they make it work."-- KB's mom

There were no records of any domestic issues between the couple --Woodland Police Chief Miles De Young

“Like most relationships it has ups and downs but for the most part it's a good relationship,” -Frazee’s lawyer

Misc Info
KB owned two vehicles-- a red truck and a car used for commuting to work
PF also owns a red truck
Neighbor AG gave KB a baby gate the week before Thanksgiving
AG had always assumed Frazee lived there with Kelsey and the baby as she would see him come and go in his red work truck.
AG never heard any arguing
An employee at Starbucks said Kelsey would pull in to the drive-thru about once a week to get a chai latte

Kelsey Berreth's cousin speaks out for the first time since fiance's arrest | Daily Mail Online
Fiance accused of killing Colorado woman missing for month
Fiance of missing mom Kelsey Berreth ‘punched a horse in the gut,’ cheated on his ex while she was in the hospital, sources claim: Report
Mother of missing Colorado mom speaks out on daughter's disappearance
Mother of Kelsey Berreth asked about relationship between and her daughter and her fiancé
Kelsey Berreth: Police Search Fiancé’s Ranch In Hunt For Missing Colorado Mom
Fiance of missing Kelsey Berreth voluntarily releases cell phone, DNA sample to law enforcement
Fiancee of missing Colorado mom Kelsey Berreth is arrested and charged with murder | Daily Mail Online
Patrick Frazee: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com
Kelsey Berreth's Fiance Is a 'Gentle Soul' Who Would Never Hurt Anyone, Friend Says
Neighbor of missing mom Kelsey Berreth says she saw red pickup truck, possibly fiance Patrick Frazee’s, at her home the day she went missing

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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

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^ THIS ^ Speaks volumes

 

[Jupiter05]

Dismemberment is not the norm, but it does happen with some frequency.

I don’t think he was inspired by that Saudi plot, and it was merely a coincidence.

It would have been done out of practicality, as it would allow him to move the body easier.

I don’t think he scattered the parts, and I’m not positive (obviously) that this even occurred.

We don’t know for a fact that this happened, and it is merely a guess.

I think he disposed of the body at a place with which he was familiar, as most killers do.

Unfortunately, the terrain and his knowledge of it, is quite extensive.

They’ll need help to find her.

The cell phone ping does show some level of sophistication, but that is fairly common knowledge these days.

His lawyering up immediately, and never uttering a word about her disappearance, could be explained by his familiarity with law enforcement (family members).

He never even tried to act like an innocent person here, and that doesn’t just demonstrate confidence, it wreaks of arrogance.

He clearly thought he committed a perfect crime.

He didn’t though, not even close.

Perfectly stated @MassGuy!

 

[Gardener1850]

^ THIS ^ Speaks volumes

Thanks. I wanted to put together everything that we knew about KB and PF from MSM statements. I'm sure there are some quotes and facts I have missed but this is a start. I have seen a lot of comments saying we know very little about them or their relationship, so I wanted to list what we do know about them.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Thanks. I wanted to put together everything that we knew about KB and PF from MSM statements. I'm sure there are some quotes and facts I have missed but this is a start. I have seen a lot of comments saying we know very little about them or their relationship, so I wanted to list what we do know about them.

Kelsey was a good person, I just know it.

 

[Deleted member 155000]

Except people are basically saying he killed her because she was with someone else, which a) there's absolutely zero evidence that she was, and b) still isn't an excuse to kill someone, and c) is total victim blaming in the context of the posts.

I hear what you’re saying. I do. I just disagree with your assessment.

We don’t have clean evidence to support many of the possible motives being floated here...since we mostly just have differing and partial accounts from relatives...some of which are second or third hand.

We know they never moved in together and that at least one neighbor usually just saw him pick up and drop off the baby. We have heard she wanted to get married but he allegedly cited the economic downturn as reason they couldn’t do that. We have heard they may have broken up. We have been told they weren’t spending the holiday together. We are pretty sure that he killed her. So it’s logical to guess the relationship might have some challenges, ay?

Some of the most common relationship problems center on money, kids, and unrequited love...so it’s not outlandish to think she could’ve stopped loving him.

I personally DON’T think there is a second man. But I actually think it’s sexist that you keep implying that would be shameful if she did. She’s a grown adult woman who was with a guy none of us think highly of. As an independent woman, she had every right to be looking for someone else. Continuing to call out “dating around” as if it is somehow a negative behavior treats her like she—as a woman—doesn’t have the absolute right to set her own course and date whoever and as many men as she pleased.

