CO - Tim Watkins, 61, shot to death, Mount Herman, 14 Sept 2017 #1

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  • #41
Yes it is known for that. Hopefully ballistics will help to find the culprit. Any idea how many murders normally?

2 years ago it became against the rules to shoot in the area. Don't know if it helped or not tho.
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2017/09/25/monument-el-paso-county-hatchet/amp/

Tessier says after numerous complaints over the years, the Forest Service banned shooting in the area two years ago. The sheriff’s office will not comment on whether Watkins’ shooting could have been an accident, or if the man with hatchet may be connected.

I believe I read later on that TW had been shot multiple times and of course we now know (after the date of the above article I posted) that his manner of death is being called a homicide.
 
  • #42
  • #43
  • #44
  • #45
Wondering if KN and DN have explained their whereabouts the day TW was brutally and heartlessly murdered and hidden in the leaves? seems like DN has not been cleared of suspicion in this case because i believe CO LE would come out and dismiss him.

well, they know where he was the day he was arrested..driving around the crime scene and search area.

Then of course there is the "unknown " similarity to a murder case in Indiana..an hours drive from where DN was last known to reside.

it's just a whole lot of stuff, so much so it almost seems impossible. MOO
 
  • #46
"Presenting a false id" - we briefly discussed that on the A & L thread. Could that be presenting a false drivers licence? (Hiding his identity because he knows he hasn't registered as required)
Moo
Or because he knows there are warrants in IN and doesn't know whether they are extradictable in CO. When and how did he come by a fake ID? Was it stolen? Has he used it before successfully? What gave him away? KN? The car license plate/registration?
 
  • #47
No probs. I thought you may not have seen it as it came close to the bottom of the page. I do agree with you - she disappeared the day before DN's arrest so it cannot be known for sure what happened unless she is found.
Maybe that is what the plea deal is about, getting information to find her or her body at worse case. Maybe also IN is taking a waiting approach on DN if that can work out in a helpful manner to ML. I am not a legal expert and don't know if the prosecutor would do that so it's just a thought.
 
  • #48
Or because he knows there are warrants in IN and doesn't know whether they are extradictable in CO. When and how did he come by a fake ID? Was it stolen? Has he used it before successfully? What gave him away? KN? The car license plate/registration?

I've wondered all of this! And who's ID was it?
I'm pretty sure the car was registered to KN. DN didn't have a license in his name afaik, so he probably has used a stolen or fake license time and time again. He most certainly wouldn't want his real name to come up in a different state after he failed to register (RSO) there, and had fled from registering (RSO) in IN. IMO he didn't want to be found. But I'm surprised he didn't steal some license plates from CO with an up to date registration sticker. He risked being pulled over every time he (they) drove that car since the registration was expired. Was he in CO when it expired? Do we know the expiration date?
https://www.in.gov/bmv/2451.htm
 
  • #49
One thing I want to mention is that TW was killed on the same day that the killer of DN's brother was sentenced to 16 years. Could have been some anger there and then he encountered or was cut up by the cyclist or vice versa.
:cow:

Shire- did u mean to say Cut OFF by, not "cut up" ? Pls clarify. Txs!
 
  • #50
something about this case is particularly vicious, knowing that he was shot several times..so not an errant bullet but an intentional shooting of at least several rounds from an unknown distance as they have not released this information.

correct me here if I am wrong.

perhaps he was injured by something that could be a hatchet and then subsequently shot to death...perhaps this was the similarity, or maybe there is no hatchet involved but the victims were shot and hidden in a similar or identical manner.

perhaps there was a marking.

I find it very weird that there is no explanation or continuance of the investigation in to Micha's disappearance. It also annoys me that people think that because she suffered from depression this is somehow the reason no one can find her.

as though it dismisses a possible murder or kidnapping.

a lot of people are depressed..we should never give in to these kinds of assumptions, it's highly unfair.

even if she wrote letters in her life or some unlucky events occurred, these things do not dismiss an investigation.

especially when there is a KNOWN guy up there and all kinds of god knows what going on.

I don't care if she was on her way to buy a gun to kill herself with in the woods.

MOO IMO
 
  • #51
I've wondered all of this! And who's ID was it?
I'm pretty sure the car was registered to KN. DN didn't have a license in his name afaik, so he probably has used a stolen or fake license time and time again. He most certainly wouldn't want his real name to come up in a different state after he failed to register (RSO) there, and had fled from registering (RSO) in IN. IMO he didn't want to be found. But I'm surprised he didn't steal some license plates from CO with an up to date registration sticker. He risked being pulled over every time he (they) drove that car since the registration was expired. Was he in CO when it expired? Do we know the expiration date?
https://www.in.gov/bmv/2451.htm
Maybe it is possible that he still had the actual drivers license card even though it was suspended or revoked. If you presented a driver's license like it was good and it was found to be revoked would that constitute presenting a fake ID?
 
