CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #48 *ARREST*

[ilovechili]

Normally, ilc, I would agree with you.
There are 2 things we have to keep in mind at all times throughout this case.

This is PF we're talking about. He's incredibly, mind-blowingly stupid.
This is KK we're talking about. Turns out, she's also incredibly, mind-blowingly stupid.

Normal rules of logic and reasonable behavior do not apply to this crime.
PF and KK haven proven that neither of them have any executive functioning skills whatsoever.

This is the most poorly planned and executed crime I've ever heard of or read about.
PF is dumber than a box of rocks. His side piece is no better.

JMO.

True, however, then for some to assume an intelligence, level of sanity and logic to her that she would not lie upon making a deal is stretching it too imo.

I am in total agreement as far as that they are both guilty of much and disgusting.

 

[ilovechili]

True, however, then for some to assume an intelligence, level of sanity and logic to her that she would not lie upon making a deal is stretching it too imo.

I am in total agreement as far as that they are both guilty of much and disgusting.

ETA: This is a woman who drove 12 hours to then bring coffee, took a metal pipe and a bat on other occasions. Yah, she thinks rationally. And those are just the things we know about...

This case doesn’t need perfect evidence.

There is absolutely no explanation for his lies.

Him returning to Kelsey’s house, is absolutely devastating.

From that point on, his lies and deception grow, and are documented by his own texts, his own phone calls, and his own phone location.

With Kelsey’s phone right beside him.

His stupidity is staggering, and when you give a guy that amount of time, you give him an equal amount of rope.

He hung himself. He just doesn’t know it yet.

Again, I have no disagreement of his guilt. It is the level of her involvement I wonder about. No one has to convince me with regard to him.

 

[ab01]

Yes and some members of LE will tell you that not every case has this magical perfect evidence for every fact, it simply does not always exist. Some will also tell you that this belief that there will be these magical CSI moments and perfect evidence for each and every fact puts great pressure on them. jmo.

All that being said, I hope you are right.

I agree there is probably not perfect evidence for every fact.

I do believe that LE can prove as fact that KK was not in Colorado on the 22nd.

 

[MassGuy]

ETA: This is a woman who drove 12 hours to then bring coffee, took a metal pipe and a bat on other occasions. Yah, she thinks rationally. And those are just the things we know about...


Again, I have no disagreement of his guilt. It is the level of her involvement I wonder about. No one has to convince me with regard to him.

We know she is involved more than she is being charged for, I think all of us agree on that point.

If the argument is that she is there at the time, there are several problems with that.

Witnesses put her in Idaho.

Law enforcement would have checked phone records, and other means of corroboration.

She is not seen on camera on the 22nd. PF is though, when he returns to the house.

He’s actually seen twice.

When he leaves, he calls KK. If she has somehow snuck from Idaho to Colorado, avoided cameras, and somehow hidden her cell phone location, then the question:

Why does he call her?

I think her location will be solid come trial.

 

[SandyQLS]

ilc, I am not the original poster, obviously, but I didn't read their post to insinuate that you were saying that PF didn't kill Kelsey at all. I think the two of you are in agreement on the question of who killed KB!

I think the post you quoted just focused on reinforcing that PF is KB's killer, regardless of how horrible and reprehensible a human being KK herself is.

KK is a self-serving liar, and a reprobate, and a vile human being.

Having said all that, we have to remember:

PF swung the bat.

JMO.

People believe PF swung the bat because KK said so. People believe there is no longer a bat because KK said it was burned up in a fire.

What bat?

 

[ilovechili]

The how? A bat, it comes from KK via PF allegedly. Not exactly solid proof. But there was blood. Okay but this was missed until KB's family saw it? Did you find a bat or a receipt for one?
The why? Allegedly PF wanted the baby and KB was going to try to take her. Yet just the night before they were together and she was bringing him medicine and then offered to make him a sweet potato pie/casserole. Mm-hmm. Okay.
The when? Well we know it had to be after she talked to her mom. Other than that, no body, etc. No timeline. Yah a tote but the key witness never saw the body in it. Oh, someone says a cadaver dog hit on the hay bale though. Yah, they also hit on KB's car.
The star witness? She had reason of her own and by her own admission ran around with metal rods, bats and coffee and drove ridiculous miles for such attempts. Because she was so afraid of him that she came closer to him at his beck and call. Yet in the same breath she says "he is the love of my life"...

