CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #9

[Irmese]

but the aunt came on WS long enough to verify that PF picked up the child at KB's townhouse after Safeway. So there are more inconsistencies.

IMO, that story came from what PF told CB.

 

[Kapua]

This post lands at random. I have sat silent while many posters have consistently bashed PF for still living with his mother. Now while I would never defend his alleged animal care behavior, his living with his mother, especially if she is in need of help should not be used to criticize him. My brother lived with our mom to help her until he died unexpectedly. He was single with no children and frankly was the only place available for years. He was a wonderful man and animal lover I might add. I just would like to share that it’s not always Norman Bates types that stay at home with their mothers. I find these comments very hurtful.

My uncle lived with my grandmother for most of his life, too. He was a sweet man. And PF living with his mom doesn't influence my opinion of him one way or the other.

 

[scdiv]

From the earliest Websleuth posts about information in the first press conference:

View attachment 160439
CO - CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018

Whoever had PF's phone on that Nov 25th must have sent Kelsey's mom disinformation that calmed her enough to where she didn't send Kelsey's brother to Kelsey's duplex until Dec 2nd.

The second part of the comment/post you attached was NOT stated in the press conference. We have never had confirmation of the date KB's mother reached out to PF. It was not said in the press conference that CB reached out to PF on 11/25. Only that she reached out to PF (date/time not stated) and he told her the last time he heard from KB was when he got a text from her phone on 11/25.

 

[susiQ]

But the thing is, as far as I can tell, there is zero corroboration for any breakup taking place. Isn’t that right? So speculation about a breakup would have to have some basis in fact, which we do not have. And certainly no reason to believe that her mother would lie on national TV as some kind of tactical move.

My understanding is, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, that her aunt posted about a break up on SM, but was asked to remove it? It's possible that piece of info on a "break up" is a bit of a red herring if it came from PF. If it's only HIS word, and that after she was already missing, it is suspect.

 

[Kapua]

My understanding is, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, that her aunt posted about a break up on SM, but was asked to remove it? It's possible that piece of info on a "break up" is a bit of a red herring if it came from PF. If it's only HIS word, and that after she was already missing, it is suspect.

It is also only HIS word that he 'picked up' their child (as if it was pre-arranged, and on her first day off that week, and this being her first chance to spend quality time with their child.) What could have happened is that he took possession of their child after her mother... was no longer able to care for her.

 

[Hatfield]

JMO
Been thinking about the sideways parking. It would be real interesting to know if that was unusual or if he did that all the time.

One thing about doing that is if the truck was parked like I think it was then it hides a lane leading up to his trucks door. It would give a somewhat hidden path to one of the doors. Either passenger door or drivers door.

Trying to draw it below. This may not come out but will try to draw a picture. The "vvv" is the hidden lane leading up to either the front driver door or passenger door of the sideways parked vehicle.

|---|vvv|---|
|---|vvv|---|
|---|vvv|---|
|---|vvv|---|
-----------------
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[Breezie]

Delete

 

[Lhughessk]

Left on her own is inconsistent with the few facts we know. Here's what I have so far:

- KB and child went to Safeway around 12:30 MST on 11/22, as evidenced by store video.
- Her cars were parked in her driveway as of 12/2, as reported by her brother.
- Her suitcases and cosmetics were not removed from her home, as reported by her brother.
- Her purse and cell phone are missing, too.
- PF has the child that KB was last seen with.
- KB's phone sent two texts on 11/25, one to her boss and one to PF
- CB, KB's mom reported her missing on 12/2.- Phone ping in Gooding, ID on 11/25 at 5:13pm
- Cinnamon rolls were left out on the counter

If she left on her own, she left with her purse and without her child or her two cars. That implies that PF did indeed "pick up the child" (or she dropped her off). So yes, another person is remotely possible if you believe 1) that on her day off, KB voluntarily left K in the care of PF, and 2) she left home with only her purse/cell phone (how?) and not her cars/makeup/fresh cinnamon rolls.

I don’t think the facts as you stated them are inconsistent with her leaving on her own. But you have to keep in mind the option you didn’t touch on, which is Kelsey leaving on her own but under false pretenses.

Kelsey’s house did not have a garage. And we know that the neighbors tended to be watchful. Nobody incapacitated Kelsey inside her house and then dragged her unconscious or dead body out to their vehicle in broad daylight, I don’t believe.

