CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #22 *ARREST*

[InvSmith]

So what typically happens in a case where the parent is incarcerated indefinitely in dependency cases? Whether trial is just dragging or whether they've been convicted or sentenced to years. Are they able to preserve parental rights and be determined to be "reunified" with child even if they aren't likely to live with the child again?

TIA!

Being incarcerated does not in and of itself impact you as a parent. It is the binding marriage or common law and relationship to child and responsibility to the child that matters. For example, many prisons have established programs for helping foster relationships with children. It is not perfect but better than nothing research says. Some families do decide to turnover all rights to one parent depending on the length of incarceration or divorce. The goal is always to keep a family together unless not fit for the child. This may be visitation or as a family or not. It also goes the other way we are legally responsible for our children.

 

[gitana1]

Just to jump off and add, the original placement with CB is what's called an emergency placement. Mom is dead, Dad is arrested, the child becomes a ward of the state of Colorado. Not a ward of the F family or the B family, but a ward of the state. Doesn't matter that there is grandparents nearby or far away, in ill health or even in better financial situation because the child isn't a ward of the family, she's a ward of the state. Be thankful she was placed back with a relative because she could have been placed in a foster home. The child doesn't belong to one family because they've babysat her more or because they live closer, or even if they spend more time with her, it's about a variety of issues. And in all the determinations made, the state of colorado decided it was in the best interest of the child to be with her maternal grandmother until they could reach a final decision on custody. Personally, I'm happy she's with the B family for a number of reasons, she's out of the media limelight, she's not in a foster home with complete strangers and she can be shielded from what's going on by being in another state.

Great post. I agree with all.

 

[Trudie]

Interesting. From SP, we get nothing. As far as I understand, he even planned to kill AF, to shut her up.

CW after arrest felt guilt, but not for what he had done. He felt remorse for spoiling the life of NK. Understanding he was going down, he tried to protect the one for whom he had done this horrible thing. At least living his imaginary world, still. And trying to reach out for the only person he respected in his family, his dad. (He also might have missed the footsteps of his kids, and this fact genuinely surprised him - MOO).

It will be interesting to see how PF eventually treats this IN, whether he'd try to put some blame on her or protect her as well.

PF is described as "a recluse" by the neighbors. It is sometimes hard to understand how these people think because it is very difficult for them to express their feelings in words. However, what interests me is whether PF initially got to his plan on his own, or whether the idea was born out of someone's words. It does not exculpate him in any way, but he could hear, "if only she did not live so close, you could..." and having a single-track mind, he'd start working at it.

I also wonder what sparked his plan.
With the little we know, I see blame being cast elsewhere, many times over.
I wish the solicitation to not be true. It will be even horrible to know for certain P discussed his wishes with another, almost 90 days prior to acting. And that person apparently didn’t report it.
MOO

 

[SandyQLS]

Just to jump off and add, the original placement with CB is what's called an emergency placement. Mom is dead, Dad is arrested, the child becomes a ward of the state of Colorado. Not a ward of the F family or the B family, but a ward of the state. Doesn't matter that there is grandparents nearby or far away, in ill health or even in better financial situation because the child isn't a ward of the family, she's a ward of the state. Be thankful she was placed back with a relative because she could have been placed in a foster home. The child doesn't belong to one family because they've babysat her more or because they live closer, or even if they spend more time with her, it's about a variety of issues. And in all the determinations made, the state of colorado decided it was in the best interest of the child to be with her maternal grandmother until they could reach a final decision on custody. Personally, I'm happy she's with the B family for a number of reasons, she's out of the media limelight, she's not in a foster home with complete strangers and she can be shielded from what's going on by being in another state.

Looking back on how all of this unfolded, maybe you hit on the reasoning: to get the baby away from the media and turmoil by placing her with CB. That would be in the baby's best interest.

SW executed for 3 days at SF/PF ranchette Fri-Sat-Sun 12/14-15-16

5 LE cars went charging back up to the ranchette iirc Mon 12/17

PF and 2 men went to WM iirc Tues 12/18

PF arrested Fri 12/21
baby removed Fri 12/21

The atmosphere was a circus there with all the media attention. I bet they were camped out near SF's home and hounding her for an interview, phone ringing off the hook. DHS would have no way to know when the circus will abate, so far removal does seem best.