In my opinion, we are treating her like a strong woman who—if things weren’t going well, should’ve had every option to date another man. You are trying to force us to believe she wasn’t strong enough to break away from him and set her own course...that we are only allowed to believe she still had eyes for him alone despite his shortcomings.

I don’t think there was another man. We just don’t have evidence to support any of the motives we are considering though. So it’s logical to think either thing.

NO ONE here is saying any of these things—custody, child support, another man, another woman, etc—is an excuse to kill. NO ONE. And no one here is shaming her.

I am a strong woman who doesn’t assume other women might not be acting out of strength too.

 

[SouthernSleuther]

I was in the room when the nurse brought in the paper work for my granddaughter's birth certificate. Her first question was are you married?
They said yes.
Second question- Are you married to each other?
Yes.
I have no idea what her further instructions would have been, but she did mention something about advising dad's not married to the mom before signing the birth certificate, but it didn't apply to them.
Every state has different laws on filing the birth certificate, in Georgia they were responsible for picking it up from the courthouse and paying for however many copies they wanted.
It will be interesting if we ever find out what the final ruling is about custody of KB's baby, but with her being a baby will they release that to the public?

The laws have changed since my kids were born 26 years ago!
Moo

This is my first time posting on this particular case, but I’ve been following along and wanted to provide a little insight on this issue.

I was a labor and delivery nurse for many years (disclaimer: in a state far, far away from Colorado). Where I worked, these were the rules:

If parents were unmarried, and the father wanted to be listed on the birth certificate, he was required to sign the application for birth certificate and an affidavit of paternity. The affidavit was legally binding and designated him as the father of the child. If there were ever any questions in the future, the listed father would have to go to court and challenge paternity with I’m assuming a DNA test.

If the mother was married at any time during the pregnancy, the legal husband would by law have to be listed as father on the birth certificate, even if the mother knew he was not the father. For example, if she was separated from her husband and in a relationship with someone else, she could not list him as the father, only the husband. As a result, they would have to go to court and submit to DNA testing to have it changed. That’s likely why the question was asked if your grandchild’s parents were married to each other.

I say all this to say, I have no idea if PF is listed as father on the birth certificate.

 

[BRRI]

I can't even let myself think dismemberment

I recall KB's brother saying that her suitcases where all there, but that does not rule out him having brought a big suitcase in to take her out. Goodness knows I've seen suitcases at airports you could put people in and KB was a petite woman.

Or bags

 

[NanZDrew]

Perhaps PF wanted to avoid paying child support. He certainly wouldn't be the first to murder the mother of a young child for that reason.

That is revenue, and I am not sure where Manta gets the information for revenue. It may be anything you want to put in the blank. Cows and horses are expensive to take care of and feed, especially when you have only 30 something acres. The more feed and care you put in them, the less profit. I don't think his revenue after expenses were deducted was much of anything. I feel pretty sure KB made more take home money than he did.

 

[esayer]

I hear what you’re saying. I do. I just disagree with your assessment.

We don’t have clean evidence to support many of the possible motives being floated here...since we mostly just have differing and partial accounts from relatives...some of which are second or third hand.

We know they never moved in together and that at least one neighbor usually just saw him pick up and drop off the baby. We have heard she wanted to get married but he allegedly cited the economic downturn as reason they couldn’t do that. We have heard they may have broken up. We have been told they weren’t spending the holiday together. We are pretty sure that he killed her. So it’s logical to guess the relationship might have some challenges, ay?

Some of the most common relationship problems center on money, kids, and unrequited love...so it’s not outlandish to think she could’ve stopped loving him.

I personally DON’T think there is a second man. But I actually think it’s sexist that you keep implying that would be shameful if she did. She’s a grown adult woman who was with a guy none of us think highly of. As an independent woman, she had every right to be looking for someone else. Continuing to call out “dating around” as if it is somehow a negative behavior treats her like she—as a woman—doesn’t have the absolute right to set her own course and date whoever and as many men as she pleased.

In my opinion, we are treating her like a strong woman who—if things weren’t going well, should’ve had every option to date another man. You are trying to force us to believe she wasn’t strong enough to break away from him and set her own course...that we are only allowed to believe she still had eyes for him alone despite his shortcomings.

I don’t think there was another man. We just don’t have evidence to support any of the motives we are considering though. So it’s logical to think either thing.

NO ONE here is saying any of these things—custody, child support, another man, another woman, etc—is an excuse to kill. NO ONE. And no one here is shaming her.

I am a strong woman who doesn’t assume other women might not be acting out of strength too.

I am not implying it is shameful,. I am calling out people who are saying that is the motive for her murder JFC