CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #20 *ARREST*

[mtnlites]

After someone mentioned PF had an unusual look (possibly autistic), I checked out the court video. Something seems odd, but I wouldn't know. I do wonder now at his education/intellectual level. But maybe all the legalese didn't make sense to him...section # this and that, etc..

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This is the arrignment off YouTube. Hopefully that's ok...

Those things don't have to be one and the same. Someone can have a high level of intellect without having reached a high level of education. Similarly, I know plenty of educated people who are dumb as bricks. I wouldn't assess his intellect based on a court video considering that sometimes it's even confusing for those of us who follow these things to understand.

 

[24Brix]

Apologies if this has been shared and discussed previously. I haven’t seen it mentioned since I began following this case so I suspect it may be “new” for others as well.

The Zillow record for KB’s home in WP includes 23 photos of the interior and exterior — presumably taken when the previous owner listed it for sale and KB purchased it. (The floorplan is easily discernible. I hadn’t realized how small it is, only 750 sq. ft. — a LR, 2 BR’s, 1 BA, and KT.) Seeing the low knee-wall on the upstairs loft really bothers me. KB is so small and PF is so much larger that, if there was a physical altercation upstairs, she could have very easily ended up going over it, landing on the hard tile floor of the kitchen below. (MOO.)

Here’s the link to the site and the photos. Again, apologies if this is old info. It’s totally new to me.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/269-E-Lake-Ave-Woodland-Park-CO-80863/62719652_zpid/

 

[SandyQLS]

I had read that too, and I don't mean to single you out, but does anyone have proof of that? Where did that come from?

I thought it was the brother who said breakfast.

https://www.anglenews.com/news/us-news/search-expands-for-missing-colorado-mother-kelsey-berreth/

"... Berreth, mother to a one-year-old child, is described as 5ft3in tall and weighing 110 pounds Clint said his sister had made cinnamon rolls for Thanksgiving breakfast and the remainder were still on top of her stove …"

 

[Mom24]

Haunting image over mine shaft appears during hunt for missing mom
Here's an interesting article about the possibility of hiding a body in a mine shaft. Fox31 checked out some unused mines and found that while they're supposed to be closed off or not able to be accessed, many were wide open.
Now Cripple Creek does have an operational mine, but part of it is historic and no longer used with, and it contains a shaft that drops 300 ft. I can see how a mine shaft in an area like this would be almost impossible to fully search.
Cripple Creek & Victor Gold Mine - Wikipedia

 

[Gardener1850]

After someone mentioned PF had an unusual look (possibly autistic), I checked out the court video. Something seems odd, but I wouldn't know. I do wonder now at his education/intellectual level. But maybe all the legalese didn't make sense to him...section # this and that, etc..

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This is the arrignment off YouTube. Hopefully that's ok...

He doesn't seem autistic to me at all. Nor does he seem slow intellectually. I think he looks partly concerned/worried for his future and partly angry. I think he is angry that he has been caught and arrested and that the State has not yet revealed what exactly they have against him. Does he know who betrayed him? Maybe he does. Maybe not. So far, PF's not talking. But by the look on his face, PF might blurt something out in anger/frustration at any minute. MOO.

 

[MassGuy]

Haunting image over mine shaft appears during hunt for missing mom
Here's an interesting article about the possibility of hiding a body in a mine shaft. Fox31 checked out some unused mines and found that while they're supposed to be closed off or not able to be accessed, many were wide open.
Now Cripple Creek does have an operational mine, but part of it is historic and no longer used with, and it contains a shaft that drops 300 ft. I can see how a mine shaft in an area like this would be almost impossible to fully search.
Cripple Creek & Victor Gold Mine - Wikipedia

That’s why they’ll likely never find the body of Susan Powell.

They’re tough to search, and it’s just not feasible to search them all.

I hope she’s not in a location like that.

 

[chi123]

Haunting image over mine shaft appears during hunt for missing mom
Here's an interesting article about the possibility of hiding a body in a mine shaft. Fox31 checked out some unused mines and found that while they're supposed to be closed off or not able to be accessed, many were wide open.
Now Cripple Creek does have an operational mine, but part of it is historic and no longer used with, and it contains a shaft that drops 300 ft. I can see how a mine shaft in an area like this would be almost impossible to fully search.
Cripple Creek & Victor Gold Mine - Wikipedia

I thought about this possibility too, unfortunately if she’s in there I don’t think they’d ever find her.

