Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW GUILTY* #47

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  • #681
I agree, I don't think upbringing can explain the ability to plan an execute the murders of your own children. This goes way past an overindulged child never taught consequences -- most of us do not need to fear consequences to not WANT to kill our loved ones. Most of us, even extreme narcissists, are able to form attachments and would be unable to kill their children. People mentioned the Susan Powers case but that is quite different, imo - in that case he killed his wife, and only killed his wife (and self) when the walls were closing in on him. Sick, vengeful, spiteful, hideous man, but a different species imo. One thing that continues to boggle me about CW and his ilk -- why do they not consider that there is a good chance they will be caught? It seems to not enter their minds. So in that sense, they cannot understand consequences -- it is so delusional -- but I think that coexists with something else. So the upbringing may create a lethal inability to think through impulses but the desire and ability to wipe out their own children is something else, IMO.
I agree, I think the something else is possibly a grandiose sense of self that clouds the ability to see the reality of what they are doing and that they will get caught.
 
  • #682
CW reminds me very much of Mark Hacking, Mark Hacking | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers

Mark killed Lori, his wife, when she was pregnant, many people believe it was because she was close to leaving him, and confronted him with all of his lies. If SW had confronted CW with his affairs, prior to leaving for Arizona, he knew everything was going to fall apart, very soon, and wanted to control this, he couldn't "let" her leave. That would be a "fail".
 
  • #683
I'm fairly confident there is a lot more stuff that went on in those weeks before this tragedy that we know nothing about.

If it's true that Shan'ann told some people that a separation was on the cards, that had to mean she knew more than that CW was being distant. As a pregnant woman this would have been even more devastating for her. Yet it seems in her mind she had already skipped the stage of being able to reconcile and save the marriage.
 
  • #684
I agree, I don't think upbringing can explain the ability to plan an execute the murders of your own children. This goes way past an overindulged child never taught consequences -- most of us do not need to fear consequences to not WANT to kill our loved ones. Most of us, even extreme narcissists, are able to form attachments and would be unable to kill their children. People mentioned the Susan Powers case but that is quite different, imo - in that case he killed his wife, and only killed his wife (and self) when the walls were closing in on him. Sick, vengeful, spiteful, hideous man, but a different species imo. One thing that continues to boggle me about CW and his ilk -- why do they not consider that there is a good chance they will be caught? It seems to not enter their minds. So in that sense, they cannot understand consequences -- it is so delusional -- but I think that coexists with something else. So the upbringing may create a lethal inability to think through impulses but the desire and ability to wipe out their own children is something else, IMO.

If they think in "compartmentalized" way, in other words, continue living and thinking as if the murder is not going to happen, while planning it, they may not mentally think about the immediate post-murder period. Mentally, they jump into the beautiful life they are going to have when their family is gone.

Scott Peterson comes to mind. How good he was to Amber Frey and her child when planning/executing hideous murder of own wife.

But then, according to the book "Serial killers", there are "organized killers", and they believe Ted Bundy was one of them. One wonders if they would score highly on OCD traits. They plan meticulously.

Maybe CW felt he was meticulous enough? He just missed one thing, that police and SW's friends will never believe him, but that takes some social thinking, not planning.
 
  • #685
Everyone says, NUA. And really, a lot of honor goes to NUA.

But ultimately, it is SW.

Because it was SW's ability to make friends, a lot of friends, everywhere, good friends, devoted friends, being a good friend, that made one of them who saw her last, NUA, care enough to check on her friend and then go through the motions and call the police.

Let us review this aspect of SW. What we see in the media is SW the vendor. I am ironic about all these home sales, so to distance myself from it, I am saying, Gwyneth Paltrow sells a lot, J-Lo sells a lot, lots of other celebrities have brands and lifestyle products, this is how the world goes. (Even Di Caprio sells lab-grown diamonds). So the fact that everyone else starts selling "whatever" using social media should not be surprising.

But the SW we saw on the media was the glamorous SW, trying to sell some thingy. Perhaps in life she was a very different person. It would help if we could have more of her friends and not only from the vendors' world, talk about real SW, better even before the sales. Just to tell what kind of a person she used to be. I am now thinking that because of the girls, she is somehow halfway forgotten in this situation. And she was a lupus survivor, and no one knowing her said a bad word about her.
This is what our VI Isalybra, close friend of Shanann, said about her and her relationship with CW:
CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #10
 
  • #686
I agree, I don't think upbringing can explain the ability to plan an execute the murders of your own children. This goes way past an overindulged child never taught consequences -- most of us do not need to fear consequences to not WANT to kill our loved ones. Most of us, even extreme narcissists, are able to form attachments and would be unable to kill their children. People mentioned the Susan Powers case but that is quite different, imo - in that case he killed his wife, and only killed his wife (and self) when the walls were closing in on him. Sick, vengeful, spiteful, hideous man, but a different species imo. One thing that continues to boggle me about CW and his ilk -- why do they not consider that there is a good chance they will be caught? It seems to not enter their minds. So in that sense, they cannot understand consequences -- it is so delusional -- but I think that coexists with something else. So the upbringing may create a lethal inability to think through impulses but the desire and ability to wipe out their own children is something else, IMO.
That something else IMO is not having attachment. So it's the functioning like a robot, learned - not natural - responses.

