CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #44 *ARREST*

[Artis]

I respectfully disagree. I think she was very much afraid of getting caught.

But the other folks she confided in who kept their mouths shut - they had zero reason to be afraid.

IMHO

I'm with you there, ajaylee. I was referring to KK's alleged baloney story, as relayed by M, that KK was afraid of PF.

 

[MyBelle]

I think their is some confusion how the state uses polygraph tests on potential witnesses. They give a polygraph, review the answers, go over what wasn’t truthful. Rinse and repeat.....moo

They are concerned about learning the truth!

Polygraphs are unreliable which is why they are inadmissible as evidence. There are also techniques for passing a poly.

In this case, LE said that they corroborated KK's claims by actually taking her to the townhouse, Nash Ranch, etc.

JMO

 

[Nudgee]

2

I agree.

He could have dumped Kelsey’s remains, and potentially other evidence, just about anywhere.

To focus on a particular place, and have that be a place as daunting as a landfill, seems to mean that they have a solid reason for doing so.

That’s a lot of time and expense to be searching a place like that.

Gotta be a reason for it.

@MassGuy ... I know anything is possible. But what do you think the odds are that KK really had more to say than she initially said at the time of her plea deal (forget all her lies prior to that). For example, at the time of her plea deal, she mentioned PF got rid of KB's remains either in a river or a landfill.... but as time went on, she either admitted to actually being there during the discarding of KB's remains and that was at a landfill or that PF told her he discarded KB's remains at a landfill??

As you said.... "Gotta be a reason for it"..... and to me, it's got to be a really good reason and one that LE has confidence in. Would that blow anything with her plea deal (I mean, she's not lying but she may have left information out) or would they give her yet more leniency because they MAY find some part of KB's remains.

This is one sick and twisted bizarre case which seriously has my head spinning. TIA

 

[Hatch]

While I don't agree with many things, I do like to see all sides to see other folks input. That is why I like this website , especially when it is an honest conversation . Especially, it was so very very interesting to see a neighbor's input.

IMO to be open minded in this case you need to explore everything there is available, from the supporters and haters of KK, PF. This interview was enlightening from a person that did not have a opinion either way, she had empathy for KB, and told true facts about conversations with PF insight to KB's and PF's relationship. The person had doubts and disgust like we all do for KKL. I hope we can hear more from KB friends .

 

[Tippy Lynn]

@Tippy Lynn

Your wonderful timeline has a problem in the section below. Unfortunately the tweets during Prelim also don't exactly match the AW. But that's not as important. Here's the problematic section of the timeline in italics:

PF was seen on Walmart & Williams Furniture Store surveillance, and on Arlo camera by KB’s neighbor caught KB, baby K and PF at KB’s door at 1:34 p.m.

*

KB, baby K and PF were actually all seen on neighbor's surveiilance camera "around 1:00PM". Ref:

Sam Kraemer‏ @SamKraemerTV
State gives him another still of that neighbor’s surveillance. He says it shows Berreth, Kaylee, Frazee & her flowers out front of Kelsey’s door around 1 p.m.

*

The AW item#12 states that an individual matching PF's description was later seen entering KB's residence at approximately 1324. ( 1:24PM )
Ref: AW pdf

Tweets during the Prelim state 1:34PM , just a ten minute difference. Ref:

Ashley Franco‏ @AshleyKKTV 1m1 minute ago
Commander says#PatrickFrazee was seen going toward #KelseyBerreth townhome. A neighbors home surveillance has pictures of#PatrickFrazee at Kelsey’s door. That was around 1:34 pm the day she went missing.

*

PF was at the WP Walmart 1254 - 1317 per their surveillance camera. Ref: AW item #11

*

The wording in @Tippy Lynn timeline blurs 2 of PF's 3 appearances at KB door on 11/22 into a single event (the around 1:00PM with KB&baby, and the 1:24/1:34PM event with PF alone).

Thanks for all your hard work, @Tippy Lynn

What should the bullet say?

This is in the affidavit:

 

[gitana1]

Yeah, it's very strange to me too. These are people comfortable with guns, why didn't he take her out in the boonies and shoot her?

I hate even typing those words, but I can't for the life of me figure out this strategy.

Rage?

On a slightly related topic, interesting patterns regarding weapon or method choice. Someone stated earlier that a woman is much more likely to use a bat. That's sort of untrue. They tend to be more "distant" in their methods of killing and "cleaner" according to this study:

Gun use varies greatly depending on gender of perp and victim. If it's male on male, 72% of the homicides will be via gun. If it's male on female, that drops to 48.5 and 46.9 % of homicides involving females against females involve guns. Guns are still the preferred method of choice but not that homicide includes sudden killings that weren't planned.

