CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #20 *ARREST*

[Seattle1]

Why didn't he burn his trash instead of taking it to the dump?

Burn bans have been in place for a couple years throughout Colorado after all their fires-- Teller County may have also been affected.

 

[Esma]

I wonder if it is touch DNA for consumptive testing. Both Kelsey and Patrick’s DNA would be found at her house normally. So it would make sense if they were looking for a 3rd party match they have in mind. I’m in the camp that it was a non- bloody death. Touch dna testing from what I read is very small amounts and would be consumptive. Maybe they were removing multiple surface areas and objects from her home that may have been touched.

 

[MsBetsy]

Yes, but unless you have an incinerator like Dellen Millard, you will not accomplish that. Besides, in an open burn barrel his mother would not have been able to ignore the hideous stench for hours. I doubt LE would have missed an incinerator. Could he get a local farmer to burn her body for him? I doubt it. Maybe he borrowed one? Unlikely.

Maybe there were several remote places he could have done something like that without being noticed. I don't think it's impossible. We don't know what kind of connections he may have had. There have been other cases where killers have burned bodies and no-one noticed the smoke. Even dumb teenagers. Imo

 

[InvSmith]

I just listened to the press conference. The reason they said in the press conference was because they were sealing it for investigative purposes. They never said a danger to a witness. I'm working backwards on the threads, did they say that it was due to danger to a witness in court today? Where is that coming from?

I'll keep working my way back and perhaps somebody will post where that came back from for others that are also coming here late due to the holidays.

In general, irregardless of T.V., law enforcement does not promise safety or privacy to an informant/participant. I think in this case we are dealing with individuals with direct knowledge than perhaps people that may be regular and expected witnesses. They are protecting identities for the benefit of investigation. We for the most part do not live in a lawless society killing witnesses. They are in investigative mode and should be.

 

[Irmese]

Well, I may well be the only one, but WHY, why, why did he want her dead so badly? Why? She may have annoyed him about the "after we get married, we will...." or she may have been a bit giddy about discussing the wedding or honeymoon, etc., etc. But what was it that set him so against her? Okay, if he had stopped loving her; okay if he realized he never really loved her; okay if he had found someone else; okay if he didn't like her family -- it happens. Just break it off and deal with the rest of it WRT the baby.
Or did they just have a horrible argument, fight, and he struck her/beat her so badly that she couldn't or didn't survive? And The Body -- he knew the area around him fairly well, I would imagine -- is her body on his property -- did he burn he body so that it will never be found?

If he was truly looking for a murderer-for-hire, I guess that rules out the sudden fight with her dead or nearly so.
He couldn't just tell her it was over and deal with their future the next day or week or month?
Damm. This is one big mess.

He wanted the baby. If they broke up, he probably would have to go to court to get visitation. If they got into a custody battle, he might have had to pay child support. A lot of times, a custody battle is more about controlling the other partner than it is about raising the child. Taking the child is meant to hurt the partner. We don't know if he has other kids out there. He might be paying child support already. JMO.

 

[InvSmith]

I've wondered if they took SF's washing machine to examine
it for blood, etc. And where are the clothes, shoes he wore
that fateful day?

Could be. I go along the lines for small splatter and tissue and clean-up released from luminol. All I know is the length of time missing says everything. I hope she is found in Idaho.

 

[1mtroyal]

I have wondered this myself. In watching many murder mysteries, and seeing how this was planned, I see three methods killers have used before, assuming he did not just carry the body from Kelsey's house to his pickup. (1) a large suitcase, (2) large plastic tub with a lid, (3) Robert Evans/Terry Rasmussen, used a 55 gallon empty barrel. Or, he could have used something else.

 

[Irmese]

I said earlier too, he evidently cares none for his mom. If he did, how can he put her thru this? Her heart must be broken. IMO, no mom wants to believe her child capable of murder.
We might never know but I can’t help but think P & K’s relstionship was never “good”.

