CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #50 *ARREST*

[Auntie Cipation]

The nurse said the tote had metal handles. Those were probably not destroyed by the fire and may be of primary interest in the dump search.

IIRC she said silver handles, as in the color. I expect they are/were most likely silver-colored plastic.

PF got a message KB’s phone had “expired”? Would that be like a not accepting calls message verses her voicemail?

ETA: I’ve never called someone’s phone and gotten a message it’s expired. Weird words if PF said that, IMO

in some other post, people remarked that "expired" was an unusual choice of words. since KB's phone was on PF/SF's plan, service would only end if they canceled or failed to pay for it. Is there a Verizon message sent if a phone is destroyed? I would think that the "network" does not "know" if a phone is turned off/ destroyed/ out of range/ in a bunker/ not charged, , etc. and there would not be a specific message. I thought KB's family said that when they tried to call her, it went to voice mail.

According to search warrants and MaF, PF was paying for KB’s cell phone. I took expired to mean that the service on the phone had permanently ended. PF did not want to pay for the phone of his murdered victim and probably could not comprehend what cancelling her phone would indicate. He only thought about himself (his money). Would like to know if PF cancelled the service.

His comment about standing always behind her is quite the play on words too.

I think PF referred to it awkwardly but if you look at the list of texts between them it's clear. In between when KB's phone sent him the "Do you even love me" text and when he replied with the "I bent over backwards for u" text, KB's phone was either destroyed, or her service cancelled, or something. So PF's last text to KB's phone became undeliverable, and his phone sent a message back to him saying "this text message has expired" meaning it wasn't delivered and can't be delivered, no point in continuing to try. It was his message that expired, not her phone, but he freudian slipped when he described it to LE. IMO all.

 

[Trocroc9]

Maybe KK owed PF a favor for something. That’s why she was so willing to drive 800 miles to clean up the mess. It could not just be because she was desperate for his love. There has to be more in their past together.

 

[ilovechili]

According to search warrants and MaF, PF was paying for KB’s cell phone. I took expired to mean that the service on the phone had permanently ended. PF did not want to pay for the phone of his murdered victim and probably could not comprehend what cancelling her phone would indicate. He only thought about himself (his money). Would like to know if PF cancelled the service.

His comment about standing always behind her is quite the play on words too.

Isn't it? It gives a totally different connotation. Some may not see it but when Trocroc said that it was a light bulb moment to me that fits with many of my thoughts. And the reassurance of loving her...

Service ending is another great point. Breaking it or burning it or throwing it in a gorge, etc. would not probably result in that message right? So he knew with the last message from KK that he could shut KB's account off, it was prearranged... And I would not doubt he was tracking the phone online or she called him from one of her many phones... I wait the day they both rot.

 

[skyedaze]

On the possible double meaning of the text messages...I'm not normally one to read tons of extra stuff into events, but I do think it's a slight possibility here. His response is rather long and abnormal IMHO.
we may never know for sure..but it's weird enough to be possible in this case.

Another thing I think is possible..I think PF's back up plan was/is to throw KK under the bus as the "real" killer. I think he never gave a cr@p about her (or any woman to be honest) and he wanted her to do it so she would absolutely be set up to take the fall for all of it should something go wrong.

AND....I think KK always had CYA on her mind just in case he was setting her up.

Neither one truly trusts the other..cuz they both know they are both bad.

 

[ilovechili]

Maybe KK owed PF a favor for something. That’s why she was so willing to drive 800 miles to clean up the mess. It could not just be because she was desperate for his love. There has to be more in their past together.

Possibly on both parts. Or just his. She covered for him before? Or backed him up? Or bent over backwards for him? So he owed her. Lmao. I think her being "scared" of him is one of the most ludicrous of lies. She was so scared for her daughter, she left her, did not tell her ex hubby someone threatened the daughter, drove all of these miles, then could not carry out the murder which should have made her more afraid of PF... I have to laugh it is so ludicrous... Yes she pinged KB's phone on purpose hoping LE would find her and then when they did would not talk. Then she left blood hoping they would figure it out.... And people think she did not lie to LE... LE knows she has lies in there, I would bet on it...

 

[MassGuy]

Maybe KK owed PF a favor for something. That’s why she was so willing to drive 800 miles to clean up the mess. It could not just be because she was desperate for his love. There has to be more in their past together.

