CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #31 *ARREST*

[haven71]

I agree, the financial motive seems logical from PF's perspective.

I don’t think so.

I mean IF he was so bad off why MURDER Kelsey for possibly a small metering of money throughout the years for baby K...why not just get KB to pay him child support and not risk going to jail for murder one? I bet KB was mostly paying for K’s materialistic needs anyway, I don’t think he dipped into his shallow pockets much. JMO

That’s why I still think it was primarily done for custody reasons. It’s likely Kelsey had had enough and had previously told him if he didn’t grow up, commit, and take on some of the financial responsibility then she would move back closer to her folks. That would likely be devastating to him as he seemed attached to Baby K. And Baby K was HIS more than hers in his mind.

Perhaps he knew those shoes (growing up, financial planning, and commitment) were too big for his tiny feet to fill so he planned to get rid of KB before she made any moves to get away. I think losing Baby K was his greatest fear.

 

[SandyQLS]

More research: A single ping can be traced to the accuracy of the GPS inside the phone, normally about a 6 meter circle. A search warrant is req’d, and it takes several days for special engineers to perform. Any time a dead phone is turned on, it will wait 3 minutes and then ping. Once communication is established, the phone will periodically query for a stronger signal and will ping that second tower. There is a short lapse before the first connection ends, in which the phone “cuts out”. If the phone doesn’t change location at all, but remains on, the tower will keep it connected for eight hours before breaking off. The FBI forensic unit has search warrants and phones. if the person that sent the two text messages on 11/25 had his/her own phone on hand and turned on in any mode, that phone will have pinged once, but more likely twice, within 8 hours plus and 8 hours minus the time of the ping of the victim’s phone.
My conclusion: If KK sent the texts, she's toast. If she didn't all the rest is just gossip.

The phone cannot be Schrodinger's cat. The R's stated that KK was in possession of KB's phone and the R's believe KK sent the texts per PF's instructions. KB's phone pinged near KK's home/work area.

I am going to believe that KK sent the texts, from Idaho, and related to the ping.

ETA:
@Dave F. if KK did not send the texts from the phone in Idaho, then who-where-how do you think the texts were sent?

 

[Love Never Fails]

I don’t think so.

I mean IF he was so bad off why MURDER Kelsey for possibly a small metering of money throughout the years for baby K...why not just get KB to pay him child support and not risk going to jail for murder one? I bet KB was mostly paying for K’s materialistic needs anyway, I don’t think he dipped into his shallow pockets much. JMO

That’s why I still think it was primarily done for custody reasons. It’s likely Kelsey had had enough and had previously told him if he didn’t grow up, commit, and take on some of the financial responsibility then she would move back closer to her folks. That would likely be devastating to him as he seemed attached to Baby K. And Baby K was HIS more than hers in his mind.

Perhaps he knew those shoes (growing up, financial planning, and commitment) were too big for his tiny feet to fill so he planned to get rid of KB before she made any moves to get away. I think losing Baby K was his greatest fear.

Agree this wasn’t about money. I also bet KB had health insurance for her and baby K through her job since he is self employed and he likely didn’t provide a penney. Somehow this was all about getting KB out of his life for good.

Thing is with these murderers, they are clueless. KB will forever be etched in his mind as he sits in a cell day after day after day.

 

[Artis]

Well, if you go into an interrogation without an attorney you stand an extremely good chance of exactly that happening.

Yes, but is it a typical strategy to set up a suspect, with an immunity deal, in order to give them the rope to hang themselves, get caught in lies and then immunity withdrawn - all pre-planned?

 

[NoeticSoul]

Agree this wasn’t about money. I also bet KB had health insurance for her and baby K through her job since he is self employed and he likely didn’t provide a penney. Somehow this was all about getting KB out of his life for good.

Thing is with these murderers, they are clueless. KB will forever be etched in his mind as he sits in a cell day after day after day.

bbm Karma will follow him for the rest of his days hopefully.

 

[scmom]

I don’t think so.

I mean IF he was so bad off why MURDER Kelsey for possibly a small metering of money throughout the years for baby K...why not just get KB to pay him child support and not risk going to jail for murder one? I bet KB was mostly paying for K’s materialistic needs anyway, I don’t think he dipped into his shallow pockets much. JMO

That’s why I still think it was primarily done for custody reasons. It’s likely Kelsey had had enough and had previously told him if he didn’t grow up, commit, and take on some of the financial responsibility then she would move back closer to her folks. That would likely be devastating to him as he seemed attached to Baby K. And Baby K was HIS more than hers in his mind.