I want him convicted and to rot. I want her to as well, make no mistake about it.

However, just pointing out some of what is very likely to come up. And there is so much more...
This is not anti-LE, it is logic. It is very likely some jurors will do the same. Unless there is much more in the way of some solid evidence.

Let's add where is the body? Well, we first heard it was in a tote. We have no video of that though or of him with any blood on him. Then we heard the tote was burned. But our key witness never saw the body in the tote. Then for some reason we had reason to think it was in a landfill. Then she also said he said he would dump the fire remains in a body of water or the dump.

I mean come on... We find this story so out there and could never imagine such things. And a juror, especially one not knowing of the case if they can find one, would not as well?

I am a full board, convict this monster and get her too but there is much a defense attorney could do here. The way it looks so far anyhow...

Edited to fix typos

 

[GordianKnot]

JMO the typical strategy with a problematic witness is to put all the bad stuff out there at the beginning, and hope that the jury will forget about it as the story unfolds. First her saccharine deal, then her poison coffee trip 9/23, then the metal rod trip 10/15, then the aluminum baseball bat trip 10/23. Each trip a 1600 mile round trip drive with KK's intention to murder KB. KK claims "PF made me do it!" When KB disappears 11/22 and is presumed dead, KK claims "PF did it!". Then she does the 1600 miles to clean up someone else's murder, per her story.

The Prosecution will hold her hand, treat her like a victim, give her a box of tissues. The then Defense will examine her and end by honing in again on her bad acts to reimprint them on the jury.

I cannot see a jury ever recuperating.

The Prosecution case is not that good. It is full of holes and blunders IMO.

They are searching the landfill because they need evidence IMO.

So, I agree with you that once they know her actions relative to the prior solicitations, the cleanup, etc., the jury is going to actively dislike KK, which is to say, they're going to hate her guts. She will not be viewed as a sympathetic witness in any respect.

Having said that, being an unsympathetic witness does not mean she will not be a credible witness in the jurors' eyes.

I do not think the Prosecution will hold her hand and treat her like a victim.
I think the DA will force KK to detail in cold, meticulous, precise fashion exactly what she said and did, and exactly what PF said and did, as relates to KB's murder.

There will be no hankies being proffered. KK will have to wipe her nose on her sleeve if she manages to muster up any crocodile tears.

The DA isn't interested in drumming up sympathy for KK.
He wants justice for KB.
Period.

I think the DA will be every bit as hard on KK on the witness stand as the defense will be on her.
KK's sweetie beauty of a deal is contingent upon her giving a truthful account of both hers and PF actions.
She knows that her deal is contingent on her getting on that stand and telling the truth.

Dan May is going to make sure that the jury sees what a horrible human being KK is, because that is part of showing the jury how awful the entire plot against KB was, and how truly helpless she was in the face of so much evil surrounding her.

After forcing KK to provide a full recitation of her despicable actions, the DA will then go on to show how, reprehensible a character as KK is, she pales in comparison to the evil machinations of PF. It is PF who planned, solicited, and viciously executed KB's murder.
After which, he desecrated her remains and tossed her in a landfill.

PF is toast. The jury is going to serve him up extra crispy.

JMO.

 

[MassGuy]

So, I agree with you that once they know her actions relative to the prior solicitations, the cleanup, etc., the jury is going to actively dislike KK, which is to say, they're going to hate her guts. She will not be viewed as a sympathetic witness in any respect.

Having said that, being an unsympathetic witness does not mean she will not be a credible witness in the juries' eyes.

I do not think the Prosecution will hold her hand and treat her like a victim.
I think the DA will force KK to detail in cold, meticulous, precise fashion exactly what she said and did, and exactly what PF said and did, as relates to KB's murder.

There will be no hankies being proffered. KK have to wipe her nose on her sleeve if she manages to muster up any crocodile tears.

The DA isn't interested in drumming up sympathy for KK.
He wants justice for KB.
Period.

I think the DA will be every bit as hard on KK on the witness stand as the defense will be on her.
KK's sweetie beauty of a deal is contingent upon her giving a truthful account of both hers and PF actions.
She knows that her deal is contingent on her getting on that stand and telling the truth.