 

[Mom24]

And this put out to warn people of mine shafts - https://gunnisoncrestedbutte.com/wp-content/uploads/DRMS062StayoutStayAliveBrochureFINAL-1.pdf

 

[Mom24]

I thought about this possibility too, unfortunately if she’s in there I don’t think they’d ever find her.

That there are so many of them and some of them are literally too dangerous to explore, if she's in one it would be like finding a needle in a haystack.

 

[Gardener1850]

Haunting image over mine shaft appears during hunt for missing mom
Here's an interesting article about the possibility of hiding a body in a mine shaft. Fox31 checked out some unused mines and found that while they're supposed to be closed off or not able to be accessed, many were wide open.
Now Cripple Creek does have an operational mine, but part of it is historic and no longer used with, and it contains a shaft that drops 300 ft. I can see how a mine shaft in an area like this would be almost impossible to fully search.
Cripple Creek & Victor Gold Mine - Wikipedia

Here is Kristal's thread: CO - CO - Kristal Reisinger, 29, Crestone, 13 July 2016
That's an unusual case, full of mysteries as well IMO.

 

[Jessthinkin]

I dunno, that looks real to me.

He doesn’t have that stone faced demeanor of a guy like Scott Peterson, or even Chris Watts.

I think a lot of people will look at that and see what they want to see though.

I agree... my impression is that he looks scared, especially at the beginning and then again when they’re discussing the new DNA testing....
If I were innocent, arrested, and called into court I’m pretty sure my primary emotion would be righteous anger, I think, and I also predict I would be engaging with my lawyers via at least eye contact, if not questions about the proceedings, etc... If unjustly accused, I don’t think I’d feel primarily afraid.... Although, I’ve never been through that, so who knows...

 

[Gardener1850]

I thought about this possibility too, unfortunately if she’s in there I don’t think they’d ever find her.

They found Erin Corwin's body in a mine shaft: GUILTY - CA - Erin Corwin, 19, pregnant, Twentynine Palms, 28 June 2014 - #14

 

[MassGuy]

I agree... my impression is that he looks scared, especially at the beginning and then again when they’re discussing the new DNA testing....
If I were innocent, arrested, and called into court I’m pretty sure my primary emotion would be righteous anger, I think, and I also predict I would be engaging with my lawyers via at least eye contact, if not questions about the proceedings, etc... If unjustly accused, I don’t think I’d feel primarily afraid.... Although, I’ve never been through that, so who knows...

Yeah, I think that most innocent people would appear engaged, at the very least.

He looked like he wanted to disappear.

 

[Aydrianna523]

Those things don't have to be one and the same. Someone can have a high level of intellect without having reached a high level of education. Similarly, I know plenty of educated people who are dumb as bricks. I wouldn't assess his intellect based on a court video considering that sometimes it's even confusing for those of us who follow these things to understand.

Gotcha. I think he kinda reminded me of someone in my past who had a learning disability so I got to wondering. Its probably nothing. Trust me. I look goofy plenty.

 

[Jessthinkin]

They found Erin Corwin's body in a mine shaft: GUILTY - CA - Erin Corwin, 19, pregnant, Twentynine Palms, 28 June 2014 - #14

They did, but IIRC he took a friend or coworker to that exact mine a few weeks earlier, or told a friend about it, so they knew which mine to go look at.

 

[Gardener1850]

They did, but IIRC he took a friend or coworker to that exact mine a few weeks earlier, or told a friend about it, so they knew which mine to go look at.

It's been a while since I read about the case and admittedly I didn't follow it here-- only saw news articles but I recall they knew she was in a mine but had to search dozens of them before finding her. This article says it took the search team 7 weeks to find Erin: Untapped gold mine was site of Erin Corwin body

Some quotes (these may give an idea of how a skilled team could go about searching for Kelsey if info points to her being in a mine):

The cave team was assisted by Doug Billings, a cave and mine specialist, who cataloged mines to assist in the search for Erin. Billings said Monday that detectives showed him an area where they believed Erin may be found, then he drafted a map of the mines in the region, highlighting the mines that were most likely places to try to hide a body.

"There was so much evidence pointing in so many directions, I decided I was going to catalog every mine within a reasonable area," Billings said. "It ended up being 600, and still climbing, and these were just the large and modern mines. … But really, even with blind sight, we hit it almost dead on right in the beginning."

More than 100 mines were explored as part of the search for Erin, but many of these mines were searched before detectives showed the cave team where to prioritize. The sheriff's department used some form of electronic tracking — likely pings from a cell phone — to zero in on the area of the Rose of Peru Mining District, the Brooklyn Mining District and the Los Angeles Mining District.