  • #52
something about this case is particularly vicious, knowing that he was shot several times..so not an errant bullet but an intentional shooting of at least several rounds from an unknown distance as they have not released this information.

correct me here if I am wrong.

perhaps he was injured by something that could be a hatchet and then subsequently shot to death...perhaps this was the similarity, or maybe there is no hatchet involved but the victims were shot and hidden in a similar or identical manner.

perhaps there was a marking.

I find it very weird that there is no explanation or continuance of the investigation in to Michah's disappearance. It also annoys me that people think that because Micah suffered from depression this is somehow the reason no one can find her.

as though it dismisses a possible murder or kidnapping.

a lot of people are depressed..we should never give in to these kinds of assumptions, it's highly unfair.

even if she wrote letters in her life or some unlucky events occurred, these things do not dismiss an investigation.

especially when there is a KNOWN guy up there and all kinds of god knows what going on.

I don't care if she was on her way to buy a gun to kill herself with in the woods.

MOO IMO

I think there was no evidence she herself was there, only her vehicle, so after a 4 day search they don't know where to look. But I agree with you. We can't stop looking and stop suspecting foul play just because she was depressed, unless there is further evidence she harmed herself. IMO her car being found without her in it and her nowhere to be found is very suspect. She sure as heck didn't harm herself and then drive her car there! kwim?
 
  • #53
Apologies in advance, I didn't realize I had typed so much.
RE: location of TW's bike, shoes and his body. There are two areas that were mentioned, Mt Herman Rd and Red Rocks, and the Limbaugh trail. If you go to the link below there is a small press conference (2nd video, scroll down) with Jacqueline Kirby, Media Relations Mgr for El Paso County Sheriff's Office. I've transcribed beginning from about 3:05 mark:

Reporter: When you're talking about the trail, we know there were some items that were found in two different places. Is there a specific time on, er, a specific place on that weekend, near Mount Herman or the Limbaugh Trail that you guys are wanting people to kind of refresh their memories of exactly (inaudible then J Kirby responds)
JK: You know any, any piece of that area, um whether it's down at Mt Herman Road and Red Rocks or up by the Limbaugh Trail, there's multiple trail heads up there, so any, anywhere in that vicinity we would be interested in.
http://www.kktv.com/content/news/Death-investigation-on-Mount-Herman-Road-445133403.html

Next I'm going to a different article that says:
"Making the story even stranger, the shoe was found directly on Mount Herman Road, but the bike was found a little ways off the trail, Hayden said. There's been no other sign of Watkins for four days...“It’s going to be an extensive process due to the terrain that they have to travel in order to get to where the body is, process the scene and get back out. Because where they are there is also no cell or radio service, which only adds to the time that it will take to process the scene.”
http://www.kktv.com/content/news/Se...in-biker-missing-since-Sept-14-445114943.html

This link describes the Limbaugh Trail and has a map and Virtual Tour. (The tour is interesting and short.) : https://www.trailrunproject.com/trail/7006923
Description of trail: "This is a challenging singletrack trail behind Mount Herman through Limbaugh Valley. The trail starts off Mount Herman Rd. From the start point, the trail immediately heads up several steep, gravely climbs of >10%. The trail then continues to climb up to a ridge before dropping into Limbaugh Valley after a series of narrow switchbacks and traverses.

Due to mention of Mt Herman Rd and Red Rocks Dr in the press conference, it would appear parts of this crime occurred there, at what is technically the end point of Limbaugh trail. (Red icon on map at trail run project link.) The green icon indicates the start point & parking area which is further southwest on Mt Herman Rd. If you do the quick virtual tour it's pretty rugged looking, although the end of the trail appears less steep than the beginning point.

Just tossing out random thoughts, if the killer knew TW, the killer could've known his routine and targeted him on a trail. But reading comments about TW, this man was a beloved member of the community, highly regarded by peers, viewed as kind and caring. Of all the descriptive words used for him, none portray the type of person who has enemies. Which makes it seem it's the crime of a stranger rather than someone who knew him, IMHO.

