Deceased/Not Found CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #54 *ARREST*

[PommyMommy]

AUG 23, 2019
Patrick Frazee defense gets deadline for identifying 'alternate suspects' in Kelsey Berreth's apparent murder
[…]

While being quizzed about his toddler daughter at the Teller County jail days after his arrest, Frazee claimed that he’d had repeated contact with Berreth in the days following Thanksgiving, when she was allegedly murdered.

The defense argues the statements shouldn’t be admissible because Frazee was in custody at the jail, and the DHS worker asked incriminating questions.

Prosecutors countered that the employee, Mary Longmire, was trying to find the best possible placement for Frazee’s daughter while he was jailed, and that Longmire followed the law in how she distributed the confidential information.

“She was not working at the behest of law enforcement or knowledge of law enforcement,” prosecutor Viehman said. “She was doing her job.”

The visit by DHS was prompted by a report from Woodland Park police that the toddler girl could have been exposed to violence on or around the holiday.

[…]

 

[MsBetsy]

Patrick Frazee asking court to exclude 16-page child welfare assessment | Daily Mail Online
SABBM:
The employee asked a series of child welfare questions which resulted in Frazee's child being taken into custody and given to the parents of alleged murder victim Kelsey Berreth while the criminal proceedings continue.

But defenders argue the questions asked of Frazee included some pointed questions about what happened around Thanksgiving, as well as if Frazee or Berreth shared a history of substance abuse or neglect.
________________________
Chris Spargo strikes again.

I guess he doesn't want all those lies he told about Kelsey exposed to the court.

In this article they say he burned the body on top of haystacks at a nearby farm.
One would think after reporting on this case from the beginning they would get it right. He would have burned the entire barn down if he had set the hay on fire. Imo

 

[MassGuy]

I guess he doesn't want all those lies he told about Kelsey exposed to the court.

In this article they say he burned the body on top of haystacks at a nearby farm.
One would think after reporting on this case from the beginning they would get it right. He would have burned the entire barn down if he had set the hay on fire. Imo

It sure does:
Frazee meanwhile left the murder scene to have Thanksgiving dinner with his family and then allegedly returned to collect Berreth's body and burn it on a pile of haystacks at a nearby farm said Slater.

Nope. Slater said no such thing.

Spargo doesn’t just “phone it in.” He phones it in while under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

Probably both.

 

[GordianKnot]

You may not know this, but I hate that man.

“Defenders,” what the hell?!

Two people contributed to this article, but the bad parts are definitely his.

He’s as useless as the “G” in “lasagna.”

BBM:

Righhhhht?

"Defenders," indeed.

It's like he's conflating the D.C. Comics Justice League with PF's legal team.

Were they wearing capes in the courtroom or something?

JMO.

 

[gitana1]

@gitana1 what do you think about this?

The DHS worker interviewed him without his lawyer present and likely after he had invoked his Miranda.

He was told that he did not have to comply, but did anyway.

@GordianKnot linked a case that seems to provide precedent here, ruling that an interview with CPS (in the case cited) should have been ruled inadmissible.

The case linked is a second district federal court ruling. This is not federal court so federal court decisions aren't controlling and even if it was a federal court trial, the second circuit is not controlling. It's New York and Connecticut, etc.

However, it does provide an argument that could affect decisions in this state because judges and attorneys will be aware of it and the reasoning.

That being said, there has to be more than just he had been given his Miranda warnings. Because then someone who confesses to a wife or cell mate or whatever, while in custody, upon being questioned, could have the confession thrown out and that's too broad.

What they need is:
1. Custody - the person has to be arrested or detained in such a manner that they believe they're not free to leave.
2. Interrogation - they have to be undergoing questioning.
3. It has to be LE who is doing the questioning.

So: Cops + Custody + Interrogation = Miranda.

But there is some variation. The 2nd circuit court of appeals apparently determined a CPS worker was law enforcement of some kind.

State laws can differ. In People v. Vleck (1969) 114 Il.App.2nd 74 the court of appeals decided that Miranda was applicable to LE officers only.

Notably, in the US Supreme Court decision of Illinois v. Perkins, 496 U.S. 292 (1990), the court held that undercover cops could question a perp in jail without giving the Miranda warning.

It's really about psychologically, does the defendant feel he is being coerced or pressured or intimidated by a law enforcement agent of some sort who is questioning him when he's not free to leave.

When and where was PF when CPS agents questioned him?

(Sorry about the bold. I'm on my phone and can't fix it).

 

[katydid23]

The case linked is a second district federal court ruling. This is not federal court so federal court decisions aren't controlling and even if it was a federal court trial, the second circuit is not controlling. It's New York and Connecticut, etc.

However, it does provide an argument that could affect decisions in this state because judges and attorneys will be aware of it and the reasoning.

