CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #46*ARREST*

[PommyMommy]

OK, since we have already had to discuss the gruesome details of KB's death, let us address another bad aspect of this: where exactly did PF and KK get together? KK's house belonged to her ex. PF lives with his mom. In a truck? In a field? At the Nash barn? (trying to find the intoxicating romance here)

I have wondered that myself. I don't know. How about I throw in the barn as another possibility? Lol

Maybe on a nice bale of hay in the Nash barn?

Jinx!
MOO

 

[BingoBongo]

You got that right. Toxic shame. Imagine going through life with ONLY such feelings as shame, anger, resentment. Now add a real PD in there with no empathy or conscience.

I'd still like know to the deal with PFs father. Cruel, Casper Milquetoast, absent??? Just as significant as the mother.

I'd like to know all the fam dynamics, but haven't found much, and WS frowns on sleuthing them here.

 

[acutename]

That is an interesting point and I think it might be plausible.

I believe KK's friend, MS, when she said KK said she'd never seen such evil and she was afraid.

I think at some point, KK did start suspecting PF was trying to get her to take ALL of the risks. I think it's possible that by the time she cleaned up the condo, she was starting to be a bit afraid of PF, because she had witnessed what he was capable of. She told a friend that she was done with him, and I think she meant that, at least at the time she said it. I think she may indeed have left 'bread crumbs', hoping the authorities would take care of PF.

If LE showed no sign of finding her 'breadcrumbs' and she worried about PF in the future, she could always tip them off to her 'bread crumbs'. I don't think she ever for a second dreamed how much trouble she could be in. I think she assumed that if she didn't actually strike a blow and wasn't actually on the scene, she'd be off the hook if she agreed to testify against him.

all along, I have seen KK as sort of like a sorority or fraternity pledge doing something stupid, but thinking it was a game and not appreciating the consequences. I know she is over 30, a professional, with children, so she should be much more mature, but the coffee stunt seemed to me as if she was playing a game. The actual murder clean up and body burning seems out of character to me, but some how she AND PF "forgot" that KB was a human being. there was zero empathy. so maybe she is also a psychopath as some have said.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I don't know. It was the Dec 6 inspection (IIRC) where blood was seen in areas where it shouldn't have been and I'm sure Kelsey's family would have consented to an immediate forensic going over as took place on the 20th.

I hope someone can answer this because it mystifies me (if I have these dates right). That's a full two weeks delay.

Question again then please?

Perhaps rephrase your question that was the original one of...

..........

"Help me out, here:

11/25 Well check. Cops knock on door, no answer and they leave.

12/2 Forced entry well check, everything looks okay.

12/6 Kelsey's family finds blood, calls cops and what happened? They just took swabs to confirm it was hers? Why did it take until 12/20 for the serious search?"

...........

Perhaps others can give you other answers than my response as to why did they not search his house before the 21st. My thoughts were...

"Probable cause needed?

Obtained with the interview with KKL?

Surreptitious surveillance from the 14th through the 21st?" (ETA to build case and investigate to get the probable cause)

 

[MsBetsy]

Mental illness can be medically treated. Full blown personality disorders cannot.

A Personality Disorder can certainly be treated, it's just one of the Mental Health Disorders that is more difficult to treat. It's not the disorder, but the symptoms that can be treated with meds.
I have a background in Psychology, and in my experience the patients with Personality Disorders were the hardest to work with, but some of the most interesting people I've ever known! There were definitely some highs and lows.
Although no Psychologist can diagnose PF or KK based on what we know, many have recognized characteristics such as Narcissism or those in ASPD in one or maybe both.
I wish we knew more, and although it's certainly not an excuse it's interesting to know what makes a person do such horrible things.
I'm very curious to know how such a person as KK, who was president of her high school class, in the National Honors Society, and who chose a career dedicated to helping others in need, could do such a thing.
It takes compassion to be a nurse. What was it about her that made her so dedicated and loyal to PF that she would consider killing someone for him? That she went out of her way to clean up his mess? What kind of control did PF have over her? Why couldn't she just say no?! Imo

 

[Bluebythec]

If I were CB I would not have touched anything!
They tested the garbage and it was KB's blood.
So, it was obviously something that they would need to know about.
IMO

I meant the first time she went there. Probably not the right thing to do but I think I would have emptied it in some misguided attempt to spare KB any embarrassment.

 

[acutename]

Thank you dixiegirl1035 what does everyone think...possible to get a tote out that window? OR was the tote on the side and just a body in a bag pushed out the window and then put in the tote?

anybody have an architect gene and know where that window is on the inside (without me looking at all the Zillow pics again)? Is there a reason it is more convenient than the door?