BTW it does not escape my attention that DA May specifically stated that his office would not try the criminal case in the media .... then his office fought to have cameras in the courtroom, fought against a pre-trial gag order, continues to parade PF before the media for each appearance. j/s

 

[Lhughessk]

I find it interesting and very strange that BOTH GF and PF’s sister filed for custody. I would think grandma would have supported the sister, or sister supported the grandma....and unite, this seems like a division in the family IMO

Or, more likely, the family is offering an Option B in case the judge doesn’t like Option A. Not putting all your eggs in one basket is the smart play.

 

[SandyQLS]

hopefully CB was able to retrieve things from K’s home.
I really doubt Mrs. F turned things over. Since she wants custody. Moo

If I were CB or DB, no way would I set foot in that townhome or retrieve anything. I'd call a housekeeper to clean out the food and a locksmith to seal it tight, come back months later.

 

[Charlot123]

I think in county lock up they might be in the “do over” stage. Wishing for a “do over”. Maybe not do the crime, maybe do it dif’, etc.
I’ve followed crime for too many years, read thousands of true crime books, etc. of course I was addicted to Lock Up, lol. It seems to me these guys go to prison & simply adapt to a somewhat military lifestyle. Obviously, they have to adapt. I think prison is not as bad as what we envision.
It also occurs to me after time, they give no thought to their crime. Or, the grief of losing their freedom is similar to someone mourning a death. It gets easier or at least monopolizes less of our mind, over time. Is life in prison a fraternity of sorts? I think so. My sister is a case manager at a large male prison. She’s always astounded at how quickly a new inmate acclimatizes to his situation.



moo

BMM

From an ex-convict, I heard that murder was not a horrible crime in the eyes of the inmates, while any form of child abuse or rape, was.

So perhaps, being among other murderers "normalizes" own acts, and people stop thinking of them? At the same time, parole time occupies more and more time in the thinking of the criminals?

And I bet from time to time, they see dreams about past free life, and wake up, weeping.
It might be the most difficult part.

MOO

 

[Jessthinkin]

If I were CB or DB, no way would I set foot in that townhome or retrieve anything. I'd call a housekeeper to clean out the food and a locksmith to seal it tight, come back months later.

Have there been reports of them trying to retrieve things from the townhome?

 

[MyBelle]

I don't believe there is ever a motive or reason that can be considered justifiable or understandable in a case such as this, involving people that are capable of doing the things that seem to have been done here. After reading through all the recent articles and sifting through all the recent video, to catch up after the holidays, I am leaning towards the idea that this case involves a once in a generation, narcissistic, sociopath type who is incapable of understanding what feelings are. Watching PFs behavior in the court video from the other day, I saw a guy who was not phased, even a little bit, by what was going on around him. It was almost like he didn't really get that everything being discussed had anything to do with him. I didn't see anxiety, worry, fear, sadness, anything. I would bet we will learn that this guy was able make everyone believe he was a salt of the earth, great man. At the core of that man was something that made him capable of planning a terrible crime and then carrying that crime out against the mother of his child. And, he truly believed he would walk away untouched. I think it takes a truly sick individual to do what was likely done in this case. He wanted to do whatever he did. That's it. That was the reasoning and that was the motive. I don't believe it will go much further than that.

I think we all share the opinion the murder of KB was not in self-defense. There is no other justifiable reason for murder. None. JMO

 

[MassGuy]

Yeah, it’s not like police and the prosecution ever get it wrong. Since they’re always right 100% of the time, we should assume the defendant is guilty unless and until he can PROVE himself innocent. And we should hope PF is railroaded throughout this process because who cares? He must have done it or else he wouldn’t be in this position. And while we know next to nothing about his family, they must be toxic and dysfunctional. If they were a good family, this wouldn’t have happened to them. The product of a good home would never do something like this or if they do, it’s somebody else’s family, not mine. This sort of thing is never going to happen to me or mine because we were raised better. Constitution, schmonstitution. You don’t need to assert your rights if you’re a law-abiding citizen!

Right? Does that sound good? Not to me, it doesn’t. (In case anyone missed it, the above was sarcasm.). JMO

No one has said they hope he gets railroaded.

No one has said that law enforcement or the prosecution always gets it right.

We are not on a jury, and we are free to decide what we think of him, and the case against him.

I think he’s done.