Perhaps he knew those shoes (growing up, financial planning, and commitment) were too big for his tiny feet to fill so he planned to get rid of KB before she made any moves to get away. I think losing Baby K was his greatest fear.

I'm willing to consider custody also could be an issue for PF, but I have no personal knowledge of his supposed attachment to baby K. Right now none of us can do anything but speculate on PF's motives.

 

[SandyQLS]

Yes, but is it a typical strategy to set up a suspect, with an immunity deal, in order to give them the rope to hang themselves, get caught in lies and then immunity withdrawn - all pre-planned?

The supreme court ruled eons ago that the police can lie to suspects all they want about everything. Immunity from prosecution or deals for lesser sentences are made by the DA, not the police. In practice, police are unlikely to directly promise what they cannot deliver (immunity), but they are masters of allusion (alluding to an imaginary deal, for example) and manipulation as interrogation tactics, leading the suspect to believe. JMO.

ETA: There are links out there if you search with advice from lawyers.

Can the Police Lie to a Suspect? - Omaha Criminal Defense Lawyer | Petersen Criminal Defense

".... Explicit promises of help – they frequently offer to help you if you confess or provide them with useful information. Keep in mind, however, that only a prosecuting attorney can actually agree to a plea deal. A law enforcement officer doesn’t have the authority to do that. ..."

 

[yawningreyhound]

The phone cannot be Schrodinger's cat. The R's stated that KK was in possession of KB's phone and the R's believe KK sent the texts per PF's instructions. KB's phone pinged near KK's home/work area.

I am going to believe that KK sent the texts, from Idaho, and related to the ping.

ETA:
@Dave F. if KK did not send the texts from the phone in Idaho, then who-where-how do you think the texts were sent?

Aside: I'm thinking HOW does S's cat apply here? Had to google. I always get Pottenger's cats confused with Schrodinger's. I like the Pottenger experiment better . (just cuz the visuals of t he S experiment hurt my heart)

 

[haven71]

I know with the Social Security benefits, in my state, it is based on the child's parent's income. Experienced this when my DD died and I received custody of my grandson. They base what he gets off of his Mom's income, and I must account for it every year, and tell them how much I'm spending on his care, how much I saved, the whole nine yards.

That’s how it was in AZ after my first husband died.

It was based off his income (and he’d made bank with his practice) and using the benefits calculator, for 5 kids I should’ve received over $10,000 per month! Point is, there is a CAP per child. I can’t remember how much per child I got at first, but I have one child left at home still and her benefit is a little over $1900 per month, which is the max. Kelsey would’ve made less so K’s benefit would’ve been less. Point is, it’s not going to pay all the bills from one child’s payment. However, it’s separate and unrelated to how much life insurance the deceased had. Which KB may or may not have had, but I said previously I don’t think financial gain was PF’s primary motive at all. IMO.

 

[GordianKnot]

Colorado district court: Murder case is sealed

SCABBMFAA:

Media who identified themselves as an NBC reporter, an ABC producer and a freelance photographer for the U.K.’s Daily Mail converged Jan. 4 at a home in Twin Falls County expecting to find the FBI serving a search warrant, they said. What they found were “no trespassing” signs and a heavy chain across the entrance to the property.

Since then, the district attorney’s office in Colorado asked the Twin Falls County Sheriff’s Office to not grant any more interviews, sheriff’s spokeswoman Lori Stewart said.

__________

Apologies to the group if this article published yesterday has already been posted.

 

[Aydrianna523]

I don’t think so.

I mean IF he was so bad off why MURDER Kelsey for possibly a small metering of money throughout the years for baby K...why not just get KB to pay him child support and not risk going to jail for murder one? I bet KB was mostly paying for K’s materialistic needs anyway, I don’t think he dipped into his shallow pockets much. JMO

That’s why I still think it was primarily done for custody reasons. It’s likely Kelsey had had enough and had previously told him if he didn’t grow up, commit, and take on some of the financial responsibility then she would move back closer to her folks. That would likely be devastating to him as he seemed attached to Baby K. And Baby K was HIS more than hers in his mind.