I think she made that drive because it was her end of the bargain.

She was unwilling to do the killing, so her role was the cleanup.

She had to have wanted Kelsey gone as well, atleast somewhere deep inside.

 

[Noharg]

DBM never mind- adds nothing to discussions

 

[Trocroc9]

Possibly on both parts. Or just his. She covered for him before? Or backed him up? Or bent over backwards for him? So he owed her. Lmao. I think her being "scared" of him is one of the most ludicrous of lies. She was so scared for her daughter, she left her, did not tell her ex hubby someone threatened the daughter, drove all of these miles, then could not carry out the murder which should have made her more afraid of PF... I have to laugh it is so ludicrous... Yes she pinged KB's phone on purpose hoping LE would find her and then when they did would not talk. Then she left blood hoping they would figure it out.... And people think she did not lie to LE... LE knows she has lies in there, I would bet on it...

ITA I never saw her as being afraid and I doubt a jury will. Not only will there be lies but there will be pieces she has left out of the story that will never be known as long as PF remains silent.

 

[Trocroc9]

I dont understand what their end game was to be after the murder, and I just don’t get why KK, a mother herself, put PF before her own children. These two have me baffled.
JMO

Whatever it is I think it’s pretty serious. As you said to risk life with your children, your family and your career just makes no sense. I just cannot believe it was for love and attention. If for some reason it was she should be sentenced to a psychiatric ward for the rest of her life since she obviously isn’t getting much time behind bars!!
Maybe that’s May’s plan after trial

 

[ilovechili]

On the possible double meaning of the text messages...I'm not normally one to read tons of extra stuff into events, but I do think it's a slight possibility here. His response is rather long and abnormal IMHO.
we may never know for sure..but it's weird enough to be possible in this case.

Another thing I think is possible..I think PF's back up plan was/is to throw KK under the bus as the "real" killer. I think he never gave a cr@p about her (or any woman to be honest) and he wanted her to do it so she would absolutely be set up to take the fall for all of it should something go wrong.

AND....I think KK always had CYA on her mind just in case he was setting her up.

Neither one truly trusts the other..cuz they both know they are both bad.

I am open to a few things yet and cannot disagree with any of this. The possible double meaning is a bit that is hard to ignore in those texts because it just seems to fit so very well. I think neither trusted the other, that is one thing I am about decided on as well and agree 100 percent. I can't do it Patrick, but if you love me you will, she has to go. Him, well as long as you take the rap, the body, the gun and help me plan it and yes she has to go (for his own reasons)... The remark "you" have a mess to clean up and that came from KK. I did what "you" wanted. And she would say she tried to do what "he" wanted and couldn't quite bring herself to. Neither trusted the other, why would they, each of these two individually even are about what each wants for his or herself. They are both as guilty but she is smarter, they both wanted it (again for their own reasons) but she waited until he did it but he thought he had himself covered with being able to put it on her, come clean up, take the body, the phone, the gun. They both kept their mouths shut but she grabbed a deal first...

Just my own opinion, not speaking for anyone else. My opinion for today anyhow

 

[ilovechili]

Whatever it is I think it’s pretty serious. As you said to risk life with your children, your family and your career just makes no sense. I just cannot believe it was for love and attention. If for some reason it was she should be sentenced to a psychiatric ward for the rest of her life since she obviously isn’t getting much time behind bars!!
Maybe that’s May’s plan after trial

I honestly think and hope there may be a plan for once he is convicted. I sure hope so. They have to put on the best case they can now and that is not against her. And right now she is part of that...

ETA: Meaning I agree. Her time will come...

 

[acutename]

IIRC she said silver handles, as in the color. I expect they are/were most likely silver-colored plastic.





I think PF referred to it awkwardly but if you look at the list of texts between them it's clear. In between when KB's phone sent him the "Do you even love me" text and when he replied with the "I bent over backwards for u" text, KB's phone was either destroyed, or her service cancelled, or something. So PF's last text to KB's phone became undeliverable, and his phone sent a message back to him saying "this text message has expired" meaning it wasn't delivered and can't be delivered, no point in continuing to try. It was his message that expired, not her phone, but he freudian slipped when he described it to LE. IMO all.