 

[Hatch]

I've witnessed a lot of things and can stand a lot of difficult situations, but I'm afraid this would scare the livin' bejeebees out of me.
MOO, MOO

I would also like to sit down with him for a hour and chat.

I can’t even look at those sites and read their garbage.

I was over peeping and jaw drop there were pictures of IN plastered everywhere , you have to review some comments to see them, most of the other BS is just simply BS

 

[gitana1]

Yeah, it’s not like police and the prosecution ever get it wrong. Since they’re always right 100% of the time, we should assume the defendant is guilty unless and until he can PROVE himself innocent. And we should hope PF is railroaded throughout this process because who cares? He must have done it or else he wouldn’t be in this position. And while we know next to nothing about his family, they must be toxic and dysfunctional. If they were a good family, this wouldn’t have happened to them. The product of a good home would never do something like this or if they do, it’s somebody else’s family, not mine. This sort of thing is never going to happen to me or mine because we were raised better. Constitution, schmonstitution. You don’t need to assert your rights if you’re a law-abiding citizen!

Right? Does that sound good? Not to me, it doesn’t. (In case anyone missed it, the above was sarcasm.). JMO

The sarcasm was obvious. As to his family it has nothing to do with smugly thinking we are safe because our families are better. For me
It has to do with following these cases intently for two decades, 14 as a sleuther and 17 years as a family law attorney seeing what dysfunction looks likes up close.

People bucked hard against my (and others') predictions about CW's family. But we were spot on. Not due to magic or luck. Due to experience.

The signs match up here. A young man has lived his whole adult life with his mother. He doesn't seem to have done much with the resources available to him. Does that make him bad or a murderer? No. There are many innocent reasons why an adult might live with parents or not do well in business. And that says nothing about character.

But in context of the DA charging him with the murder of the mother of his child, a supposed fiancée who he never moved in with nor married, it's fits a pattern we see over and over again in these cases. Not all the time it a lot. I mean there's a reason why a fully grown man and father feels entitled to plan and follow through on the murder of the mother of his baby. There's a reason he thinks he should do something like that. That that is an option.

It is my gut PF fits the profile.

 

[Hatch]

Wonder in LWOP if rights are preserved.

Surely

 

[MyBelle]

They try to preserve those rights as much as possible and practicable. I represent a guy serving ten years. He gets monthly 15 min video conferences with his kids. As long as the child isn’t the victim, I don’t see the rights being terminated.

Murder of the child's mother doesn't make the child a victim? Wow.

 

[gitana1]

Being incarcerated does not in and of itself impact you as a parent. It is the binding marriage or common law and relationship to child and responsibility to the child that matters. For example, many prisons have established programs for helping foster relationships with children. It is not perfect but better than nothing research says. Some families do decide to turnover all rights to one parent depending on the length of incarceration or divorce. The goal is always to keep a family together unless not fit for the child. This may be visitation or as a family or not. It also goes the other way we are legally responsible for our children.

Sorry. I disagree strongly. It absolutely impacts a parent. It impacts their ability to develop the relationship. To maintain the bond through day to day care. The pain of separation follows the children for life. The pain of not having continuous access to a parent is terribly detrimental to a child.

And it creates a status quo with whatever situation the child has been in during incarceration that can impact where the child goes or stays once the parent is released.

 

[Charlot123]

BTW, it is cold in CO, and PF is always delivered in short-sleeved prison suit. Meanwhile, the convoys are dressed quite warm.
I wonder if PF is feeling chronically warm - indicating he is more anxious than one would think.

(At the same time, it negates the idea posted by someone - that PF had addiction issues. Withdrawal from opiates would make one shiver).

 

[Hatch]

Lol, if he’s convicted, he can farm at the gray bar hotel. Several CO state prisons still farm. I don’t think he’ll do a lot of riding & roping. He might have days he’d like to have a rope in his cell........

As recent as Dec 15 he had add up for cattle to be sold. Was he anticipating his arrest? It was on a FB post and I am not sure how to link it here complete with date and picture.

 

[LietKynes]

BBM

"Orchestrated" ...sounds conniving.

But respectfully, CB was being denied access to her own granddaughter; by PF or his advice -- which was being followed.

