CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #22 *ARREST*

[Trudie]

Why would she have had full custody? I’ve never heard that she ever had full custody of the baby.

Idk what kind of custody arrangement they had. I’ve not seen a document.

 

[Jupiter05]

I have a legal question. If a judge rules that the medical records of PF including psych records (visits to a therapist, psychiatrist, psychologist) do not have to be turned over to the DA, can PF's pharmacy still be subpoened? Could his pharmacy be forced to reveal his prescriptions?

No, due to HIPPA laws.

 

[girlhasnoname]

He's the father and so he has a right to be at the hearings. They will listen to his wishes but ultimately determine what is the best interest of the child.

In CPS cases they intervene to get custody, in my experience. Not visitation. They make orders for visitation for a parent but not often for third parties like grandparents, generally. Although it is possible. That typically happens more with guardianship cases or cases where grandparents intervene in a custody case between parents.

It's true that she has spent time with PF's family and that would be something the court would give great weight to.

My personal feelings are negative toward custody of the child to his family. I have a bad feeling about them. I suspect that is an enabling, dysfunctional environment much like the families of many such murderers are.

My feeling is that Kelsey's death is related to possession of the child, entitlement and enmeshment and I don't believe that those attitudes came from nowhere. To me, unsupervised visitation to that family would feel scary.

So I hope her family got the baby. They seem like gentle, normal people. And her mother apparently saw the baby frequently so she's not a stranger.

^^ THIS ^^

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

I have a legal question. If a judge rules that the medical records of PF including psych records (visits to a therapist, psychiatrist, psychologist) do not have to be turned over to the DA, can PF's pharmacy still be subpoened? Could his pharmacy be forced to reveal his prescriptions?

I think HIPA laws would cover that.

 

[enelram]

Maybe PF planted the phone in Idaho nurse’s vehicle without her knowledge. She found it, turned it on and . . . PING!

You're so kind thinking....whereas I think nurse was in his truck
on Tgiving Day when he paid a visit to KB, PF comes out to truck
and says "Hold this phone, and hold this purse and oh hold the baby while I .......
He'd already knocked KB out cold and had to go in and finish up.
Then later on he came back to clean up. Remember he had 10
days.

 

[PommyMommy]

How do we know Idaho nurse was in CO during Thanksgiving?

• One of the people also stated that the woman was in Colorado around Thanksgiving, which could explain how he the phone was transported

Patrick Frazee 'was having an affair for months' with Idaho nurse | Daily Mail Online

 

[TexLil]

From the above link:

"DailyMail.com spoke with two people who know the nurse professionally, and they both said that they had been told that Frazee was having an affair with the woman.

The woman was divorced from her husband a few years back they explained, and had met Frazee at a rodeo."

So Imo it could be that he was dating IW (Idaho Woman) first? Maybe KB got pregnant and moved closer and it ruined his freedom? Maybe he liked the long distance relationships. I wonder if IW knew about KB for very long. I wonder if KB knew about IW.

MOO

 

[Kapua]

Im curious about whether KB phone had a locking feature or password and if so, how did PF and company get around that.

I dont know the statistics about how many adults use the locking feature but I definitely use it and love it. I use a 4 digit PIN to get into my phone. I like it because if I leave my phone anywhere I dont want others to be able to get into my phone. More chances of having it returned to me.

I am the complete opposite. I don't want to enter a PIN and my fingerprints are hard to recognize. I have enough PINs and passwords for work and don't do anything on my phone that would be remotely interesting to anyone other than me. I use my home computer for banking. My phone has no personal data other than my contacts. So I think it's a stretch to assume that "most people" use the locking features of their phones. Some of us do not.

 

[Madison418]

I think there are more people involved than PF,and the nurse. It's just a matter of time before they go down too.
MOO.

The idea that it's possible 4 people other than PF knew that he wanted KB dead and no one said a word is mind boggling. This poor woman. Who was looking out for her?? She had a 1 year old baby. Just infuriating to me

 

[ilovematt]

I used to have a boss who would annoyingly schedule text messages for exactly 8 AM. Hypothetically, could he have seen nurse and given her a “Christmas gift” and told her not to open it until she got home, then it was an IPhone so when she turned it on the texts sent that he had previously drafted? I’m just looking for a way that this person who must be capable to have the career she has, could have got mixed up in this innocently. Specualating and MOO

 

[justaparent]

I don't think PF is talking, but I can definitely see a scorned woman eliminating her rival and setting up the man who dumped her. Strange things do happen.

I do think they are waiting for someone to flip on one or two others. Possibly hoping that one of the “helpers“ will flip on the actual murderer and other helper, if indeed three were involved. I’m beginning to think the Idaho nurse was FAR more involved than we know, start to finish. Just my own opinions.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I don't think the crime of murder ends with her last breath. They are still taking something from her person or presence by threat of force or intimidation. And murder is that to the extreme. MOO, but I believe that the crime ends when he/they stop "crime-ing". Meaning her death, the removal of her body, etc. are all part of one event. Which makes the theft of her phone and purse felony robbery since it was all part of that single event. And I think this is especially true if there is evidence indicating that he planned all of these events in advance as a part of a single plot. At least, that's the way I see it...

I believe it's been explained that the victim's emotions are key to the legal deginition of robbery. IIRC fear and intimidation were the two emotional states mentioned? So obviously the person must be alive and conscious in order to experience those emotions. This is why taking something after her death isn't robbery but rather theft or similar.