 

[dixiegirl1035]

It’s unclear as to the specifics of their earlier searches.

The affidavit does say that a CSI team found traces of blood in the bathroom, and used Blue Star.

It does not say if they used it in the rest of the house.

When they returned to the house on the 20th, after talking to KK, that’s when the case turned.

If they didn’t search the rest of the house for blood before that, which I don’t think they did, that’s bizarre and bothersome.

Note to self. If somebody in my family is missing and I think it's under circumstances that are suspicious and there may be blood, ensure that crime detectives, and do luminol and BlueStar at night.

Same thing happened when Christopher Watts house was investigated. They appeared at both houses when they were taking out evidence At night.

The bathroom can be closed off in the door can be close to get total darkness, but the entire house cannot unless it is a Dark night perhaps

 

[WildcatRunner]

Horrible murder. KB's friend said PF was always mad about something. I wonder if Ma Frazee complained about money woes to him every day. She had no husband to complain to and she probably nagged him, but still KB was no burden to him financially. She paid her own way so why did they have that incident where he complained about money and she said maybe I should just shoot myself, pointing a gun to her head. Could this have triggered something in his dumb head to think about killing her. He sounds like he was a royal pain to KB.

I'm behind, so someone may have said this, or something related already - I apologize in advance, if so.
I have assumed that the finances and gun to the head probably go hand in hand with CB mentioning the wedding wasn't happening because of PF's financial struggles. He didn't have to support KB, but there was probably an "emotional conversation" (thanks CW for the descriptor ha) about how she had his child, and wanted to be a "real family" and she was upset they were living in the situation they were in (especially given her Christian background), as it probably wasn't how she envisioned her life would go (unwed mother). He says they can't get married because of his finances, and she says she should just kill herself because she is upset she is in this situation.
I lean toward this explanation, also because CB hasn't openly expressed to know a great deal about the relationship, but it seems she knows about PF's finances derailing the wedding, and KB putting the gun to her own head. So in MOO, it makes sense that these two scenarios could go together.

 

[acutename]

Great point. What a difference that would have made. I wonder why? Personally, she wanted her gone as badly as he did so could not do it beforehand. She needed to be sure she was gone. And now it is a cover your arse and save yourself situation....

If one even believes her bread crumb b.s. Right?

jmo.

she did tell MG and MS but they did not intervene.... asking a lot really

 

[MemPat]

I have wondered that myself. I don't know. How about I throw in the barn as another possibility? Lol

Jinx!
MOO

Hence, the cadaver dog hit.

 

[MassGuy]

Note to self. If somebody in my family is missing and I think it's under circumstances that are suspicious and there may be blood, ensure that crime detectives, and do luminol and BlueStar at night. Same thing happened when Christopher wants house was investigated. They appeared at both houses when they were taking out evidence At night.

The bathroom can be closed off in the door can be close to get total darkness, but the entire house cannot unless it is a Dark night perhaps

The problem was that they waited so damn long to search the house with Blue Star.

If you find blood in the bathroom, wouldn’t you naturally search the rest of the house with it?

They shouldn’t have waited 2 plus weeks to do that.

Strange.

 

[kakadu]

OK, since we have already had to discuss the gruesome details of KB's death, let us address another bad aspect of this: where exactly did PF and KK get together? KK's house belonged to her ex. PF lives with his mom. In a truck? In a field? At the Nash barn? (trying to find the intoxicating romance here)

I guess his mother knew what was going on and didn't mind that they met in her house.

 

[BingoBongo]

A Personality Disorder can certainly be treated, it's just one of the Mental Health Disorders that is more difficult to treat. It's not the disorder, but the symptoms that can be treated with meds.
I have a background in Psychology, and in my experience the patients with Personality Disorders were the hardest to work with, but some of the most interesting people I've ever known! There were definitely some highs and lows.
Although no Psychologist can diagnose PF or KK based on what we know, many have recognized characteristics such as Narcissism or those in ASPD in one or maybe both.
I wish we knew more, and although it's certainly not an excuse it's interesting to know what makes a person do such horrible things.
I'm very curious to know how such a person as KK, who was president of her high school class, in the National Honors Society, and who chose a career dedicated to helping others in need, could do such a thing.
It takes compassion to be a nurse. What was it about her that made her so dedicated and loyal to PF that she would consider killing someone for him? That she went out of her way to clean up his mess? What kind of control did PF have over her? Why couldn't she just say no?! Imo

Those with NPD rarely think they have a need for treatment. It's not them, it's you. I can totally see PF taking that attitude.