Dan May is going to make sure that the jury sees what a horrible human being KK is, because that is part of showing the jury how awful the entire plot against KB was, and how truly helpless she was in the face of so much evil surrounding her.

After forcing KK to provide a full recitation of her despicable actions, the DA will then go on to show how, reprehensible a character as KK is, she pales in comparison to the evil machinations of PF. It is PF who planned, solicited, and viciously executed KB's murder.
After which, he desecrated her remains and tossed her in a landfill.

PF is toast. The jury is going to serve him up extra crispy.

JMO.

Exactly. As long as the jury is able to follow the evidence, and isn’t blinded by their hate for KK, then the prosecution will do just fine.

The dots are easy to connect, if you want to see them.

Let’s just hope they are logical people, and not emotional ones. Atleast when it comes to their decision making.

 

[ilovechili]

People believe PF swung the bat because KK said so. People believe there is no longer a bat because KK said it was burned up in a fire.

What bat?

While I disagree somewhat with a few of your posts, I agree with this. KK is their evidence/star witness. Hopefully they have far more than that. She has to testify and the defense is going to tear her apart.

 

[GordianKnot]

Exactly. As long as the jury is able to follow the evidence, and isn’t blinded by their hate for KK, then the prosecution will do just fine.

The dots are easy to connect, if you want to see them.

Let’s just hope they are logical people, and not emotional ones. Atleast when it comes to their decision making.

Precisely. All that's needed is 12 rational human beings on the jury.

Weed out the nitwits, fruit loops and/or "feelings-over-facts" types in the jury selection process, and this case is a total slam dunk.

 

[ilovechili]

Exactly. As long as the jury is able to follow the evidence, and isn’t blinded by their hate for KK, then the prosecution will do just fine.

The dots are easy to connect, if you want to see them.

Let’s just hope they are logical people, and not emotional ones. Atleast when it comes to their decision making.

The dots provided by KK you mean? What dots did anyone else find prior to her?

It has nothing to do with emotion, it is logic.

It is not anti-LE, you have the equivalent of the star witness being a jailhouse snitch and maybe worse.

It is easier to come up for a motive for her than it is for PF. By far. And her actions show it. I believe actually that he killed her but I also see absolutely no evidence of that except for the words of KK. I see lies on his part, etc. but no evidence.

If a juror is emotional they will convict him because KB did not deserve this. If you want logical then they will question these things.

jmo, we do not always have to agree.

 

[GordianKnot]

People believe PF swung the bat because KK said so. People believe there is no longer a bat because KK said it was burned up in a fire.

What bat?

I'm thinking the bat that splattered KB's blood all over her walls, floor, ceiling, television, fireplace, etc.

That bat.

There are cases where the murder weapon is never recovered.

This is obviously going to be one of them.

JMO.

 

[ilovechili]

Precisely. All that's needed is 12 rational human beings on the jury.

Weed out the nitwits, fruit loops and/or "feelings-over-facts" types in the jury selection process, and this case is a total slam dunk.

Just for the record, the defense gets to weed out and choose as well. It only takes one for a hung jury. You actually want emotional more than rational people because logic will question it all. Emotion will convict him as KB did not deserve this.

just my opinion. it is what i see with what we know so far.

 

[ilovechili]

I'm thinking the bat that splattered KB's blood all over her walls, floor, ceiling, television, fireplace, etc.

That bat.

There are cases where the murder weapon is never recovered.

This is obviously going to be one of them.

JMO.

Yes it is. Just another thing they do not likely have. Just the word of one or two liars. Again, that is not a knock on LE, if the proof is not there, it is not there.

 

[GordianKnot]

Just for the record, the defense gets to weed out and choose as well. It only takes one for a hung jury. You actually want emotional more than rational people because logic will question it all. Emotion will convict him as KB did not deserve this.

just my opinion. it is what i see with what we know so far.

Oh, yes, definitely agree, the defense will get to use their peremptory challenges, too...they'll be able to get rid of potential jurors they see as likely to convict, but they won't be able to stop the prosecution from weeding out the wackadoodle conspiracy theorist, "my mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts" types.

I strongly disagree that the DA is going to want a lot of emotionally-based decision makers on that jury. The facts of this case are really damning against PF. He is going to want jurors that will stay focused on each and every one of those damning pieces of evidence that squarely and solely identify PF as KB's murderer.