What makes the most sense to me is that someone invited Kelsey to go with them in their vehicle. Most likely they already had bad intent. She brought along her purse and cell phone out of habit, and because the other party was operating under false pretenses, they couldn’t stop her from doing so. And if I’m right about that, then police should eventually have data, if they don’t have it all ready, showing the phone leaving Kelsey‘s house and pinging of a series of cell towers sometime after the Safeway trip. And if PF is responsible for her disappearance, then he’s got to be concerned. Because there will be the telltale digital fingerprints of his phone and her phone pinging off the same cell towers at the same times. And this would run counter to his story that He picked up the baby and left.

 

[Seattle1]

This post lands at random. I have sat silent while many posters have consistently bashed PF for still living with his mother. Now while I would never defend his alleged animal care behavior, his living with his mother, especially if she is in need of help should not be used to criticize him. My brother lived with our mom to help her until he died unexpectedly. He was single with no children and frankly was the only place available for years. He was a wonderful man and animal lover I might add. I just would like to share that it’s not always Norman Bates types that stay at home with their mothers. I find these comments very hurtful.

I'm sorry for the loss of your brother. As he was single, with no children, and chose to help your mother until his death, I think he was probably an unselfish and generous person. Respectfully, I do not think your brother and PK are comparable. PK has a child, and is reportedly engaged to KB. Baring any untold circumstance, I believe KB would rather be building a home and future with her mate and 15 month old child, under their own roof, and not his mother's. I just don't believe PF gave any consideration to KB's wishes, or their future, resulting in KB purchasing her own residence in May of this year. MOO

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I lived 1.4 miles from KB now that i have read a recent post on here with her street name. Woodland Park is a small town ! When we had car trouble I never felt unsafe to walk to the Safeway or Walmart by myself even later in the evening. Also after 11pm most nights our traffic lights would turn to flashing lights (simply meaning merge cautiously) because it's a quiet small town and no one would be out that late. Much different from Colorado Springs.

If you know (depending on how long ago you lived there), does Woodland Park have residential mail delivery, or must everyone have a PO Box?

So we know that the last confirmed sighting of her was in Safeway at 12:05 -12:27, and then PF was at her house between 12:30 and 1:00. Those are pretty well confirmed times; however, how do we know that she did not disappear in the night or on Nov.24?

We don’t, although law enforcement likely has a pretty good idea.

Her cell phone activity will be very important to the timeline, as well as details as to how she typically kept her house.

Would she normally leave food out for an extended period of time?

It seems likely to me that if KB had been around even one day after Thanksgiving, there would have been another phone call with her mom. Probably to report on the success of the requested recipe, or to ask about the holiday, etc.

Hmmmm neighbor remembered the car/trucks being there exactly precisely at acertain time on 11/22 , when news came out that KB was missing 10 days later???

Considering those three vehicles were probably in and out of KBs driveway many times a week the chances of this being a false memory are pretty strong. People do not remember mundane details accurately, especially 10+ days later. The trucks/car memory easily could have really been from 11/20or 11/21, or any random date. JMO

With Thanksgiving being such a focus on gathering with others, I think neighbors take notice of the activity of single people on that day. If they thought KB was home with no plans, she easily might have been invited to join neighbors for the meal. I would not be at all surprised if the neighbor took particular note on that day of whether KB appeared to have plans or a visitor.

In my experience and opinion.

 

[Kapua]

Snipped for focus.

Do we know the texts were sent after the contact from Kelsey’s mom to PF?

If they were, wouldn’t that rule out him being in Gooding, Idaho? Otherwise his phone would’ve pinged there as well.

I’ve seen speculation that he left his phone at home so he could use her phone to text himself along with her employer, but if he had a phone call with KB’s mom that day, that wouldn’t work. He’d have to have the phone on him.

Now, perhaps his phone did ping in the same place or hundreds of miles from his home, and that’s why police were able to get a search warrant for the farm.

No, we do not know the timing of the texts. A poster several threads back suggested that PF did not text mom CB because she would have read the text and called him, thereby messing up his alibi. I thought that was brilliant. It was Sunday. Her boss would not have read the text. The other text was to himself. He would have had to leave his cell phone at home to create this diversion.
I am 75% on board with this theory and 25% 'false ping'.

 

[allboys]

Interesting and this seems to confirm he was physically at her house that day. I wonder if he always parked sideways or if that was unusual.

"“I looked up there, and there was both red pickups there Thanksgiving Day. And that was from 12:30 [p.m.] to 1 p.m.,” the neighbor said. “The other two cars were parked with the vehicles facing the apartment, but his was parked sideways behind them.”