I doubt the precise timing or physical location of the item stolen matters. In other words, if someone bursts into KB's house and says "hand over your phone and wallet" and then a moment later kills her, I assume that would qualify as felony murder, regardless whether the phone and wallet were physically in her hands or sitting on the table at the time, and, actually, regardless whether the killer(s) left with those items or not.

 

[NoeticSoul]

I wonder if all the money that has been donated for baby K is now a big motive for PF's family to go after custody.

What donated money?

 

[missy1974]

There was no determination by a court as to the child's custody, prior to this. PF had possession of his child and had automatic parental rights to make decisions about his child's care, education, health, etc., if he was on the birth certificate or otherwise signed a voluntary declaration of patnernity, until he was arrested and the state took the child into protective custody.

In a juvenile dependency case like this kids are taken away from parents/guardians and placed in state custody when there is evidence of abuse or neglect or a situation like this where the parents aren't able to care for the child.

In such a case, the court doesn't technically decide who gets "custody". They used the word in this case but it's not the same as a family law case. Instead, the court decides whether the child remains in state care while the parent takes measures to get back on track (or they decide to return the child to the parent quickly, when able), it decides who the child will live with while the case is pending (foster care or a relative or other person) and ultimately it decides (one year only in CO from what I saw), whether the child will be returned to the parent or freed for adoption.

That's it.

In the case of someone incarcerated for over a year but not yet found guilty, perhaps they could determine that there is no need to keep the case open if the incarcerated parent has made arrangements for the child's care and has asked that a guardianship case be started so that when the dependency court case closes, a third party can be granted custody while he is incarcerated.

I need to see what the state laws are like with regard to that. I mean being in jail obviously means the parent is unable to provide direct care for the child but let's say their kid was in boarding school, had a trust and relatives to care for her on holidays. Does the fact that the parents are incarcerated but not yet found guilty mean that the parental rights are severed after a year?

I don't know. I think in many states jailed parents can retain rights. Even those sentenced to prison.

There are things about the dependency case that interest me. It seems quick decisions were made to remove the baby from grandma and have the state step in.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

Thanks for all your help and information!

 

[Kapua]

So Imo it could be that he was dating IW (Idaho Woman) first? Maybe KB got pregnant and moved closer and it ruined his freedom? Maybe he liked the long distance relationships. I wonder if IW knew about KB for very long. I wonder if KB knew about IW.

MOO

I think a poster determined that KB moved to CO before she got pregnant. That was a few threads ago. Someone refresh our collective memory.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

She's a nurse. Would this be someone his mother had known? Maybe she visited them and he stuck the phone in her belongings?

And when she unpacked her belongings, the phone magically texted Doss Aviation and Patrick?

And she never called the FBI to report finding this mysterious phone after visiting the home of Patrick Frazee, a suspect in Kelsey Berreth's disappearance?

 

[Madison418]

• One of the people also stated that the woman was in Colorado around Thanksgiving, which could explain how he the phone was transported

Patrick Frazee 'was having an affair for months' with Idaho nurse | Daily Mail Online

(Thanks Pommy! I am so busy at work, hard to keep up with this case).

That's just a little too convenient IMO

 

[zea mays]

I’m not sure if it was ever mentioned, but did ANYONE from PF’s family EVER publicly ask for help, attend any vigils, etc when KB was reported missing?

The mother of your granddaughter/niece is missing and you don’t care enough to either try to look for her, post missing fliers, etc BUT NOW you want visitation or custody rights?

Can a judge look at that? If they didn’t care enough to publicize that she was missing, how do you know that they would speak kindly of KB to the baby if they were to get visitation or custody rights? It’s just so strange. IMO

BM. Not that I've seen reported.

What donated money?

Some of the FB groups are spearheading a baby registry for the baby and there is a donation fund for the family, afaik. MOO.

 

[oviedo]

I don't sense that the leak is related to the custody case.

Guardians have to do with guardianship cases. Not CPS/DHS cases. I mean naming a proposed guardian could help the court in a dependency case determine who might be a good fit. But none of that is binding in any court.

Here's an example. Let's say the parents name uncle Rick as the proposed guardian. But after they die, uncle Rick gets cancer and can't do it. Or becomes an alcoholic. Or divorces prior to the deaths and moves out of state and hasn't seen the child in years while other relatives have a greater bond.

The courts just view that stuff as evidence of who the parents felt would be best to care for the child.

But in this case the quick decision by DHS or whatever they call it there, to place the minor in the care of the maternal grandparents pending hearing, and then to keep the kid there or on a temporary basis, is interesting. Especially given the child's apparent relationship with and contact with paternal grandmother.

PF can't be given custody if he's in jail. This case came about because mother is presumed dead and father has been arrested. So he is unable to care for the child.

But his parental rights have not been stripped.

Thank you - always insightful information from you.

 

[Smoneywcbs]

With the nurse involved now, this is giving me flashbacks of Jodi Arias. JA drove 15 hours to murder TA. Why would a nurse drive nearly 12 hours only to drive back just to ping a cell phone? This isn’t a little task. IMO this behavior is desperate and obsessive, to say the least.

JA used fuel tanks and made calls in order to deceive, then took pics at crime scene. Nurse possibly sent text to KB’s employer and transported phone 12 hours to ping the location?

Maybe PF was angry, had some drunk talks with friends saying he wanted KB dead, then expressed those sentiments to the nurse? What if he couldn’t bring himself to kill the mother of his child but the nurse took it upon herself to eliminate her rival - thinking she’d finally get PF once KB was eliminated?

Just trying to look at all angles. IMO!