Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #19

[PommyMommy]

Is it possible that the idea that CW did no clean-up of the crime scene is an assumption and, at least partially, incorrect. Maybe he did clean up to the point, where in his mind, everything looked okay. And then he planned to finish Monday night when there was more time. The smirk at the interview could have been his confidence that he had succeeded, and no one knew!

I think it's important to keep in mind that we don't know if there was any clean-up. For all we know, he could have spent an hour cleaning up glass after they slung dishes at one another. I'm not in any way suggesting that was what happened, but we just don't know what he may have cleaned up. IMO, what is obvious, is that he didn't finish staging the scene or he's among the world's stupidest criminals.

 

[cottonweaver]

Thank you for posting. Also from the article:

There were no tears as he calmly recounted the last time he’d seen his young family and at times he appeared to suppress a smirk — a sign, experts say, of the joy a subject feels when they believe they’re successfully duping someone.

“For Chris to (allegedly) make the leap from adultery to murder (means) he had to be at a point where he could get to such a dark place, mentally, that he could justify very ugly, evil behaviour,” Dr Yeager said.

“People who cheat don’t have a moral compass. If you commit adultery in a relationship, you are a vile person because you’re a liar and a con-artist. You don’t care about the people you hurt, including your own children.”

my bold ^

Wish Yeager would specify these: ..."“There are very clear personality connections between Chris (Watts) and Scott Peterson" because he doesn't appear to do that in the link. He draws similarities between their criminal actions & events in the cover-up.

Indeed DY only once describes a personality attribute ( charisma) and it's one he says they don't share;"Dale Yeager says Mr Watts presents as a less charismatic version of Scott Peterson."

I had a look at the stats for US infidelity- they seem to vary according to the survey. Roughly it seems 1/3 of spouses cheat. Just cause I personally find it abhorrent, I wouldn't dream of going about saying that (my bold) as inevitably I would be insulting a large % of people I meet.

( These stats will be similar in the UK, I expect)
Infidelity Statistics 2017: Why, When, and How People Stray

 

[Deleted member 182072]

I definitely think it was something similar. Macdonald felt compelled to kill them all in order to sell his story of a cult massacre. I think here it began with a rage killing, then for whatever reason, he decided to go the distance. His reasoning, whatever it is, isn’t as logical as Macdonald’s, but both appeared to involve rage.

Personally in the "CW planned it" camp for now but still open to other possibilities. I didn't know much about the MacDonald case and just started reading up on his possible motive. Found a sickening theory written by Colette's brother on the following site that stated Colette caught MacDonald molesting their eldest child and he killed them all to protect himself.
The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site: Colette's brother's note for Christina's book and website

That reminded me of Shanann's words from this article and how she would have done anything to protect her babies:
Frederick man had climbed from deep financial troubles to apparent prosperity

"The world is a scary place. I will do everything in my power to teach her right and to protect her, advocate, stand up for her and defend her! I pray everyday that she never feels any less than the rest of the world. I pray that she's protected when I'm not around to protect her! Nothing or no one will stop me," she wrote.​

 

[Thepoet]

I think it's important to keep in mind that we don't know if there was any clean-up. For all we know, he could have spent an hour cleaning up glass after they slung dishes at one another. I'm not in any way suggesting that was what happened, but we just don't know what he may have cleaned up. IMO, what is obvious, is that he didn't finish staging the scene or he's among the world's stupidest criminals.

I believe he did a lot of planning, reveled in his plans, and then began crumbling when people/events intruded and changed his plans. He is stupid, and sick.

 

[cottonweaver]

Personally in the "CW planned it" camp for now but still open to other possibilities. I didn't know much about the MacDonald case and just started reading up on his possible motive. Found a sickening theory written by Colette's brother on the following site that stated Colette caught MacDonald molesting their eldest child and he killed them all to protect himself.
The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site: Colette's brother's note for Christina's book and website

That reminded me of Shanann's words from this article and how she would have done anything to protect her babies:
Frederick man had climbed from deep financial troubles to apparent prosperity

"The world is a scary place. I will do everything in my power to teach her right and to protect her, advocate, stand up for her and defend her! I pray everyday that she never feels any less than the rest of the world. I pray that she's protected when I'm not around to protect her! Nothing or no one will stop me," she wrote.​

I'm still in the long-planned camp too BUT not as much as I was at the outset. Open to options & more info.