Neighbor: Kelsey Berreth is ‘a very kind-hearted person’

Yes, I would REALLY like to know if he usually parked sideways. If he didn’t, I can think of only 2 reasons why he might have parked like that.

 

[Irmese]

I suspect that someone else at the ranch (pretending to be Patrick) texted Kelsey's mom back on Nov 25th using Patrick's phone.

CB said PF called her back on the 25th, right? Or do I have that wrong? I know that my sister and I sound so much alike on the phone that our husbands can't tell us apart. I'm starting to think someone else had to be involved.

ETA OK, looking at the timeline thread, it says CB called PF on Dec. 2, then he called her back.

"Sunday, Dec. 2
Kelsey’s mother, Cheryl, reported her daughter missing after being unable to reach her. Cheryl reached out to Frazee, who called her back and said he hadn’t heard from her since she had last texted."

 

[PommyMommy]

JMO
Been thinking about the sideways parking. It would be real interesting to know if that was unusual or if he did that all the time.

One thing about doing that is if the truck was parked like I think it was then it hides a lane leading up to his trucks door. It would give a somewhat hidden path to one of the doors. Either passenger door or drivers door.

Trying to draw it below. This may not come out but will try to draw a picture. The "vvv" is the hidden lane leading up to either the front driver door or passenger door of the sideways parked vehicle.

|---|vvv|---|
|---|vvv|---|
|---|vvv|---|
|---|vvv|---|
-----------------
-----------------

My first thought was that he was blocking her vehicles so she couldn't leave, but your idea makes sense too. It could've been to obstruct the view of one side of the vehicle. Maybe it was both. I hope the reporter will follow up with the neighbor and find out if CF typically parked that way. It seems odd. MOO

 

[1&2&3]

May have missed it, where is PF’s father? Does PF have any brothers or sisters?

As it stands, PF runs the farm for his disabled mother? So he is looked at either “the good Noble son helping his poor handicapped Mother” or “Poor PF, he has no life of his own, still living at home in his thirties, tied down to helping his disabled mom with that farm. He never was into the farm and now it is his responsibility.” *SPECULATION*.

Town people wIll have sentiments similar to one of the above IMO. Of course, we don’t know his past actions as a teenager, twenty year old finding himself, past relationships etc. which will add to the above sentiments.

My feelings are mother did not not want a girl, any girl, moving into her house! She is very close to PF and she wasn’t sharing him or her house! In the same breath, PF couldn’t move in with Kelsey because he needed to help with his Mom’s care. She’s didn’t mind the little girl being there part times, just didn’t want her Home overtaken permanently by another woman and child.

This situation would get old and tear a relationship apart . However, we only have PF’s part of the break up. Kelsey breaking up with him certainly fits in with his story and her disappearance. Too convenient and too much of a coincidence.

My opinions only.

 

[Mspoppie]

Hi All,

I'm new here but I've been following the case closely since I live in the Woodland Park/Florissant area.

Here's a scenario that I can't seem to shake and wanted to see what you all thought. What if PF pick up the baby on Thanksgiving day like it was said, but shortly after he and baby left her house, someone else (maybe someone she recognized as a friend of his) knocked on her door and said they had been in a car accident and offered her a ride to the hospital. That would explain why she would leave with only her purse, her cars were in the driveway, and in her haste to leave, the cinnamon rolls were left out. That person could have then taken her phone to Idaho and sent the text messages. PF wouldn't be worried about LE finding anything on him since his only involvement was coming up with the plan, hence the reason for his behavior. It's the only thing I can come up with where all the pieces fit.

MOO

 

[Kapua]

I don’t think the facts as you stated them are inconsistent with her leaving on her own. But you have to keep in mind the option you didn’t touch on, which is Kelsey leaving on her own but under false pretenses.

Kelsey’s house did not have a garage. And we know that the neighbors tended to be watchful. Nobody incapacitated Kelsey inside her house and then dragged her unconscious or dead body out to their vehicle in broad daylight, I don’t believe.

What makes the most sense to me is that someone invited Kelsey to go with them in their vehicle. Most likely they already had bad intent. She brought along her purse and cell phone out of habit, and because the other party was operating under false pretenses, they couldn’t stop her from doing so. And if I’m right about that, then police should eventually have data, if they don’t have it all ready, showing the phone leaving Kelsey‘s house and pinging of a series of cell towers sometime after the Safeway trip. And if PF is responsible for her disappearance, then he’s got to be concerned. Because there will be the telltale digital fingerprints of his phone and her phone pinging off the same cell towers at the same times. And this would run counter to his story that He picked up the baby and left.