Weapon and circumstances
Some of the largest gender differences are related to the weapon used to commit murder. Whereas both sexes employ firearms most often because of their accuracy and lethality, men tend to rely on guns more so than women. As shown in Table 3, nearly three-quarters of male offenders and nearly half of their female counterparts kill their victims with a firearm. Women often prefer more distant and cleaner means of committing murder. In fact, women are responsible for nearly 40% of homicides involving poison, drugs, drowning, and asphyxiation. Drowning and asphyxiations by women are especially prevalent in homicides of children. Two-thirds of infanticides (victims less than age 5) are committed by women (primarily mothers or step-mothers), and 80% of homicides of victims less than the age of 1 year implicate a female perpetrator.

Table 3. Incident Characteristics by Victim and Offender Sex, 2000–2015

Victim sex Offender sex
Male (%) Female (%) Male (%) Female (%)
Weapon
 Gun 72.3 48.5 69.5 46.9
 Knife 11.5 16.7 11.4 19.5
 Other 16.2 34.8 19.1 33.6
Total 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0



Who the killer kills also varies by gender with only 11% of female homicide victims being killed by a stranger.

Victim–offender relationship
Despite the sizable overrepresentation of males among homicide victims and especially offenders, the gender gap narrows substantially when the perpetrator and victim have a close relationship. Although the vast majority of homicides committed by men (81%) involve an acquaintance or stranger as victim, more than half of female perpetrators kill intimate partners or family members (Table 3). In terms of victimization, 30% of males but only 11% of females are killed by a stranger. Victim age interacts with gender in the prevalence of murders committed by intimate partners or family members. For child victims, the percentage killed by a family member is virtually identical for boys and girls and declines from 80% down to about 40% into early adolescence. From that age forward, murders committed by intimate partners begin to occur with the proportion of women being killed by someone close to them greatly outnumbering that of men (Fig. 7).

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/vio.2017.0016

 

[Artis]

If the DA said “polygraph or no deal,” then her defense attorney wouldn’t have any recourse.

The fact that it wasn’t mentioned in the preliminary hearing, means absolutely nothing.

Lots of things weren’t mentioned.

Now I have no idea if she took a polygraph, but it absolutely happens.

It has nothing to do with the defense attorney being good or not, in this particular situation.

This is unique.

What is unique?

 

[Tippy Lynn]

While I don't agree with many things, I do like to see all sides to see other folks input. That is why I like this website , especially when it is an honest conversation . Especially, it was so very very interesting to see a neighbor's input.

I like to see all sides as well.

 

[MyBelle]

Thank you! I've been saying all along, with others here, the timeline is just too tight for this. They have proof of her phone pinging along the way, I would imagine, but wow, that is an awful lot of travel for one person in a short period of time. Also, notice she didn't come Thanksgiving night- was she working the next day maybe, which may have delayed her? Something seems off with this, but the phones pinging- I've wondered if someone else drove her phone down while she used a burner phone, because her phone did ping along the way.

Had she started out earlier, I could see it fitting.

I also question leaving blood for what, at least 36 hours or so, before cleaning it? The smell of bleach would be in her condo for a bit- it would take a good amount of bleach to clean all of that up and not leave much trace of it for LE to see.

It is too tight and I agree there is no way KK spent the night in Greeley.

According to Tippy Lynn's timeline:

November 23, 2018 - Friday

• Slater says KK exchanged her car with her friend Megan (unsure on spelling). It’s a Volkswagen Passat with expired plates. The exchange happened in Idaho. KK left around 6:30 p.m. that day.
• KK brought gloves, a hair net, two trash bags, bleach, a white body suit (to keep things off her person) and booties (shoe covers). She brought those supplies from home, Slater says, because she recently moved into a new home and had them from painting her home. She said the hospital had the suit.
• KK stopped in Greeley over night.
• On KK’s way to CO PF told her there was a square that needed to be replaced and to look at an air duct vent that needed attention.
• Commander Adams is now testifying about cell phone records. Told the court on Nov. 23, day after KB went missing. PF called KB’s phone in the morning and both phones pinged as being together at PF’s residence in Teller County.

November 24, 2018 - Saturday

• KK arrived in WP around 7:30 a.m.

 

[Hatch]

stimulants..... My personal opinion is both PF and KK were
both "using" and it would also explain his 'ulcers'.
I've wondered if his use of some drugs contributed to his 'rage'
that murderous day and also his 'angry' personality.
I've been around some suspected users and the changes in their
moods from hour to hour is astounding.
That's why they're called 'mood altering drugs', I guess.

He could of even been taking steroids to bulk up his muscles, my understanding is they can definitely alter your moods.

 

[MemPat]

She's going to face two hurdles: retaining her license (in doubt) and getting hired somewhere.