Verizon message board says your phone tries to deliver a text for 5 days before it "expires."

"Expired" messages - Verizon Community

(this info seems dated, so not sure if this is still the programming)

 

[Uninformant]

The most charitable explanation for KKs participation is that it started with him blackmailing her with evidence of something that could have ruined her life and ended with him threatening to frame her for the murder if she didn’t come clean up. It’s possible he had something on her that could lead to her losing her kids or nursing license or husband’s business. He solicited her for the murder. She decided to play along to demonstrate willingness then chicken out and hope he doesn’t reveal her secret. But he keeps putting on the pressure and she keeps returning. Maybe she thinks it’s a test and doesn’t think he’s serious. Then he has it done or does it himself and calls her to clean up, potentially with threat he’s got all the evidence of her prior attempts and has left something of hers at the scene to frame her.

 

[ilovechili]

I think she made that drive because it was her end of the bargain.

She was unwilling to do the killing, so her role was the cleanup.

She had to have wanted Kelsey gone as well, atleast somewhere deep inside.

So she knew he was going to do it then? And knew her role was clean-up after she could not carry it out? I do not even mean she knew when just at some point this was agreed to that he would do it as well as her taking the body etc.?

I could see that...

 

[MassGuy]

So she knew he was going to do it then? And knew her role was clean-up after she could not carry it out? I do not even mean she knew when just at some point this was agreed to that he would do it as well as her taking the body etc.?

I could see that...

That’s the best way I can make the sense of “you have a mess to clean up.”

I don’t know if she knew the specific day it was to occur, but I wouldn’t be surprised if she did.

 

[Hatfield]

I know we have sleuthed the phone calls but don’t know how in depth we have gotten here or what I may have missed in threads but a thought just popped in my head so bear with me. If this has been discussed scroll on by.

11/25 5:18 KB texts PF and asks “Do you EVEN love me?”

11/25 5:20 PF texts KB back “Why would I bend over backwards and stand behind you thru everything if I didn’t? So to answer your question yes I do”

11/25 5:21 PF calls KB and gets message phone has expired

11/25 5:28 PF receives call from Suzette Ruzner (aka KK burner phone)

Maybe I’m just coming in late here (most likely) but initially I thought PF was just texting himself to KB’s phone I didn’t realize at this point (because I didn’t examine dates and times) that KK is already in Idaho with KB’s phone asking PF if he EVEN loves her. His response is interesting to say the least. I can’t help but think these last texts had dual meaning and purpose among the monsters.

JMO
Its an interesting thought.

Im still struggling with the purse, keys, and KB's cars being left there.

We know they are dumb but still. If they were trying to sell a suicide mission then surely they did not think LE would assume KB walked to Idaho.

And I still am not convinced they burned the body just based on my bias of knowing how difficult it is to even burn wood logs down to complete ash. Unless they had a super large roaring hot fire and about 4-6 hours burn time its just not possible IMO to get a clean burn of a body.

So I think what they did instead was get rid of the body elsewhere. Not sure where. Maybe a father figure of PF's had a wood chipper. Or maybe there is an abandoned gold mine near Cripple Creek. Remember the ex-girlfriend from Dateline said PF knew where he could get rid of a body where nobody would find it. And that was years before KB's murder. So I think maybe PF had a place in the back of his mind for years and finally used the spot he had planned.

I do think KK and PF did burn the Tote and all the other evidence like KB's purse, some of PF's and KK's bloody clothing like her hospital cleanup suit, rubber gloves, etc. in the Tote. So they definitely burned the Tote because it would also have body fluids and odor in it so it needed burned. Im just not convinced they attempted to burn KB's body in it.

And here is another thing about KB's cars. Keys dont burn. So if they attempted to burn the purse and KB's keys were in that purse, then those keys would still be something that would never burn. PF would have had to dump the keys wherever he allegedly dumped the burned tote remains.

Its interesting that very early on we joked about maybe PF stupidly threw KB's purse along with her body down an abandoned mine shaft before realizing her car keys were in the purse. Im starting to now consider that as a real possibility. LOL Maybe that is why they got stuck not being able to remove one of her vehicles. Maybe the original plan was for KK to drive one of her vehicles up into the mountains and abandon it near some deep woods to make it look like she walked off into the woods to off herself.