That being said, there has to be more than just he had been given his Miranda warnings. Because then someone who confesses to a wife or cell mate or whatever, while in custody, upon being questioned, could have the confession thrown out and that's too broad.

What they need is:
1. Custody - the person has to be arrested or detained in such a manner that they believe they're not free to leave.
2. Interrogation - they have to be undergoing questioning.
3. It has to be LE who is doing the questioning.

So: Cops + Custody + Interrogation = Miranda.

But there is some variation. The 2nd circuit court of appeals apparently determined a CPS worker was law enforcement of some kind.

State laws can differ. In People v. Vleck (1969) 114 Il.App.2nd 74 the court of appeals decided that Miranda was applicable to LE officers only.

Notably, in the US Supreme Court decision of Illinois v. Perkins, 496 U.S. 292 (1990), the court held that undercover cops could question a perp in jail without giving the Miranda warning.

It's really about psychologically, does the defendant feel he is being coerced or pressured or intimidated by a law enforcement agent of some sort who is questioning him when he's not free to leave.

When and where was PF when CPS agents questioned him?

(Sorry about the bold. I'm on my phone and can't fix it).

It's really about psychologically, does the defendant feel he is being coerced or pressured or intimidated by a law enforcement agent of some sort who is questioning him when he's not free to leave.

When and where was PF when CPS agents questioned him?


Oh Oh, that ^^^ could be a problem. Frazee was in jail at the time, charged with murder.



Sam Kraemer on Twitter
To start that process, Longmire contacted the court to hold an emergency proceeding related to custody of the couple’s daughter. That was granted. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee
9:14 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Ashley Franco on Twitter
Longmier says Kaylee Frazee was brought to the DHS office by Woodland Park PD. DHS called court to request emergency custody of KF. @KKTV11News #PatrickFrazee #KelseyBerreth
9:14 AM - 23 Aug 2019


[However the CPS agent said she told him he did not need to speak to her if he didn't want to.]

 

[katydid23]

[ THANK YOU POMMY, FOR ALL OF THESE TWEETS]


The motion is to suppress the interview #PatrickFrazee did with a Teller County DHS employee. @KKTV11News
9:02 AM - 23 Aug 2019


Carol McKinley on Twitter
At #patrickfrazee hearing in Teller County Courtroom, a human services worker, Mary Longmire, who visited Frazee the day after Christmas 2018 is on the stand to discuss statements Frazee made to her during a jail visit. @ABC @Clayton_Sandell
9:07 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
State now calls Mary Longmire, the DHS employee that met with Frazee and interrogated him on Dec. 26 regarding the custody situation. She’ll have 15 years with the department this October. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee
9:07 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Ashley Franco on Twitter
Sgt. has been excused from the stand. Mary Longmire with Teller County DHS is taking the stand now to testify. She's been with DHS for 15 years. @KKTV11News #PatrickFrazee #KelseyBerreth
9:07 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Dani Fried on Twitter
Mary is the child services family administrator with DHS. This is all related to #patrickfrazee and #kelseyberreth’s daughter
9:08 AM - 23 Aug 2019

 

[katydid23]

Viehman asks Longmire to describe the intake procedure. She says allegations drive it. Longmire says the case worker then goes to interview the parents, digs into records & gathers more info. From there, they decide on the child’s well-being. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee
9:09 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Ashley Franco on Twitter
Before a caseworker goes out they have to be referred or a report has to be made before they can go to a case. Law enforcement can send a referral in the event they need it for a case like this. @KKTV11News #PatrickFrazee #kelseyBerreth
9:09 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
Viehman asks Longmire if this is standard procedure. She says yes, that it’s in line with the children’s code in the Colorado Code of Regulations. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee
9:10 AM - 23 Aug 2019


Mary was involved in Kaley’s referral which came from a confidential source. Council is now approaching the bench. #patrickfrazee
9:12 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Lance Benzel on Twitter
In Cripple Creek for #PatrickFrazee’s pre-trial motions hearing in the alleged murder of his fiancée Kelsey Berreth. Stay tuned for significant updates. @csgazette
9:12 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Ashley Franco on Twitter
December 21st 2018, DHS received a referral about Kaylee Frazee, they're referring to her as "KF" in this instance. Longmier says the referral came from Woodland Park PD. @KKTV11News#PatrickFrazee
9:12 AM - 23 Aug 2019

 

[katydid23]

When Mary received the referral for this case in Dec. she met with the Woodland Park PD and they from KF to her. Once she was brought to the office the entire process began starting with calling the court to request a emergency custody. #patrickfrazee
9:13 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
To start that process, Longmire contacted the court to hold an emergency proceeding related to custody of the couple’s daughter. That was granted. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee
9:14 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Ashley Franco on Twitter
Longmier says Kaylee Frazee was brought to the DHS office by Woodland Park PD. DHS called court to request emergency custody of KF. @KKTV11News #PatrickFrazee #KelseyBerreth
9:14 AM - 23 Aug 2019