When I watch the pregnancy reveal video now I see he didn't know what to say all throughout. I don't think it's being camera shy, I think it's behaving how he thinks he ought to. I hesitate to say this because I don't want it to come off as a criticism of her, but I also think it was a bit weird from Shan'ann's point of view and I have wondered about her motives for making the video. She started off with a smile before he comes in, but then I hear no excitement in her tone of voice throughout the rest of it. I wonder if she wanted to capture his reaction to watch back. We don't know if she suspected anything back then. Just something about it doesn't feel like a cohesive shared joyful moment to me. She was largely mute, leaving silences for him to fill.

JMO.
 
  • #687
I'm a little bit behind with the threads but something that crossed my mind he loves Metallica and I can't stand to think about the lyrics of Enter the Sandman
 
  • #688
This is what our VI Isalybra, close friend of Shanann, said about her and her relationship with CW:
CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #10
Thank you for sharing. Her comments made me think of SP. Laci’s parents defended him for the first month, they said he was a loving, caring husband and would have never hurt Laci, many friends echoed these sentiments. Whether he snapped or it was premeditated, the fact that he had in him to kill his own children is chilling. These perpetrators seem to be masters at projecting the right image.
 
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  • #689
This is what our VI Isalybra, close friend of Shanann, said about her and her relationship with CW:
CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #10
I think that shows how good he was at acting like a normal human being. Not that I don't think he loved her, or at least was content as long as he was the center of her world. I wonder if he considered the AP a step up on the ladder. Or maybe he just enjoyed the attention. Or both. Jmo
 
  • #690
CW reminds me very much of Mark Hacking, Mark Hacking | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers

Mark killed Lori, his wife, when she was pregnant, many people believe it was because she was close to leaving him, and confronted him with all of his lies. If SW had confronted CW with his affairs, prior to leaving for Arizona, he knew everything was going to fall apart, very soon, and wanted to control this, he couldn't "let" her leave. That would be a "fail".

Yes!

Big difference though was his family confronted him in the mental ward, told him to do the right thing and he did.

He was a loser who couldn't compare to the success of his siblings and couldn't face the lies he told in an effort to make himself seem like he was succeeding. So he chose death.

But his family were not enablers. Something was off with that guy but his family didn't seem to be part of it.

He is the one and only case of a family annihilator who survives, and lied initially, but who then quickly took responsibility, confessed and pled guilty because his own family convinced him to tell the truth.

From what I've seen with these families that's incredibly rare.
 
  • #691
I'm fairly confident there is a lot more stuff that went on in those weeks before this tragedy that we know nothing about.

If it's true that Shan'ann told some people that a separation was on the cards, that had to mean she knew more than that CW was being distant. As a pregnant woman this would have been even more devastating for her. Yet it seems in her mind she had already skipped the stage of being able to reconcile and save the marriage.

Oh yeah. Like in the scott Peterson case, Laci's friends said she would have freaked and would never put up with an affair as he claimed and that she would immediately tell everyone about it and leave him.

But there's evidence that she knew of a previous affair and stayed in the relationship and worked it out.

She didn't tell a soul.
 
  • #692
Time for bed. Loving this podcast. Will continue tomorrow. I especially am appreciating the discussion about "contrarians" and the attention seeking that goes with that. IMO It caused a lot of grief on these threads. I don't visit SM or other sites.
I will say, and I hope it doesn't get me in trouble here, I wish that Shannan had been treated like a victim here from the beginning. But part of me understands why the stance that was taken was taken. Gonna keep Shining like Shannon. Makes me feel bettter about myself. jmo

Thanks Johnny. She was beautiful as well. Inside and outside and it shows from her videos. I’m sure when this all dies down, which it will thanks to the plea deal, that her family will treasure the videos Shanann recorded.

She loved Bella and CeCe and it shows.

Maybe women get jealous of other women idk, but there is no doubt in my mind that she was a good mama and loved her babies.
 
  • #693
If they think in "compartmentalized" way, in other words, continue living and thinking as if the murder is not going to happen, while planning it, they may not mentally think about the immediate post-murder period. Mentally, they jump into the beautiful life they are going to have when their family is gone.