I will try and watch one of those J.MacDonald documentaries, if posters think there really is so much similarity between the two perps.

 

[gitana1]

My mind continues to go through so many “what if” scenarios. The very hardest thing I continue to struggle with is why/how he could have killed his children. There’s been some speculation that SW learned of CW’s infidelity and began to think about or plan for separation while in NC. Could it be possible the girls overheard or picked up on any conversations during those weeks apart? And if so, might one of them have spilled the beans while SW was in AZ? Kids have zero filters. Maybe Bella said something to CW like “Mommy said you’ll have to move in with your boyfriend soon” or, you know, any kind of offhanded (possibly snarky) comment that would indicate that SW had been venting to family and making plans, and had been tarnishing his “reputation” with talk of affairs behind his back. I could see CW being furious at both her and the kids, possibly feeing like they were all against him, and that SW was in the process of “robbing” him of his family/perfect life appearance. Then hastily concocting a plan to disappear them all before she could confront him or set any plans in motion. Just another scenario that has crossed my mind...

I don't know. There have been repeated lists of family annihilators who killed their kids because they wanted to be free. It's simple. No further explanation needed. No they overheard something or walked in on something and also had to be killed. Nothing. Just they wanted to be free from all family obligations.

These cases are stunning and confusing because by all accounts these were happy families from the outside and the murderers seemed to be great family men- good, loving dads.

But we've seen it over and over and over again.

"Seemed" is the key. Many had secret lives and all had hidden, defective characters.

He gets rid of his kids he doesn't have to worry about child support, child care, two girls missing their mommy, kids not getting along with the new mate or fling or whatever. He doesn't have to deal with former in laws who still want to see the kids. Or his own family who may want to be around more because of the existence of the kids.

No bedtimes. No naptimes. No potty training. School drop offs and pick ups. No daycare and pre school costs or babysitters costs. No tantrums. No sick kids in the middle of the night. No missing work (or play) due to sick kids. No shuffling around to dance classes or soccer. Girl Scouts or softball. No sports' fees. No school clothes. No parent teacher conferences. Back to school nights. Open house. No dental care costs. Medical care copays. No school fees. Or college costs.
No photos of dutiful dad carting them around on Halloween or taking them to boring 4th of July family barbecues.

He kills them and he's free. He would've been free. Free from drudgery. Responsibility. Expenses.

 

[Thepoet]

Personally in the "CW planned it" camp for now but still open to other possibilities. I didn't know much about the MacDonald case and just started reading up on his possible motive. Found a sickening theory written by Colette's brother on the following site that stated Colette caught MacDonald molesting their eldest child and he killed them all to protect himself.
The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site: Colette's brother's note for Christina's book and website

That reminded me of Shanann's words from this article and how she would have done anything to protect her babies:
Frederick man had climbed from deep financial troubles to apparent prosperity

"The world is a scary place. I will do everything in my power to teach her right and to protect her, advocate, stand up for her and defend her! I pray everyday that she never feels any less than the rest of the world. I pray that she's protected when I'm not around to protect her! Nothing or no one will stop me," she wrote.​

I strongly believe that SW had no opportunity to protect her children. I believe the first time the neighbors heard a dog in distress, it wasn't a dog, it was SW being shown her dead children. The dog then responded, already being stressed by the events he heard/sensed. While SW was in shock, CW subdued and murdered her. In such a state of shock she would probably barely fight back. The fact that the girls were already dead and the plane was so late, is why he had to proceed immediately with SW's killing and the cover-up. There may have been a brief confrontation when SW arrived home and then CW said; :Let me show you something."