 

[katydid23]

Teller county department of human services received legal custody of KF. At this point Mary started to interview and speak with other relatives of KF including Sheila Frazee #patrickfrazees mother.She also spoke with Aaron Frazee and on the 21st she met and spoke w/ Patrick
9:15 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Ashley Franco on Twitter
DHS spoke with Sheila and Erin Frazee on Dec 21st. She also went to the Teller County Jail to meet with #PatrickFrazee. She was notifying him they had custody of KF. @KKTV11News
9:15 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
Longmire says she made contact with other relatives. She spoke with Sheila Frazee & Erin Frazee on the 21st. She also spoke with Patrick at the Teller County Jail to serve him with notice for the custody proceeding & start the case process. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee
9:16 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Longmire says she made an appointment for that meeting, which went between 45 minutes to an hour. She says she informed him about the process & explained what the allegation was. @KOAA#KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee
9:17 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Ashley Franco on Twitter
Longmier identifies #PatrickFrazee in the courtroom. On Dec 21st when she met with him she told him he was arrested for allegations of murdering his child's mother and that's why KF was placed in DHS custody. @KKTV11News
9:17 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Dani Fried on Twitter
On the 21st when she met with #patrickfrazee it was so she could inform him that th police department had custody of KF. On the 21st she spent 45-1 hour providing the information for him and she gave him a short explanation of what the allegation was.
9:17 AM - 23 Aug 2019

 

[katydid23]

Her explanation was that he was arrested for Kelsey Berreth’s murder, and due to his incarceration, DHS didn’t have a parent to place the couple’s daughter with. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth#PatrickFrazee
9:17 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Dani Fried on Twitter
Mary told #patrickfrazee that he has been arrested for the murder of KFs mother) the main issue for the DHS was that there wasn’t a parent available to place KF. Ultimately the Berreth’s received custody of KF.
9:18 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Ashley Franco on Twitter
Longmier says she spoke with the Berreth's as well. They received physical custody of KF on Dec 21st. @KKTV11News #PatrickFrazee
9:19 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Longmire says she visited Sheila Frazee at her home on Dec. 27, in addition to phone contact with Erin Frazee & the Berreths. She says she also met Patrick at the Teller County Jail on Dec. 26. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee
9:21 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Dani Fried on Twitter
During her meeting with #patrickfrazee on the 26th, she interviewed him at the TC jail, after making an appointment that was delayed. She returned later in the evening to meet with him. He was not available when she first arrived.
9:22 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
Longmire says she called to set up an appointment. She says intake workers often go to the jail. Her initial appointment was delayed so she returned in the evening for another appointment at 7 p.m. that day. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee

 

[katydid23]

Viehman asks what room they met in. Longmire says the video advisement room, describing it with a round table, 2-3 chairs, a TV, one door & a window looking into the deputy’s workspace. She says she was put in that room. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee
9:23 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Dani Fried on Twitter
She came back at 7 PM on the 26th. #patrickfrazee was brought into the room by a deputy. He may not have been in handcuffs. The deputy did not stay in the room.
9:24 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Ashley Franco on Twitter
Longmier says she met with #PatrickFrazee at the Teller County jail on Dec 26th. She went to the jail at 7p and met with him in the video advisement room. She says There was not a deputy in the room when she met with Frazee at the jail. @KKTV11News
9:24 AM - 23 Aug 2019

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I got an email today:
Thread Reader App
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Thread by @SamKraemerTV: "Alright, we’re inside. Both teams of attorneys are here, as is Sheila Frazee (Patrick’s mother). DA Dan May is not here, at least yet. They’ […]" #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee #KrystalKenney

 

[PommyMommy]

Bringing over from the media thread:

I sure hope that the precious toddler did not see the violence.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I think he lied when he told people those stories about her running off for days. The reason I don't find him credible is because one of those stories was shown to be false.

He had told people that she ran from the hospital and abandoned their baby and he had to bring the baby home by himself. But then we saw professional 'family photos' taken at the hospital of two smiling parents and their newborn baby. To me, that disproves his version of events. In my experience, the photographer takes these photos towards the end of the hospital stay.

I think he told all of his friends and clients that KB was crazy and erratic because he had planned to rid himself of her for awhile. He needed people to believe she would run off, irresponsibly.

BBM, I haven’t seen this discussed before. Do you have a link? I’m interested in brushing up on all of PF’s lies, as we wait for the trial.

 

[gitana1]

Hey, but here's a more recent update to that case I cited in a previous post.
@gitana1, please disregard @MassGuy's previous tag.