It's pretty hard to keep your license if you are convicted of a felony. Like everything, you can appeal. No idea what her chances would be.

If she keeps her license, she still has to be hired. No employer who has looked into her background (ie, good employers paying good wages) is going to be comfortable with her statement about getting drugs strong enough to potentially kill KB from work. Now she could appeal that, claim there's no evidence because she never took any drugs, she was just talking trash to PF.

OTOH, she's part of a close-knit community and I suspect that in her neck of the woods, she enjoys the same kind of hometown advantage that PF does in WP/Florissant. I think her community will rally round to forgive her. Her ex-husband seems to want to protect the kids; he's not interested in dragging her name in the mud with prurient details about her affairs. They'll see PF as the murderous Colorado guy who destroyed two good women, one from Washington and one from Idaho.

I think KK will fight the publicity on this for the rest of her life.

The trial (if no PF plea) will happen in a couple of years while, in the meantime, every evidentiary hearing will make headlines.

After the trial there will surely be a book (oh, I miss Ann Rule!) and then every murder/forensics show will have a crack at the case.

KK will be a sure enough faded rodeo queen by the time this plays out.

I hope her mama has an extra room.

 

[ab01]

Polygraphs are unreliable which is why they are inadmissible as evidence. There are also techniques for passing a poly.

In this case, LE said that they corroborated KK's claims by actually taking her to the townhouse, Nash Ranch, etc.

JMO

I’m not sure I understand why they wouldn’t have wanted to do both. There were some things that couldn’t be verified by merely pointing to them.Regardless I have faith that investigators were intent on finding everything they could to get to the facts of this case.moo

 

[NWLady]

KK said she parked at a community center when she went there to do her clean up. Does anyone know if the community center is on the driveway side of KB's condo or the opposite side? Thanks in advance.

 

[MassGuy]

What is unique?

A super lenient plea deal that doesn’t equate to the level of her involvement.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

A super lenient plea deal that doesn’t equate to the level of her involvement.

I agree 100%.

 

[MassGuy]

He could of even been taking steroids to bulk up his muscles, my understanding is they can definitely alter your moods.

I don’t think he needed anything to alter his moods.

It appears that he is already quite temperamental enough.

 

[MemPat]

Her attorney might, if the deal was contingent upon her taking and passing one.

She gave them a story; they had to verify it.

Plenty of plea deals require a defendant to pass a polygraph after they provide an account to law enforcement.

When a plea deal isn’t in the offing, no defense attorney would allow his client to take a polygraph.

This was different.

And I would expect the lawyers to agree in advance on the questions asked by the technician..

It wasn't in KK or LE's best interest to leave that wide open though nothing from a lie detector is allowed at trial, right?

 

[Artis]

So the Hansen property of KKL's family is about 2.3 mile from Hansen Bridge across the Snake River. It's only about 350 feet high.

That would certainly be a well-known place for KKL to be disposing of anything else that PF or she didn't want found

Hansen 1966 Bridge - HighestBridges.com

I could not drive across that bridge!

I really feel like KK took the after fire remains. Why else hang around for the fire? So many places to toss some charred bones where they'd never be found. Why would PF risk something like the dump or landfill? KK told LE she refused to take the body so they had a fire, instead, and then she took the bones. MOO

 

[Seattle1]

It is too tight and I agree there is no way KK spent the night in Greeley.

According to Tippy Lynn's timeline:

November 23, 2018 - Friday

• Slater says KK exchanged her car with her friend Megan (unsure on spelling). It’s a Volkswagen Passat with expired plates. The exchange happened in Idaho. KK left around 6:30 p.m. that day.
• KK brought gloves, a hair net, two trash bags, bleach, a white body suit (to keep things off her person) and booties (shoe covers). She brought those supplies from home, Slater says, because she recently moved into a new home and had them from painting her home. She said the hospital had the suit.
• KK stopped in Greeley over night. ***ERROR
• On KK’s way to CO PF told her there was a square that needed to be replaced and to look at an air duct vent that needed attention.
• Commander Adams is now testifying about cell phone records. Told the court on Nov. 23, day after KB went missing. PF called KB’s phone in the morning and both phones pinged as being together at PF’s residence in Teller County.

November 24, 2018 - Saturday

• KK arrived in WP around 7:30 a.m.

@Tippy Lynn

*** Take note this date was reported in error, and later corrected to September.

KK did NOT stop over in Greeley, Co during November trip to WP.

 

[Dave F.]

I wonder why she did not simply throw KB's phone in the gorge with the keys? It stopped pinging there so she must have shut it off or destroyed it at the gorge before returning to her house to burn it in the front yard. Why bother taking the evidence back to her house?

It does seem pretty lame, but have you seen Malad Gorge? That search could make the Fountain dump look easy. IMO