Then the multiple scenes, what was going on? If TW was killed on Mt Herman Rd it would seem to be an effort for the killer to move a body very far off the road. Maybe two people could do it but it's very difficult to envision one person doing that. Or, another scenario: was TW shot on the actual trail, and the killer took his bike and headed back to Mt Herman Rd? That doesn't seem plausible. Thinking through it in that reverse order: TW killed on trail, killer takes bike, takes a shoe, rides trail to Mt Herman Rd, ditches the bike before getting to the road, continues with the shoe, then drops the shoe in the road. That doesn't make sense. The only scenario I can come up with that takes the least amount of effort for the killer is that there was an encounter on Mt Herman Rd, causing TW lose a shoe. I'm thinking he was likely injured at this point, or at minimum felt threatened. So he rode his bike away from the encounter but something occurred that caused the bike to be left at a location off the road. Either he was injured & unable to ride, or the bike was damaged e.g. a flat, or the killer yanked it from under him. That bike would've been his quickest way out, so TW would want that advantage but something happened to remove that option from him. Did he intentionally head off trail on foot, where he felt he had the advantage due to knowing the terrain so well? Or was he forced at gunpoint? Or maybe heading off trail was his only recourse, because he was being shot at and staying on the road or trail left him too exposed, too easy a target? And why would a killer leave a shoe and a bike easily found, but go to the trouble of covering the body with leaves and twigs? If someone's going to conceal a body it's rather odd they don't conceal the victim's personal belongings as well. It's all very sad to think about. It's clearly a loss for the community and must be terrifying too. :(
 
  • #54
Maybe it is possible that he still had the actual drivers license card even though it was suspended or revoked. If you presented a driver's license like it was good and it was found to be revoked would that constitute presenting a fake ID?

I don't think that would be considered fake as it would have his real name on it. I think LE would say it was suspended or revoked. He showed them a false ID.
 
  • #55
You have to be a maniac with one foot off the ledge to be running around swinging a hatchet at hikers..I mean think about it...

something though doesn't add up ..I wonder if there was more than one gun perhaps another hatchet. He would be an idiot to hang on to a murder weapon. Someone did these crimes, and somehow some way they made mistakes but did enough of the right things to get away scotch free.

also it's super random...no mention of robbery. .. but shot again and again until dead or dying. and then an attempt to hide the evil doing, dragged off and covered up ...so again a concealment which to me is an admission of wrong.

this is an angry murder..

with a sniper type thing it would be cold like a target practice, clean with no effort to conceal..but with this case, and thinking TW may have been marched off into the woods and perhaps made to beg for his life , possibly for the enjoyment of the killer, since it appears there was no discernible motive...

not a robbery

done to relive pressure? done to avenge? done because of some psychotic reasoning, paranoia or just straight up
good old fashioned sadism.

some people just love to kill...they want to kill and they enjoy it.

MOO
 
  • #56
Apologies in advance, I didn't realize I had typed so much.
RE: location of TW's bike, shoes and his body. There are two areas that were mentioned, Mt Herman Rd and Red Rocks, and the Limbaugh trail. If you go to the link below there is a small press conference (2nd video, scroll down) with Jacqueline Kirby, Media Relations Mgr for El Paso County Sheriff's Office. I've transcribed beginning from about 3:05 mark:

Reporter: When you're talking about the trail, we know there were some items that were found in two different places. Is there a specific time on, er, a specific place on that weekend, near Mount Herman or the Limbaugh Trail that you guys are wanting people to kind of refresh their memories of exactly (inaudible then J Kirby responds)
JK: You know any, any piece of that area, um whether it's down at Mt Herman Road and Red Rocks or up by the Limbaugh Trail, there's multiple trail heads up there, so any, anywhere in that vicinity we would be interested in.
http://www.kktv.com/content/news/Death-investigation-on-Mount-Herman-Road-445133403.html

Next I'm going to a different article that says:
"Making the story even stranger, the shoe was found directly on Mount Herman Road, but the bike was found a little ways off the trail, Hayden said. There's been no other sign of Watkins for four days...“It’s going to be an extensive process due to the terrain that they have to travel in order to get to where the body is, process the scene and get back out. Because where they are there is also no cell or radio service, which only adds to the time that it will take to process the scene.”
http://www.kktv.com/content/news/Se...in-biker-missing-since-Sept-14-445114943.html

This link describes the Limbaugh Trail and has a map and Virtual Tour. (The tour is interesting and short.) : https://www.trailrunproject.com/trail/7006923
Description of trail: "This is a challenging singletrack trail behind Mount Herman through Limbaugh Valley. The trail starts off Mount Herman Rd. From the start point, the trail immediately heads up several steep, gravely climbs of >10%. The trail then continues to climb up to a ridge before dropping into Limbaugh Valley after a series of narrow switchbacks and traverses.