Its all a confusing mess they created and its almost like they were making up some of the plan as they went along. I think some of their actions cause them to change up some of their original plans because things werent going as they had it first figured.

Anyway, sorry this post got too long with so many musings.

One thing for sure. Its going to be very interesting as we learn more facts and eventually get to the trial.

This is going to be one amazing trial where there are bound to be fireworks in the trial as the Prosecution (i.e. KK) squares off against the Defense (i.e., PF).

Its going to be one heck of a battle at trial and I plan to witness it live one way or another. Hopefully cameras are allowed, and if not then I will have 3 or 4 twitter feeds going and hitting enter every second.

 

[ilovechili]

honestly..they prob had a few beers after such a busy day and watched "the fire"

Yep! At least a few. While I am guessing "ma" watched "his" baby while PF and KK were burning baby's ma... While baby was on the same property as ma burned... I would say these "people" make me sick but I hate to call them people... Hoist a beer, tell me the details honey, while we do a jig...

Ibuprofen? A majority of women have that in their purse. A nurse does not have that with? Or Midol at that age? Or more as a nurse? I have nurses in my family.... PF had to bring her Ibuprofen...

Maybe she switched purses and IDs too along with vehicles and other things...

Sorry, just my own response, I am not speaking for you just adding my own outrage to your post. And this farfetched garbage from KK some believe, why would she lie? I doubt LE believes it all either... They simply have to focus on PF and put on the best case for that from what I understand...

 

[Seattle1]

JMO
Its an interesting thought.

Im still struggling with the purse, keys, and KB's cars being left there.

We know they are dumb but still. If they were trying to sell a suicide mission then surely they did not think LE would assume KB walked to Idaho.

And I still am not convinced they burned the body just based on my bias of knowing how difficult it is to even burn wood logs down to complete ash. Unless they had a super large roaring hot fire and about 4-6 hours burn time its just not possible IMO to get a clean burn of a body.

So I think what they did instead was get rid of the body elsewhere. Not sure where. Maybe a father figure of PF's had a wood chipper. Or maybe there is an abandoned gold mine near Cripple Creek. Remember the ex-girlfriend from Dateline said PF knew where he could get rid of a body where nobody would find it. And that was years before KB's murder. So I think maybe PF had a place in the back of his mind for years and finally used the spot he had planned.

I do think KK and PF did burn the Tote and all the other evidence like KB's purse, some of PF's and KK's bloody clothing like her hospital cleanup suit, rubber gloves, etc. in the Tote. So they definitely burned the Tote because it would also have body fluids and odor in it so it needed burned. Im just not convinced they attempted to burn KB's body in it.

And here is another thing about KB's cars. Keys dont burn. So if they attempted to burn the purse and KB's keys were in that purse, then those keys would still be something that would never burn. PF would have had to dump the keys wherever he allegedly dumped the burned tote remains.

Its interesting that very early on we joked about maybe PF stupidly threw KB's purse along with her body down an abandoned mine shaft before realizing her car keys were in the purse. Im starting to now consider that as a real possibility. LOL Maybe that is why they got stuck not being able to remove one of her vehicles. Maybe the original plan was for KK to drive one of her vehicles up into the mountains and abandon it near some deep woods to make it look like she walked off into the woods to off herself.

Its all a confusing mess they created and its almost like they were making up some of the plan as they went along. I think some of their actions cause them to change up some of their original plans because things werent going as they had it first figured.

Anyway, sorry this post got too long with so many musings.

One thing for sure. Its going to be very interesting as we learn more facts and eventually get to the trial.

This is going to be one amazing trial where there are bound to be fireworks in the trial as the Prosecution (i.e. KK) squares off against the Defense (i.e., PF).

Its going to be one heck of a battle at trial and I plan to witness it live one way or another. Hopefully cameras are allowed, and if not then I will have 3 or 4 twitter feeds going and hitting enter every second.

No keys burned. KK says she threw them in a gorge in Idaho. She allegedly burned KB's phone in her yard, and disposed of the remnants at the hospital where she worked.

 

[Hatfield]

No keys burned. KK says she threw them in a gorge in Idaho. She allegedly burned KB's phone in her yard, and disposed of the remnants at the hospital where she worked.