Scott Peterson comes to mind. How good he was to Amber Frey and her child when planning/executing hideous murder of own wife.

But then, according to the book "Serial killers", there are "organized killers", and they believe Ted Bundy was one of them. One wonders if they would score highly on OCD traits. They plan meticulously.

Maybe CW felt he was meticulous enough? He just missed one thing, that police and SW's friends will never believe him, but that takes some social thinking, not planning.

"Social thinking". That's about it.

These people have coasted through dealings with others and have convinced them of their normalcy. So I guess they feel they can continue to fool people.

But it's because they lack emotional intelligence that they don't realize no one will buy their ridiculous stories. Or ever stop trying to find answers.
 
  • #694
Thank you for sharing. Her comments made me think of SP. Laci’s parents defended him for the first month, they said he was a loving, caring husband and would have never hurt Laci, many friends echoed these sentiments. Whether he snapped or it was premeditated, the fact that he had in him to kill his own children is chilling. These perpetrators seem to be masters at projecting the right image.
Yes - a perfect comparison. In almost every single FA case, the friends and family say things along the same lines - how loving and caring the guy was. Things like, "They were just the perfect family," or "He was such a nice guy, he'd do anything for anybody." It's terrifying. They're out there. We just don't see them coming. MOO
 
  • #695
I found the apologists phenomenon fascinating and bizarre. On SM there was speculation that maybe Chris was sexually abusing the girls and they went nuts-how can you suggest something so disgusting- he might have murdered them but he would never do anything like that- his moral standards are still held in high regard.
"...his moral standards are still held in high regard." Surely you meant to say something different because I don't know any serial cheater, murderer, who dumped his children into tanks of crude oil whose standards I would hold high or even as average. In fact, I would say they they were morally bankrupt.
 
  • #696
Something that has always stood out for me from her videos was her constant praising of CW. She often mentioned how wonderful he was/what a great dad he was/what a great job he did etc. I don't doubt she meant it but why was it necessary to re-inforce it so much ? Was it to keep him happy, to make him feel better or to keep the peace at home ?

It struck me very early on and my odd feeling about it has never changed. Like she was trying to constantly please him....I don't know how to fully explain it but it seemed like she did so much while he just existed, happy to take the praise, go on the wonderful holidays etc., while Shanann worked so hard to keep house/home/job/kids happy.
 
  • #697
Something that has always stood out for me from her videos was her constant praising of CW. She often mentioned how wonderful he was/what a great dad he was/what a great job he did etc. I don't doubt she meant it but why was it necessary to re-inforce it so much ? Was it to keep him happy, to make him feel better or to keep the peace at home ?

It struck me very early on and my odd feeling about it has never changed. Like she was trying to constantly please him....I don't know how to fully explain it but it seemed like she did so much while he just existed, happy to take the praise, go on the wonderful holidays etc., while Shanann worked so hard to keep house/home/job/kids happy.


I mentioned this before in one of the 47+ threads but I did the same thing. To convince my (ex) husband that I loved him. I praised him all the time. It’s a form of emotional abuse.
 
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  • #698
It may sound silly to some, but in that birthday party picture CW actually looks possessed to me. By what, I don't know, but pure evil is on his face there.

Only because we know what happened afterwards. It is our imagination.

I think the photo where CW holds his hands behind SW's neck looks more ominous to me. But again, only because we know how the story ended.

I looked through photos of serial killers and shooters. Some are pretty average, some, like Dahmer, clearly autistic.

Ted Bundy does have the gleam of high nervous energy in his eyes. The rest of the face is OK. Eyes only. I believe that at times he could get manic, btw. But again, how many people have this gleam? Tons. In other words, in the context of the events, it might look ominous, but in no way is it predictive.

And Dylan Roof looks average as can be, for example.

Re. CW, there are other photos where he has intense nervous energy, one from the jail, and a couple - with SW, but the one at the b-day to me looks like a poorly taken photo.

(We don't know what he was thinking about, btw. We assume, about the killings, but maybe about his barbecue, if he were hungry).
 
  • #699
I mentioned this before in one of the 47+ threads but I did the same thing. To convince my (ex) husband that I loved him. I praised him all the time. To convince him I did love him. It’s a form of emotional abuse.

I did the exact same thing. I thought he was just insecure, so I praised him more than usual. Turns out, he had me fooled!
 
  • #700
"...his moral standards are still held in high regard." Surely you meant to say something different because I don't know any serial cheater, murderer, who dumped his children into tanks of crude oil whose standards I would hold high or even as average. In fact, I would say they they were morally bankrupt.
Not by me, by his defenders.
 
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