MOO

I don't think he loves his Mom, probably hates her because she has a tight hold on him and won't let him go. MOO.

 

[InvSmith]

He wanted the baby. If they broke up, he probably would have to go to court to get visitation. If they got into a custody battle, he might have had to pay child support. A lot of times, a custody battle is more about controlling the other partner than it is about raising the child. Taking the child is meant to hurt the partner. We don't know if he has other kids out there. He might be paying child support already. JMO.

I agree on the child support and using the child for control. We can all be grateful this baby survived!!! I think it comes down to the point like you said, he was just not willing to do the normal adult things he should to end a relationship. His thoughts are not our thought patterns and unbelievable as it is he was able to pull other people into his way of ending his relationship. Just such a tragedy...

 

[kay74]

PF has no moral compass. Makes you wonder why.

 

[Charlot123]

Happy New Year sleuthers!

I can’t stop thinking about the murder of Kelsey - I’ve also been comparing PF to other male murderers who committed the additional evil act of killing the children. I wonder what prompted him to kill Kelsey and save the baby? It’s hard to fathom what kind of life PF thought he would have without Kelsey, but still a father to little K - understanding the mind of such an evil person is impossible for me. Did he keep little K to spite Kelsey? It’s all so bizarre that I hope we do get answers some day down the road. In the meantime, I’m so happy that little K is still here for Kelsey’s family.

The baby was “him”. Kelsey was a random woman who, he felt, degraded his masculinity, or something like it.

However, hard as we may try, we can not understand the mind of a killer. Because such killings are random, chaotic and against all social morals.

These social norms can be temporarily forgotten in situations like war, or when own life is threatened, or if someone threatens the kids, but in normal times, they have existed, unchanged, for centuries. So people who violate them so easily are missing something, probably, genetically, and what this “something” is, we shall never understand.

Merely being “narcissistic” would not cut it for me. A narcissist loves and protects himself. But these killers demonstrate bizarre, illogical thinking, when the person, obviously, does not even ask himself, “how is my precious, unique, life going to change if I am caught?”

Perhaps their thinking is so out of touch with reality it is, indeed, almost psychotic?

 

[MsBetsy]

Happy First Day of 2019 everyone!!!!

Lots of good discussion overnight from our great members.

Just pondering- PF, being a confident, free-wheelin', single
guy probably had it easy meeting females. No problem
finding young women willing to romp in the hay with him.

My guess is he had/has many shallow, sexual encounters
and not all those females are totally out of his life.
Booty Calls, if you will. Guys like him have a few at all times.

Just wondering if one of these past booty calls helped him out
with KB's phone and/or solicitation. Food for thought.

I don't think he would have enlisted a "booty call" for help with something like a murder. It would have had to have been someone he knew long and well enough that he was sure he could trust. Imo

 

[Charlot123]

Yes, I think the consumptive evidence could possibly be a perp's DNA. They have enough evidence to believe she's dead, so I don't think it's hers. He could have cut himself or maybe it is semen. As for the robbery and some people saying maybe her engagement ring, maybe a ring was supposed to be part of the payoff. He could have told KB to get a large sum of cash so they could take a trip to see her family, and the robbery was payoff for committing the murder. I also thought LE might have found towels that match hers at WM, maybe washed or bleached, but used in the cleanup. Of course, he might have washed and dried towels, sheets, etc. at her house, if they found body fluids on the mattress. They could have found evidence on the washer itself. The problem if it is PF's semen is that he will say they had consensual sex and it could be true.

I have thought from the beginning that he picked up the baby and took her to his mom's before he did anything else. JMO.

It could be one human hair found in that horse wagon? You extract DNA from the bulb, so I guess the hair bulb is destroyed after that.

 

[The Night Watchman]

I can't figure out how the initial LE search of KB's condo turned up no evidence of foul play. And the second search did. This doesn't compute to me.