Thanks. I missed that in the documents about the keys.

ETA....The keys should be recoverable if KK is supposed to be cooperating and knows exactly where she was standing when she allegedly threw them over the side. Not sure I believe her about anything though and maybe LE doesnt quite believe her either so could be why they are not searching for them.

 

[ilovechili]

JMO
Its an interesting thought.

Im still struggling with the purse, keys, and KB's cars being left there.

We know they are dumb but still. If they were trying to sell a suicide mission then surely they did not think LE would assume KB walked to Idaho.

And I still am not convinced they burned the body just based on my bias of knowing how difficult it is to even burn wood logs down to complete ash. Unless they had a super large roaring hot fire and about 4-6 hours burn time its just not possible IMO to get a clean burn of a body.

So I think what they did instead was get rid of the body elsewhere. Not sure where. Maybe a father figure of PF's had a wood chipper. Or maybe there is an abandoned gold mine near Cripple Creek. Remember the ex-girlfriend from Dateline said PF knew where he could get rid of a body where nobody would find it. And that was years before KB's murder. So I think maybe PF had a place in the back of his mind for years and finally used the spot he had planned.

I do think KK and PF did burn the Tote and all the other evidence like KB's purse, some of PF's and KK's bloody clothing like her hospital cleanup suit, rubber gloves, etc. in the Tote. So they definitely burned the Tote because it would also have body fluids and odor in it so it needed burned. Im just not convinced they attempted to burn KB's body in it.

And here is another thing about KB's cars. Keys dont burn. So if they attempted to burn the purse and KB's keys were in that purse, then those keys would still be something that would never burn. PF would have had to dump the keys wherever he allegedly dumped the burned tote remains.

Its interesting that very early on we joked about maybe PF stupidly threw KB's purse along with her body down an abandoned mine shaft before realizing her car keys were in the purse. Im starting to now consider that as a real possibility. LOL Maybe that is why they got stuck not being able to remove one of her vehicles. Maybe the original plan was for KK to drive one of her vehicles up into the mountains and abandon it near some deep woods to make it look like she walked off into the woods to off herself.

Its all a confusing mess they created and its almost like they were making up some of the plan as they went along. I think some of their actions cause them to change up some of their original plans because things werent going as they had it first figured.

Anyway, sorry this post got too long with so many musings.

One thing for sure. Its going to be very interesting as we learn more facts and eventually get to the trial.

This is going to be one amazing trial where there are bound to be fireworks in the trial as the Prosecution (i.e. KK) squares off against the Defense (i.e., PF).

Its going to be one heck of a battle at trial and I plan to witness it live one way or another. Hopefully cameras are allowed, and if not then I will have 3 or 4 twitter feeds going and hitting enter every second.

They were very excellent musings. Brain cells will do that I also doubt the body was burned and then KK had pizza, Ibuprofen and traveled in a few hours. I am a fire girl. It is amazing the things that will not burn with even fuel. And how many hours it takes. And I know it by a potbelly stove and an open fire pit and a barrel. By fire girl, I mean nothing bad, I mean junk mail, magazines, newspaper inserts, etc. Plastic. Styrofoam. Bigger things. Metal. Etc. The body burned there and the body not found is the most doubtful part of this case, not because they need a body so much as that the story of what happened to the body just does not make sense and not in that timeline. I don't buy it.

And then along with KK's story that PF was communicative and chatty with her about every last detail when no one, even those that defend him to no end, like CC, have ever hinted at any such thing. He was allegedly just the opposite.

It will be a total battle at trial. Look at the witness they have. Hardly ideal.

Some think that is a knock at LE. So tired of hearing that, it is not. Most LE will tell you they take the case they have and sometimes it is not always there. They have to deal with the devil and sometimes after the deal they find they have exactly done that to get another devil. And they HATE it.

Homolka. OJ. Casey. Most thought and believed they would be slam dunks. Just naming a few... Not talking about deals there, except with Homolka... But still. It happens...

Just my own opinion not speaking for you or anyone else. Just jumping off of your post...

And it does not make me anti LE, I am realistic with LE, not every case is magic like CSI or a Perry Mason moment. And the good ones in LE will tell ya that.

Again just my own opinion. Not speaking for you or anyone else.