Some mines were searched with dogs, who sniffed for the scent of human remains, and others were searched with customized camera rigs, lowered into the dark on cables. A few mines were short or shallow, and could be explored by a single team member in a matter of minutes. Other mines were large, requiring a spelunker to climb or rappel into the depths, combing every inch for clues.

In the end, Billings' theory turned out to be correct. Erin's body was found in one of the highlighted mines in the highest prioritized area. It was a gold mine, dug sometime in the '70s, last worked in the '80s, Billings said. The mine is not on any mine map because the map was drawn up in the late '60s.

The difference may be the geography, however, since Erin was in the desert. The CO mine search being done for Kristal Reisinger's case might show a more similar topography of how difficult the search would be. JMO.

 

[Concernedmamaof3]

It might be worth a look to see what other murders have happened in the Teller County area that might have given him some ideas.

I did a quick search. In last 10 years, there have been 3 murders in Teller county- 1 in 2011 and 2 in 2013.

It looks like there were no murders since 2007, until 25 year old John Byron Hogan in 2011. He was a caretaker who went missing and they found him a few days later in some brush. Law enforcement seemed to be very hush hush about details of his death, but it was ruled a homicide. It appears to be a cold case still. *one thing to note, the victim would be around PFs age I believe

https://www.gazette.com/news/death-of-man-in-teller-county-ruled-homicide-first-since/article_09afe259-f6af-5b19-8255-2bfbf0d0b594.amp.html

The next one looks interesting because there is speculation it might be murder for hire. Case is the murder of Colorado Proson Chief Tom Clements. The person who actually killed him died in a shoot out 2 days later, but cell records show it may have been ordered by a gang leader. *possible idea for murder for hire?

https://www.kdvr.com/2018/07/31/video-supports-evidence-of-conspiracy-in-murder-of-colorado-prison-chief-tom-clements/amp/

There appears to be a number of murder-suicides and one bigger case of a 15 year old, Jacob Ind, murdering his parents in 1992. What’s interesting about that case is in June or July 2018 he was back in court requesting a new trial. It looks like he enlisted a friend to help with the murders.

Double murder defendant in 1992 case appears in Teller County courtroom Friday

 

[katydid23]

Hello - I have been lurking around for over a month, but this is my first time posting. I have also never followed a case before, but something about Kelsey’s disappearance just grabbed my attention and now I’m hooked.

One thing that continues to bother me is PF’s motive. I have heard people speculating about custody and/or child support but that is hard for me to believe. I do not know about Colorado custody laws, but in California (where I live) a mother can’t just move with the child. Unless she can prove that she is the primary caregiver (ie father only sees child a few times a month) she has no more “right” to simply pick up and move the baby then the father would. As a matter of fact, since the baby’s routine has already been set in Woodland Park, she would have to get Patrick’s permission to move the baby (based on how things are in CA).

In regards to child support - if both KB and PF continued to share custody (and again KB can’t just make the decision she no longer wants to share, they would need to go to court) the court looks at the income for both parents. Therefore if KB is making more than PF, then he would not owe her child support. She actually may need to pay him if she is making more.

Again, perhaps Colarado is different than California, but my sister went through all of these custody issues with my twin niece/nephew when they were 4. My sister moved 30 min away after the split and she couldn’t even move their preschool to the city she now lived in (without the fathers approval) - she had to commute them there and back during her custody days.

This was a long post (I apologize!) but it just makes me question PF being motivated to murder for custody or child support based on my knowledge of custody and child support rules. MOO

There are a lot of murder cases, in which custody is the prime motive behind the killing.

Just as you described above, there are a lot of laws and restrictions that both parents need to follow. Quite often, one of the parents just wants to have full custody, without having to co-parent anymore. No more drop offs and pick ups, or discussions about child rearing, or arguments about new girl friends/boyfriends, etc. No arguing over Holidays or birthdays or what religion, if any, the child will be raised in.

No more costly attorneys or expensive court cases if one wants to change custody arrangements.

It is like parental 'freedom' to have full legal custody, and some will kill for that privilege, as we have seen before.

 

[katydid23]

I had read that too, and I don't mean to single you out, but does anyone have proof of that? Where did that come from?

I believe it was her brother who said it looked like she had made them for breakfast. So I assumed a couple of them were already eaten, and that could be seen by plates in the sink, for example, etc.

 

[Tricia]

Hey Everyone,

This thread will shut down for a bit while I get the next thread ready. Be back soon.

 

[Tricia]

Please continue the discussion on THREAD 21