Perhaps he knew those shoes (growing up, financial planning, and commitment) were too big for his tiny feet to fill so he planned to get rid of KB before she made any moves to get away. I think losing Baby K was his greatest fear.

Possible. But there certainly are plenty of guys who kill their gf's or wives and do not kill the kids. I'm not ready to say that a guy's motivation (for the most part) would be to get custody.
But you may have info that i don't have.

 

[yawningreyhound]

Agree this wasn’t about money. I also bet KB had health insurance for her and baby K through her job since he is self employed and he likely didn’t provide a penney. Somehow this was all about getting KB out of his life for good.

Thing is with these murderers, they are clueless. KB will forever be etched in his mind as he sits in a cell day after day after day.

this is pure opinion, but the way PF carries that baby around, I don't think it was about the baby either. I could be 100% wrong, but I don't think he cares much about anything...two timing; unkind to his animal charges; soliciting for murder. I think grandma frazee probably likes the kid, but I'm really unsure about him. I wish he'd pull a Jake Patterson and just confess

 

[Seattle1]

Time lines aren't completely clear. On the one hand we have PR saying in part two of the interview that she contacted the FBI on December 17th. The whole subtext to this "story" is that somehow it was the R's that tipped off authorities to KK. However, there is this article from today that indicates that the FBI had contacted law enforcement in Twin Falls (county and city) on December 15th. It does not indicate when search warrants were executed. If someone has a source for a date search warrants were executed in Twin Falls county that would be great.

Colorado district court: Murder case is sealed

The Twin Falls County Sheriff’s Office and the Twin Falls Police Department confirmed in a Dec. 22 statement that the agencies were contacted by the FBI on Dec. 15. The two agencies, in a joint special investigation unit, assisted the FBI in obtaining the search warrants, served multiple search warrants and “processed some items of evidence” related to Berreth’s disappearance, the statements said.​

I recall a television interview with Idaho LE, where he explained being contacted by another jurisdiction, and that it was legally necessary for Idaho LE to do certain things for this investigation. In other words, I believe the search warrant process, execution/service in Idaho took place between 12/15 and 12/17. Seemed to me the source originated in Colorado but can't confirm. MOO

 

[Bazinga]

Kelsey Berreth and Patrick Frazee were supposed to be in court for a custody hearing

Sorry, I can't find a transcript for this news clip. It's dated December 22 and it references a temporary custody hearing between Berreth and Frazee scheduled for 'next Thursday', ie, December 27.

No information on who requested the hearing and I can't find any more information about it. PF was arrested the day before this news announcement. The news clip says they found the documents online for Teller County District Court.

Thank you,

I think there might be something in this - That KB and PF did have an upcoming custody hearing to put into place boundaries for their arrangements regarding their child.
It seems obvious to me that they were not in a progressing happy relationship. Not expecting to marry. That KB hadn’t told her mom would not surprising to me as it can take time to feel ready to let your family know about a relationship breakdown, especially a family with conservative values.

 

[The Night Watchman]

I don’t think so.

I mean IF he was so bad off why MURDER Kelsey for possibly a small metering of money throughout the years for baby K...why not just get KB to pay him child support and not risk going to jail for murder one? I bet KB was mostly paying for K’s materialistic needs anyway, I don’t think he dipped into his shallow pockets much. JMO

That’s why I still think it was primarily done for custody reasons. It’s likely Kelsey had had enough and had previously told him if he didn’t grow up, commit, and take on some of the financial responsibility then she would move back closer to her folks. That would likely be devastating to him as he seemed attached to Baby K. And Baby K was HIS more than hers in his mind.

Perhaps he knew those shoes (growing up, financial planning, and commitment) were too big for his tiny feet to fill so he planned to get rid of KB before she made any moves to get away. I think losing Baby K was his greatest fear.

I agree. But I would add that I don't believe that they were still together as a couple, and he may have developed a hatred for KB. Why hatred?

In a hypothetical situation with an unknown cast, a breakup involving a child can turn into a vicious power struggle. In reality, the mother holds more cards than the father. This can be handled different ways, but one way is for the mother to play the cards hard. Control when the father sees the child, emasculate him in different ways- lack of success, housing arrangements, parenting skills etc. And potentially threaten to move away and take his child. Taking a child out of state is more complicated, but this man may not know this.