The last person that should be victim-blamed is Kelsey's mom.
She will never get to see or hear her daughter again.
Imo, she didn't "orchestrate" anything, but wanted to go about seeing Kelsey's baby in a LEGAL way.

That way was through the court system --she (CB) couldn't just take the baby from PF's mom.
The best path to take is the law-abiding way.
KB's mom understands this.

I think the other part as well is Websleuth exclusively is not for discussing uncharged family members. It will get you censored real quick. This board is more discussing case of victim KB and the case that might help unless files are posted on the custody. Imo. Blessings.[/QUOTE]
Emph. mine

My post was reflecting another post that was quoted. I was not discussing uncharged family members, but posting concerns about the way it was worded.

I may have misinterpreted the poster I quoted; that's not unusual in a forum where people are typing as opposed to talking.
Words without inflection can be misunderstood. Which has happened to myself more than once.

The facts as we know them indicate CPS made the decisions and neither family would've had precedence.
We do not know if CB initiated the placement of KB's child. The most probable answer is that the courts decided.

Although it was surprising (imo) that CPS chose the Berreth's so suddenly.
No one needs to be censored here for discussing what is known fact--- that the baby was placed with the maternal relatives.

Posting and discussing are not accusing , neither are such posts attacking any uncharged members.... that is another issue entirely , which does not happen at WS.

And it's certain everyone here wants the best for Kelsey's daughter.

She is young enough to have little memory of this upheaval in her life.
Sad that she'll miss hearing her mother's voice as she grows up. There'll be a void for sure..
Hoping she'll be loved !

 

[Lhughessk]

We don’t KNOW this. Apparently PF prevented it, but that is all.

Yes, and we also don’t know what PF might have told his family regarding KB’s family. What if he, in an attempt to get them firmly in his corner, fed them a story about KB’s family being terrible people?

But even if that didn’t happen, it’s generally a problem in these circumstances to let the other side of the family see the child without some sort of legal ruling in place, of which there was none before now. If the two sides had met and CB had decided to run to the car and take off with K, there would have been nothing that SF could have done about it (I’m not saying CB would have done such a thing).

I think CB recognized the complication. In one of her TV interviews pre-arrest, remember how she was asked if she was going to try to see K, and after a long pause she said, “I don’t know.” If she was advised that a custody hearing was the best way to go, then there may have been little or no contact between the two sides to even make an attempt. Folks need to remember the time frame we’re talking about here. She reported KB missing on Dec. 2. Within the month, she had a custody hearing and was granted temporary custody. That isn’t a very long period of time to be “kept” from seeing the child.

 

[Mom24]

Yeah, it’s not like police and the prosecution ever get it wrong. Since they’re always right 100% of the time, we should assume the defendant is guilty unless and until he can PROVE himself innocent. And we should hope PF is railroaded throughout this process because who cares? He must have done it or else he wouldn’t be in this position. And while we know next to nothing about his family, they must be toxic and dysfunctional. If they were a good family, this wouldn’t have happened to them. The product of a good home would never do something like this or if they do, it’s somebody else’s family, not mine. This sort of thing is never going to happen to me or mine because we were raised better. Constitution, schmonstitution. You don’t need to assert your rights if you’re a law-abiding citizen!

Right? Does that sound good? Not to me, it doesn’t. (In case anyone missed it, the above was sarcasm.). JMO

Then logically the answer would be to never arrest anyone and throw out the baby and the bathwater because of a lack of perfection. When in actuality, based on the number of unsolved murder, missing and unidentified victims and a judicial system that is more intent on protecting perpetrators of crimes rather than its victims, I'd say not only does a person have to be proven guilty but proven beyond a preponderance of a doubt is unbelievable standard that in actuality lends to more criminals getting free than being incarcerated and far outscoring those few who get wrongly convicted. From my standpoint the railroading happens to victims more often than their predators.
And yes dysfunctional families lead to dysfunctional people, that's the nurture part of what's missing in those dysfunctional families that lead to a higher tendency for criminal activity, especially such a heinous act as killing and taking the life of another human being. To put it bluntly there's more than something off in a person's upbringing if he can't feel empathy for another human being because when someone kills another human being they are essentially killing themselves.
And finally, at last count, I don't recall taking another person's life or at the very least showing such disregard for the safety and well being of the mother of one's child who was missing for 10 days, a constitutional right. But maybe I missed that amendment in the bill of rights?