We know that LE found evidence and took items from the condo during the second search. What? There is speculation of blood or matter related to violence.

The we hear the shocking charges of solicitation to murder soon after.

Maybe the evidence in the second condo search was not directly related to violence and body fluids. It could be evidence that the person that was solicited only knew about. The guy that was talking and implicating PF.

Possibly they have hard evidence on this guy and he provided specific information for the second condo search. Possibly a location within the house where there is evidence of his actions, or where he left his own DNA- proving he was at a crime scene.

In a condo he would never be in, unless he was committing a crime.

Murder.

 

[enelram]

PF has no moral compass. Makes you wonder why.

Here Here. thank You.

for anyone interested in criminals' minds and how and why they
end up being criminals, read up on the latest studies.

For narcissists....."Deprivation and Rejection by early objects
(persons) provide the framework for narcissistic disturbances in
homicidal adolescents."

IMO, these boys were emotionally neglected, probably raised
themselves with little parental involvement, did not receive
the time or attention from parent(s) and never learned to
be good citizens.

 

[otto]

Yes, but unless you have an incinerator like Dellen Millard, you will not accomplish that. Besides, in an open burn barrel his mother would not have been able to ignore the hideous stench for hours.

These murders were discussed a couple of years ago. The murderer's parents lived on the 40 acre property. It was the first time I truly understood that bodies could be burned without an incinerator:

" ... aerial photos were displayed showing what the prosecution says are three bodies laid out on the property where a triple murder suspect lived. The photos also show smoke from a burn barrel and the shadow of a person standing nearby.
...

The bodies of the missing family members have never been found, but jurors have been told DNA from all three, as well as tooth and bone fragments, were found at the farm ...

The prosecution's theory is that the bodies were burned there. A small tooth believed to belong to a child was also discovered in a pile of ashes on the farm."​

Tears in courtroom as jurors in murder trial shown aerial images Crown says are bodies on farm | CBC News

 

[Esma]

I can't figure out how the initial LE search of KB's condo turned up no evidence of foul play. And the second search did. This doesn't compute to me.

We know that LE found evidence and took items from the condo during the second search. What? There is speculation of blood or matter related to violence.

The we hear the shocking charges of solicitation to murder soon after.

Maybe the evidence in the second condo search was not directly related to violence and body fluids. It could be evidence that the person that was solicited only knew about. The guy that was talking and implicating PF.

Possibly they have hard evidence on this guy and he provided specific information for the second condo search. Possibly a location within the house where there is evidence of his actions, or where he left his own DNA- proving he was at a crime scene.

In a condo he would never be in, unless he was committing a crime.

Murder.

I agree. I think they were looking for a DNA match to their 3rd party suspect. It’s not clear to me how many samples they want to consumptively test- one or multiple.

 

[enelram]

I don't think he loves his Mom, probably hates her because she has a tight hold on him and won't let him go. MOO.

Many years ago there was an interesting book written by
a psychologist called:
"Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love them"
The author discussed this personality type as someone
who "needs" women for his own purposes, uses but really
can't stand the women. He doesn't take well to correction, criticsm or disagreement from the women. When he's
crossed, it's not pretty.
They NEED Women but HATE them.

 

[MsBetsy]

PF has no moral compass. Makes you wonder why.

I'm curious to know more about his past, and the family dynamics, especially during his childhood. There has been no mention of his father. I'm wondering if he was even around during his childhood. Maybe he was out of the picture and his mother formed an unhealthy bond with the youngest child. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

Many years ago there was an interesting book written by
a psychologist called:
"Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love them"
The author discussed this personality type as someone
who "needs" women for his own purposes, uses but really
can't stand the women. He doesn't take well to correction, criticsm or disagreement from the women. When he's
crossed, it's not pretty.
They NEED Women but HATE them.

Yes, they see the women in their lives as possessions, or objects they can control. When the woman cannot be controlled any more they are no longer any use to them. Imo