Due to mention of Mt Herman Rd and Red Rocks Dr in the press conference, it would appear parts of this crime occurred there, at what is technically the end point of Limbaugh trail. (Red icon on map at trail run project link.) The green icon indicates the start point & parking area which is further southwest on Mt Herman Rd. If you do the quick virtual tour it's pretty rugged looking, although the end of the trail appears less steep than the beginning point.

Just tossing out random thoughts, if the killer knew TW, the killer could've known his routine and targeted him on a trail. But reading comments about TW, this man was a beloved member of the community, highly regarded by peers, viewed as kind and caring. Of all the descriptive words used for him, none portray the type of person who has enemies. Which makes it seem it's the crime of a stranger rather than someone who knew him, IMHO.

Then the multiple scenes, what was going on? If TW was killed on Mt Herman Rd it would seem to be an effort for the killer to move a body very far off the road. Maybe two people could do it but it's very difficult to envision one person doing that. Or, another scenario: was TW shot on the actual trail, and the killer took his bike and headed back to Mt Herman Rd? That doesn't seem plausible. Thinking through it in that reverse order: TW killed on trail, killer takes bike, takes a shoe, rides trail to Mt Herman Rd, ditches the bike before getting to the road, continues with the shoe, then drops the shoe in the road. That doesn't make sense. The only scenario I can come up with that takes the least amount of effort for the killer is that there was an encounter on Mt Herman Rd, causing TW lose a shoe. I'm thinking he was likely injured at this point, or at minimum felt threatened. So he rode his bike away from the encounter but something occurred that caused the bike to be left at a location off the road. Either he was injured & unable to ride, or the bike was damaged e.g. a flat, or the killer yanked it from under him. That bike would've been his quickest way out, so TW would want that advantage but something happened to remove that option from him. Did he intentionally head off trail on foot, where he felt he had the advantage due to knowing the terrain so well? Or was he forced at gunpoint? Or maybe heading off trail was his only recourse, because he was being shot at and staying on the road or trail left him too exposed, too easy a target? And why would a killer leave a shoe and a bike easily found, but go to the trouble of covering the body with leaves and twigs? If someone's going to conceal a body it's rather odd they don't conceal the victim's personal belongings as well. It's all very sad to think about. It's clearly a loss for the community and must be terrifying too. :(

Great post! I think he was probably injured while riding, fell, a shoe came off, he got back on his bike and continued to be chased. At a point he was injured enough he could no longer ride, giving the attacker full control over his victim. (a gun) He left the bike there and proceeded to his buriel place where he was finished off by his attacker. That's how it plays out in my head. :tears:
 
  • #57
What you're saying is true, but I'm sure that her death is being investigated. My only point was that given the totality of what I've found, I don't **believe in my **opinion that her death is related. Given the un-likelihood, I find it easier and more sensible to proceed with talking as if they are not related, rather than are.

There's nothing unfair about that. She **probably** disappeared on her own account, not DN's. Of course, we all have our own opinions.


something about this case is particularly vicious, knowing that he was shot several times..so not an errant bullet but an intentional shooting of at least several rounds from an unknown distance as they have not released this information.

correct me here if I am wrong.

perhaps he was injured by something that could be a hatchet and then subsequently shot to death...perhaps this was the similarity, or maybe there is no hatchet involved but the victims were shot and hidden in a similar or identical manner.

perhaps there was a marking.

I find it very weird that there is no explanation or continuance of the investigation in to Micha's disappearance. It also annoys me that people think that because she suffered from depression this is somehow the reason no one can find her.

as though it dismisses a possible murder or kidnapping.

a lot of people are depressed..we should never give in to these kinds of assumptions, it's highly unfair.

even if she wrote letters in her life or some unlucky events occurred, these things do not dismiss an investigation.

especially when there is a KNOWN guy up there and all kinds of god knows what going on.

I don't care if she was on her way to buy a gun to kill herself with in the woods.

MOO IMO
 
  • #58
  • #59
Apologies in advance, I didn't realize I had typed so much.
RE: location of TW's bike, shoes and his body. And must be terrifying too. :(
Post shortened by me for brevity.

A lot of bikers use shoes that attach to the pedals so in certain circumstances they come off your feet easily. Maybe TW was threatened or shot at and wanted to jump off the bike so as to get to cover but when he tried to unlock the shoe it came off both the pedal and his foot so he stayed on the bike a little farther so he wouldn't have to run partly barefoot. No mention of whether the other shoe was found on TW's body or on his bike. Maybe the killer took his bike farther off the road but didn't notice the shoe. Where did the shooting occur?
 
  • #60
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