JMO.

 

[MassGuy]

Yes it is. Just another thing they do not likely have. Just the word of one or two liars. Again, that is not a knock on LE, if the proof is not there, it is not there.

I absolutely think the proof is there. After seeing some of those search warrants, I am more convinced than ever.

This case is solid.

I ain’t worried. And I’m usually worried.

 

[GordianKnot]

Yes it is. Just another thing they do not likely have. Just the word of one or two liars. Again, that is not a knock on LE, if the proof is not there, it is not there.

They don't need to prove the bat was there.
They just need to prove KB was murdered, and that PF is the one who murdered her.
Her blood is all over that townhome.
It was a violent death.
PF told KK to get over there as she "had a mess to clean up."
His mess. His bloody mess.

I don't think jurors are going to get too hung up on whether it was a Louisville slugger or some other blunt instrument that did the damage.

The prosecution doesn't need to produce the murder weapon.

They have a mountain of circumstantial evidence courtesy of PF's utter PFery.
And KK's big mouth testimony, which the evidence will corroborate.
It won't just be her word...it will be her word as backed up by the circumstantial evidence.

JMO.

 

[indicolite22]

The how? A bat, it comes from KK via PF allegedly. Not exactly solid proof. But there was blood. Okay but this was missed until KB's family saw it? Did you find a bat or a receipt for one?
The why? Allegedly PF wanted the baby and KB was going to try to take her. Yet just the night before they were together and she was bringing him medicine and then offered to make him a sweet potato pie/casserole. Mm-hmm. Okay.
The when? Well we know it had to be after she talked to her mom. Other than that, no body, etc. No timeline. Yah a tote but the key witness never saw the body in it. Oh, someone says a cadaver dog hit on the hay bale though. Yah, they also hit on KB's car.
The star witness? She had reason of her own and by her own admission ran around with metal rods, bats and coffee and drove ridiculous miles for such attempts. Because she was so afraid of him that she came closer to him at his beck and call. Yet in the same breath she says "he is the love of my life"...

I want him convicted and to rot. I want her to as well, make no mistake about it.

However, just pointing out some of what is very likely to come up. And there is so much more...
This is not anti-LE, it is logic. It is very likely some jurors will do the same. Unless there is much more in the way of some solid evidence.

Let's add where is the body? Well, we first heard it was in a tote. We have no video of that though or of him with any blood on him. Then we heard the tote was burned. But our key witness never saw the body in the tote. Then for some reason we had reason to think it was in a landfill. Then she also said he said he would dump the fire remains in a body of water or the dump.

I mean come on... We find this story so out there and could never imagine such things. And a juror, especially one not knowing of the case if they can find one, would not as well?

I am a full board, convict this monster and get her too but there is much a defense attorney could do here. The way it looks so far anyhow...

Edited to fix typos

I suspect the police has solid evidence that KK did not arrive to Colorado until 24th. Trying to pin the murder on her, how could PF explain taking hold of Kelsey's phone on the 22nd and the subsequent trail of fake calls/texts between his and Kelsey's phone, all before KK got there?

 

[mustloveco]

WPU's kind of loud but his drone videos have been really important. He is committed to helping find justice for Kelsey and I believe the other missing/murdered women from Woodland Park, too.
I am grateful for his efforts to crack the case as well as our locals like
@mustloveco as well as other CO posters and posters who have told us about ranch life.
imo

Love him or hate him, Michael Dalton was passionate about Woodland Park long before the KB Tragedy. Yes, he loves attention. He loves an audience. But he has a good heart.

 

[MassGuy]

I suspect the police has solid evidence that KK did not arrive to Colorado until 24th. Trying to pin the murder on her, how could PF explain taking hold of Kelsey's phone on the 22nd and the subsequent trail of fake calls/texts between his and Kelsey's phone, all before KK got there?

Exactly. I’m trying to think of a viable defense, but it certainly ain’t gonna be easy.

They can’t really shift the timeline, because PF said the last time he saw her was when he and KB exchanged the baby.

So him having her phone right beside his, simply does not work.

We’re not talking mere hours here, but more than two days.

Thank God he was forced to think, because when he does, he makes huge mistakes.

The kind of mistakes that send people to prison for life.