 

[gitana1]

Obviously these killings came out of rage. What would the rage be about? IMO she found out about his affair with a male.

Being tied down to a life he came to resent? Being chained to a wife who he felt overshadowed him?

Or maybe it was just desperation and desire to be free of responsibility and financial problems.

A sociopath, for example, doesn't have to feel rage to systematically strangle and dispose of his family.

He seemed quite in control and cool, calm and collected the very day after he supposedly erupted in a rage so powerful that he massacred his family.

By all accounts he was that way hours after as well. No one has reported seeing him nervous or out of sorts or upset in any way. He calmly called Nickole to ask what was going on and calmly spoke to LE, family and friends that whole day, apparently.

 

[Thepoet]

I don't know. There have been repeated lists of family annihilators who killed their kids because they wanted to be free. It's simple. No further explanation needed. No they overheard something or walked in on something and also had to be killed. Nothing. Just they wanted to be free from all family obligations.

These cases are stunning and confusing because by all accounts these were happy families from the outside and the murderers seemed to be great family men- good, loving dads.

But we've seen it over and over and over again.

"Seemed" is the key. Many had secret lives and all had hidden, defective characters.

He gets rid of his kids he doesn't have to worry about child support, child care, two girls missing their mommy, kids not getting along with the new mate or fling or whatever. He doesn't have to deal with former in laws who still want to see the kids. Or his own family who may want to be around more because of the existence of the kids.

No bedtimes. No naptimes. No potty training. School drop offs and pick ups. No daycare and pre school costs or babysitters costs. No tantrums. No sick kids in the middle of the night. No missing work (or play) due to sick kids. No shuffling around to dance classes or soccer. Girl Scouts or softball. No sports' fees. No school clothes. No parent teacher conferences. Back to school nights. Open house. No dental care costs. Medical care copays. No school fees. Or college costs.
No photos of dutiful dad carting them around on Halloween or taking them to boring 4th of July family barbecues.

He kills them and he's free. He would've been free. Free from drudgery. Responsibility. Expenses.

Well said, kudos!

 

[ray9898]

This crime is way too disorganized to be planned. This was an impulse with a hurried cover up that was halted in midway through.

People keep repeating how 'stupid' he is when in reality I think he was just reacting to the mess he created.

 

[gitana1]

That smirk at the interview said “I can fool you.” He didn’t.

I definitely agree that he planned to finish the cleanup, and if he was smart, would have dumped the car and her belongings (purse, phone, etc), in order to sell the idea that she took the kids and split on her own volition.

The camera across the street was the problem.

 

[MassGuy]

The camera across the street was the problem.

Really good point. I completely forgot about that fact.

 

[gitana1]

This crime is way too disorganized to be planned. This was an impulse with a hurried cover up that was halted in midway through.

People keep repeating how 'stupid' he is when in reality I think he was just reacting to the mess he created.

I think it could've been disorganized because his wife's flight came in very late and his wife's friend alerted authorities long before he had a chance to stage or engage in any other cover ups.

 

[Thepoet]

This crime is way too disorganized to be planned. This was an impulse with a hurried cover up that was halted in midway through.

People keep repeating how 'stupid' he is when in reality I think he was just reacting to the mess he created.

The disorganization doesn't appear to come until AFTER NAU showed up at the house.

 

[PommyMommy]

my bold ^

Wish Yeager would specify these: ..."“There are very clear personality connections between Chris (Watts) and Scott Peterson" because he doesn't appear to do that in the link. He draws similarities between their criminal actions & events in the cover-up.

Indeed DY only once describes a personality attribute ( charisma) and it's one he says they don't share;"Dale Yeager says Mr Watts presents as a less charismatic version of Scott Peterson."

I had a look at the stats for US infidelity- they seem to vary according to the survey. Roughly it seems 1/3 of spouses cheat. Just cause I personally find it abhorrent, I wouldn't dream of going about saying that (my bold) as inevitably I would be insulting a large % of people I meet.