Good article from the Mayo Clinic here:

Personality disorders - Diagnosis and treatment - Mayo Clinic

 

[v0x]

Moo

I don’t think PF originally planned to murder kB on that particular day and in that particular manner.

I think much in the way he kicked his dog at the rodeo, that he just lost it and all previous plans went out the window.

I think that would explain the reason that kk couldn’t come right away, I don’t think she was expecting it on that particular day.

Why he decided to go ahead and use the suicide story that he had previously thought out is beyond me.

My personal theory is that he didn’t have a better plan in his mind that he could spin.

He’s just not very smart. And on top of that; “ones anger tends to overpower ones intelligence”. - Chris Watts...probably

So... he just happened to have a baseball bat with him that day?

 

[dixiegirl1035]

If I were CB I would not have touched anything!
They tested the garbage and it was KB's blood.
So, it was obviously something that they would need to know about.
IMO

Most people like us do not think like that. And even if I was in that situation, I don't know if I would think straight either. But remember, they took the blood on a certain date, while they were living there, but I don't know if they told the family immediately. But we do know that the family of her mother and her brother left her house soon after. I did not know what they were told at this time. But they did leave.

 

[Artis]

Here are (IMO) two good articles about the differences. One of them definitely reminds me of CW and PF.

How to Tell a Sociopath from a Psychopath

Narcissist or Sociopath? Similarities, Differences and Signs

Excellent articles. Often PT is so-so because of PC agendas but those are really good. Bookmarked and thank you!

Because of the fact that every individual is so unique, one can spend a lifetime knowing these characters and never being able to really pigeon hole them. It's happened in my own life.

We need a trait checklist for all of this stuff. A red flag list. No matter which category the traits fall into, once the subject exhibits a certain number, RUN AWAY.

 

[MsBetsy]

JMO
I appreciate the insights as the first real phsychopath I saw for sure was during the Jodi Arias trial where I watched her very closely during the live trial. It was amazing and shocking to me to watch her.

The way she would look around and see others in the courtroom acting in shock to some of the crime scene photos and then she would mock their reactions was incredible to me. It was like she had no real emotions of her own and had to mimic other people in the courtroom in order to behave properly.

Learning how they cannot feel empathy for others helps to explain how some of the real phsychopaths can do such horrible crimes we read about here.

I am convinced PF must be one of them in order to be so selfish and want to harm KB in such a horrendous way without caring how her Mom and others would feel afterwards. KK, on the other hand, has a whole host of her own issues in order to be able to follow PF's lead. In some ways I think KK may be worse off mentally than PF.

Anyway, thanks for the insight.
btw-I almost majored in Phsychology but it scared me so much in my Physch 101 class as I started to learn how people tick and and some things about myself that I was too scared to continue down that career path. LOL

Yes, she is the perfect example. In fact there are a lot of similarities between Borderline Personality Disorder and ASPD. They tend to have narcissistic traits, as well as psychopathic. Imo

 

[WildcatRunner]

I was reading up on landfills and I was very surprised at how organized they were, and how engineered they were. They actually are made so that stuff did not decompose.

I remember somebody had said that earlier up thread, but I did not really let that sink in as previously, I have thought the purpose was to decompose. But it is not to decompose quickly. Just the opposite.

They do a layer of trash, they do a layer of dirt, they do a layer of trash, they do a layer of dirt Etc.

What things we learn here on WS.

Thanks Pommy for my continuing WS learning credits.

ETA, and thank you to the original poster who said that things did not decompose fast in a landfill. I can't remember who you were.

In the Lucas Hernandez case, we had a member (maybe @ESO ) had a ton of knowledge about the in's and out's of landfills (Maybe @PommyMommy can remember if it was ESO for sure).

 

[Artis]

Moo

I don’t think PF originally planned to murder kB on that particular day and in that particular manner.

I think much in the way he kicked his dog at the rodeo, that he just lost it and all previous plans went out the window.

I think that would explain the reason that kk couldn’t come right away, I don’t think she was expecting it on that particular day.

Why he decided to go ahead and use the suicide story that he had previously thought out is beyond me.

My personal theory is that he didn’t have a better plan in his mind that he could spin.

He’s just not very smart. And on top of that; “ones anger tends to overpower ones intelligence”. - Chris Watts...probably

I think you're right. The two of them discussed and plotted and he'd had this staged suicide idea rolling around in his brain but then lost it in a fit of rage. Because he'd probably thought about the suicide idea quite bit, he got that mixed up with what he actually ended up doing.