So when you say 'left on her own', you mean that she was alive when she left her house, not that her intention was to go on an adventure to other states. I believe that may very well be true. But what she took with her and what she left behind suggests to me that she didn't plan to be away for long.

 

[susiQ]

Good thought. He would have had to do a few searches on Google, or was caught on camera in a store buying tarps and duct tape (example) - since the warrant is sealed no details are released from the search. Did LE process her townhouse? Her vehicles? CO LE does intentionally keep all details quiet. They probably have been watching PF very closely since 12/2 when CB reports KB missing

True, but sad they only took it seriously from Dec 2. I may be wrong, maybe they got suspicious before CB reported her missing "officially". Was it on Nov. 25th she requested a welfare check on Kelsey? Perhaps he was the one that started the story that they broke up. This would buy him more time as loved ones would consider maybe she was distraught and needed time alone? Or, did he tell them she broke it off and implied she ran off with someone? We don't know what PF said to CB when she first reached him but I'm sure it raised serious questions in the mind of her family. If he did it, he had a number of days to come up with a "story" and get rid of evidence without scrutiny.

 

[PommyMommy]

Hi All,

I'm new here but I've been following the case closely since I live in the Woodland Park/Florissant area.

Here's a scenario that I can't seem to shake and wanted to see what you all thought. What if PF pick up the baby on Thanksgiving day like it was said, but shortly after he and baby left her house, someone else (maybe someone she recognized as a friend of his) knocked on her door and said they had been in a car accident and offered her a ride to the hospital. That would explain why she would leave with only her purse, her cars were in the driveway, and in her haste to leave, the cinnamon rolls were left out. That person could have then taken her phone to Idaho and sent the text messages. PF wouldn't be worried about LE finding anything on him since his only involvement was coming up with the plan, hence the reason for his behavior. It's the only thing I can come up with where all the pieces fit.

MOO

Welcome to Websleuths, Mspoppie!

 

[The Night Watchman]

$25,000 reward for information from an anonymous donor leading to the recovery of Kelsey. I wouldn't typically seek reward money in a missing person case, but the fact that the single donor is anonymous and the trail for Kelsey seems cold...

I might go looking. Where?

I would try to think like my POI.

"I" have long standing knowledge of the area and hills around Woodland Park and Florissant. I have a truck and get it dirty.

I committed a spontaneous crime of passion. I am in the vicinity of Woodland Park. I may make a call to a person I can trust. Or figure out my next steps on my own. Either way, I have evidence I do not want found that I have to deal with quickly.

I have Thanksgiving plans so my time is limited. I start driving back towards Florissant as a natural instinct. Thinking, where do I go that is remote with little traffic? I may pull over and think. Thinking a place without homes and traffic.

I know route 24 to Florissant is out, too open and too much traffic. Same thing with Rte 67 through Divide, between Woodland Park and Florissant. Can't get close to Florissant or too suspicious. There are lots of dirt roads but most roads have homes, and I risk getting stopped or seen by protective homeowners. I can't just drop evidence on the side of a dirt road since there is ranching and outdoor activity. And the smell of decomposition. In my limited knowledge of these things, I think disposing with water over leaving in open air. But not open water.

I know a place that is remote, the North Catamount reservoir. I head out to the lake. Not to the boat ramp areas, but taking a right onto the dead end shore dirt road leading to the head of the reservoir.

There is an extended swamp area right next to the dirt road. Little chance of traffic on this dead end. Means little chance of discovery, at least that's my thought in my panic.

***

So the north side of North Catamount reservoir might be a place to take a dog for a walk or fly a drone, IMO.

I believe the evidence was dropped within a couple of hours of Kelsey disappearing due to Thanksgiving obligations of some sort, and has not been moved. This is not going to be near Florissant, meaning it's more likely to be close to Woodland Park. Not disposed of over the course of days as could be suggested, involving retrieval and replacement. Too unpleasant and brings a new rash of forensic evidence in a vehicle. Driving on dirt roads is slow, so the potential evidence zone is probably smaller than most think, ie thinking the endless wilderness.

Most likely a hasty action instead of a drawn out well-planned process.

Sometimes we overthink things. I'd go looking. I'd take a drive to the reservoir.

For $25,000.

$25,000 reward offered for missing Colorado woman Kelsey Berreth