Infidelity Statistics 2017: Why, When, and How People Stray

Yeah, vile is a pretty strong word and I probably would not have used it in this instance. I have no problem using it to describe CW, however.

 

[MassGuy]

Personally in the "CW planned it" camp for now but still open to other possibilities. I didn't know much about the MacDonald case and just started reading up on his possible motive. Found a sickening theory written by Colette's brother on the following site that stated Colette caught MacDonald molesting their eldest child and he killed them all to protect himself.
The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site: Colette's brother's note for Christina's book and website

That reminded me of Shanann's words from this article and how she would have done anything to protect her babies:
Frederick man had climbed from deep financial troubles to apparent prosperity

"The world is a scary place. I will do everything in my power to teach her right and to protect her, advocate, stand up for her and defend her! I pray everyday that she never feels any less than the rest of the world. I pray that she's protected when I'm not around to protect her! Nothing or no one will stop me," she wrote.​

I think this was a bit of a mix. I think he was steaming over something while she was away. I think when she got home, things quickly escalated.

Until there is evidence to the contrary, I’m inclined to think this was initially, a crime of passion. That’s not to say there wasn’t some thought beforehand, but I’m not sure that he had already planned to kill them all, before she walked in that door.

 

[Layla123]

I think it's important to keep in mind that we don't know if there was any clean-up. For all we know, he could have spent an hour cleaning up glass after they slung dishes at one another. I'm not in any way suggesting that was what happened, but we just don't know what he may have cleaned up. IMO, what is obvious, is that he didn't finish staging the scene or he's among the world's stupidest criminals.

And what else is obvious is that a man who claims to have loved his daughters so much he flew into an uncontrollable rage when he saw his wife strangling them, but he had no qualms about dumping their lifeless bodies into a tank of filthy crude oil.

 

[gitana1]

The disorganization doesn't appear to come until AFTER NAU showed up at the house.

I'm open but Im more leaning toward planned in advance. And I think it's a good possibility the girls were dead first.

(Or maybe as others have surmised he did it all quickly, shortly before he had to leave for work).

The moments after he killed them, he might have been feeling some adrenaline.

She came home later than expected which may have caused him to be kind of freaking out if they kids were already dead, and not sticking to his plan as he worried about the possibility of her flight not getting in until the next day, when she would expect to talk to the girls by phone from the airport, or see texts of them being taken to school or whatever. Or he would've had to plan childcare arrangements: "Sorry my flight is delayed! Amanda is coming to pick up the kids at 5 so you can go work." (Now what).

Then, after the murders he was likely pumping with adrenaline for a bit. He has to time this perfectly. He might have forgotten some things like taking the stick out of the slider, and unlocking it, in all the "excitement".

 

[MassGuy]

And what else is obvious is that a man who claims to have loved his daughters so much he flew into an uncontrollable rage when he saw his wife strangling them, but he had no qualms about dumping their lifeless bodies into a tank of filthy crude oil.

True. “I love my kids so much that I would kill for them, then dump their little bodies in tanks of sludge.”

 

[MassGuy]

I'm open but Im more leaning toward planned in advance. And I think it's a good possibility the girls were dead first.

(Or maybe as others have surmised he did it all quickly, shortly before he had to leave for work).

The moments after he killed them, he might have been feeling some adrenaline.

She came home later than expected which may have caused him to be kind of freaking out if they kids were already dead, and not sticking to his plan as he worried about the possibility of her flight not getting in until the next day, when she would expect to talk to the girls by phone from the airport, or see texts of them being taken to school or whatever. Or he would've had to plan childcare arrangements: "Sorry my flight is delayed! Amanda is coming to pick up the kids at 5 so you can go work." (Now what).

Then, after the murders he was likely pumping with adrenaline for a bit. He has to time this perfectly. He might have forgotten some things like taking the stick out of the slider, and unlocking it, in all the "excitement".

I think this is the one case where a sociopath would have an advantage in terms of post offense coverup. He seemed to have been thinking clearly. Clearly for him anyway.