Some "masculine" men who think they have been in control all their lives, may not handle this gracefully. A man could develop hatred from feeling demeaned and belittled, and feeling they have no recourse in the struggle. And sometimes they just refuse to lose; when they are used to controlling and "winning", no matter how trivial the previous battle victories in his life actually were.

 

[haven71]

Possible. But there certainly are plenty of guys who kill their gf's or wives and do not kill the kids. I'm not ready to say that a guy's motivation (for the most part) would be to get custody.
But you may have info that i don't have.

Nope, I have no extra info. Just basing it off of having a late husband who wanted to have me killed and who was trying to get full custody of the kids, in part because he was very attached to them, in part to spite me. So like I said it’s IMO only. I’m certainly biased.

 

[Artis]

The phone cannot be Schrodinger's cat. The R's stated that KK was in possession of KB's phone and the R's believe KK sent the texts per PF's instructions. KB's phone pinged near KK's home/work area.

I am going to believe that KK sent the texts, from Idaho, and related to the ping.

ETA:
@Dave F. if KK did not send the texts from the phone in Idaho, then who-where-how do you think the texts were sent?

And the fact that the Rs who say KKL had Kelsey's phone and sent fraudulent text messages from it, makes it all the more bizarre how they've also tried to paint KKL as some poor, manipulated, love struck victim.

 

[Marli61]

The thing about ranchers is, they don’t like anyone nosing around their money. There’s a lot of under the table transactions that go on to avoid taxes so the less scrutiny, the better. PF in a custody battle would have to provide documentation of his income.

In CO I believe the general rule is that child support is 20% of the combined gross income of both parents, split in two. So simple example - if each of them grossed $75k, then support would be 20% of $150k which is $30k. PF would pay half that, or $15k. This formula can be tweaked if one parent makes a lot more money than the other.

And with some men, particularly in that cowboy/ranching lifestyle, it’s less about the amount of money and more about the loss of control. They hate to have someone else such as an ex or the government telling them what they have to contribute, and then they don’t get any say in how that money gets used. And many fail to understand why they can’t go buy clothes for their non-custodial kid and deduct it from their child support payment.

Do you have a factual basis for saying that ranchers are less honest than any other tax paying group? I find that comment highly offensive. I'm in no way condoning anything PF has done, but to imply he is less honest because he is a rancher is over the top imo.

 

[Dave F.]

The phone cannot be Schrodinger's cat. The R's stated that KK was in possession of KB's phone and the R's believe KK sent the texts per PF's instructions. KB's phone pinged near KK's home/work area.

I am going to believe that KK sent the texts, from Idaho, and related to the ping.

ETA:
@Dave F. if KK did not send the texts from the phone in Idaho, then who-where-how do you think the texts were sent?

The phone cannot be Schrodinger's cat. The R's stated that KK was in possession of KB's phone and the R's believe KK sent the texts per PF's instructions. KB's phone pinged near KK's home/work area.

I am going to believe that KK sent the texts, from Idaho, and related to the ping.

ETA:
@Dave F. if KK did not send the texts from the phone in Idaho, then who-where-how do you think the texts were sent?

I believe that the FBI has served the warrants and the phones have been in the hands of engineers for plenty long to make the match. In Colorado, the match would likely result in a charge of "Accessory After the Fact" which carries the same penalty and burden of proof as the charge (First Degree Murder). The very nature of the charge implies to me that you have to prove the murder for it to stick, so I don't look for anything to happen until the murder investigation is farther along than it is now. Right now, I think the whole KK story is a dead end in regard to finding KB's remains. If even half of the backfence gossip makes it into trial testimony, though, the trials are going to be very interesting!

 

[Artis]

Agree this wasn’t about money. I also bet KB had health insurance for her and baby K through her job since he is self employed and he likely didn’t provide a penney. Somehow this was all about getting KB out of his life for good.

Thing is with these murderers, they are clueless. KB will forever be etched in his mind as he sits in a cell day after day after day.

IIRC, Robert Hare, who created the Hare Psychopathy Checklist, said that about 90% of penitentiary inmates are ASPD/sociopaths and 10% of those are also psychopaths. They do not have a conscience and will not mourn those they kill. They may think about them only because it's why they're in prison but that's about it.