The Supreme Count of Ohio reversed the appellate court's earlier decision on that case:

FindLaw's Supreme Court of Ohio case and opinions.

SABBM:
{¶ 30} A social worker's statutory duty to cooperate and share information with law enforcement with respect to a child abuse investigation does not render the social worker an agent of law enforcement for purposes of the Fifth and Sixth Amendments to the United States Constitution when the social worker interviews an alleged perpetrator unless other evidence demonstrates that the social worker acted at the direction or under the control of law enforcement. In this case, no evidence indicates that Mack acted at the direction or under the control of law enforcement when she interviewed Jackson.

{¶ 31} Accordingly, we reverse the judgment of the appellate court, and we remand this case to that court to consider the assignments of error it did not address.
_____________________

So now, I'm feeling more hopeful that the judge is going to rule in the DA's favor on this one.
It would be great to Score 1 for the Good Guys here.

JMO.

Thanks for that. I found it a surprising decision.

 

[gitana1]

It's really about psychologically, does the defendant feel he is being coerced or pressured or intimidated by a law enforcement agent of some sort who is questioning him when he's not free to leave.

When and where was PF when CPS agents questioned him?


Oh Oh, that ^^^ could be a problem. Frazee was in jail at the time, charged with murder.



Sam Kraemer on Twitter
To start that process, Longmire contacted the court to hold an emergency proceeding related to custody of the couple’s daughter. That was granted. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee
9:14 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Ashley Franco on Twitter
Longmier says Kaylee Frazee was brought to the DHS office by Woodland Park PD. DHS called court to request emergency custody of KF. @KKTV11News #PatrickFrazee #KelseyBerreth
9:14 AM - 23 Aug 2019


[However the CPS agent said she told him he did not need to speak to her if he didn't want to.]

I think it will be ok. I mean even the second circuit decision (which is not controlling here) was apparently overturned. Which makes sense.

I don't think CPS officials are considered LE.

 

[MsBetsy]

It's really about psychologically, does the defendant feel he is being coerced or pressured or intimidated by a law enforcement agent of some sort who is questioning him when he's not free to leave.

When and where was PF when CPS agents questioned him?


Oh Oh, that ^^^ could be a problem. Frazee was in jail at the time, charged with murder.



Sam Kraemer on Twitter
To start that process, Longmire contacted the court to hold an emergency proceeding related to custody of the couple’s daughter. That was granted. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee
9:14 AM - 23 Aug 2019

Ashley Franco on Twitter
Longmier says Kaylee Frazee was brought to the DHS office by Woodland Park PD. DHS called court to request emergency custody of KF. @KKTV11News #PatrickFrazee #KelseyBerreth
9:14 AM - 23 Aug 2019


[However the CPS agent said she told him he did not need to speak to her if he didn't want to.]

I don't see why his being in jail would make a difference. CPS workers have to conduct interviews in jail if that's where the parent resides.
She was investigating allegations of child abuse and the states move for custody. She was not LE investigating a murder, but she had to ask him questions about the circumstances surrounding the day Kelsey disappeared in order to find out where the child was during that time.

LE can use documentation from child abuse cases when a crime has been committed, can't they? Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

I think it will be ok. I mean even the second circuit decision (which is not controlling here) was apparently overturned. Which makes sense.

I don't think CPS officials are considered LE.

No, I've never known any CPS workers who are LE, although I've heard many parents complain that they act like they are.
They made need assistance from LE when removing a child from a home, though, especially if the parents are aggressive or a danger to them. Imo

 

[gitana1]

I don't see why his being in jail would make a difference. CPS workers have to conduct interviews in jail if that's where the parent resides.
She was investigating allegations of child abuse and the states move for custody. She was not LE investigating a murder, but she had to ask him questions about the circumstances surrounding the day Kelsey disappeared in order to find out where the child was during that time.

LE can use documentation from child abuse cases when a crime has been committed, can't they? Imo

Well Miranda warnings are meant to prevent a person from feeling pressured into self incrimination by the circumstances of being arrested, interrogated and a law enforcement authority doing the questioning or being present.

I guess the second circuit felt CPS workers could be considered law enforcement agents of some sort. It didn't seem right to me but circumstance is important. If the worker was yelling and intimidating and reporting to LE, it could pose a problem, apparently, in some jurisdictions.

One case I read involved the tone of the interrogator. The record indicated the defendant was having a calm and cordial conversation.

But I don't know. CPS workers aren't about conducting investigations that lead to criminal charges. It's about investigations that determine whether kids are removed or not.

So who is doing the interrogating and for what purpose seems important.

ETA: It's not whether they are also actual known law enforcement officials but whether they may be considered such. So in various cases it was considered that fire marshals might be akin to LE or or IRS agents.

But considered doesn't mean established.