CO - Tim Watkins, 61, shot to death, Mount Herman, 14 Sept 2017 #1

[Deleted member 189081]

Well it is incredible what you learn whilst surfing the web. I am sure those in the know with local knowledge will put me right if I am wrong. I have all this time been thinking that Mt Hermon Road was a tarmac proper main road. I am surprised to see it is a well-kept gravel track big enough for 4X4 that winds around the mountain. For me, it sort of puts a whole different perspective on the landscape. I suspect! but I am still learning that the bike trails lead off the main Mt Hermon Road! at various locations. What an eye-opener.

I would like to take time to wish all fellow WS's around the world a Happy New Year and may the quest for truth in all cases continue.

KR
Reacher

 

[kizzykat]

Since you were an acquaintance of TW, can you comment on how you think he might have reacted to someone who asked him for money? it was said there was a guy on the trail in Delphi who panhandled and when he was refused he got belligerent. Is panhandling common with all the homeless people in the nearby camps? I suppose it is unlikely a sexual predator would expose himself to another male so I wont ask about that. Is the trail so quiet during the day that a person can be assaulted and killed and carried down the hill that no one would come along? Would you imagine he may have had to hide for a time until people passed by? Were any folks around during the Crime scene investigation so that it is known how long they spent gathering evidence? Do we know if he was killed at the sight his body was found?

BBM.

I will leave it for emptybottles to answer that, but wanted to mention I've watched some youtube videos of Limbaugh trail, mountain bikers wearing gopro or similar cameras. Worth watching a few IMHO (they're not dull, that's for sure). It looks very narrow, treacherous in many spots, and for the most part isolated. But a couple of the videos the rider is humming along and rounds a bend or drops down a slope and suddenly there's a hiker or two on the trail and it's the hiker(s) that step/jump off trail to allow bikes to pass & avoid a possible collision. (It's amazing the speeds they attain on those bikes.) One rider's video I watched is nearly 9 minutes long, one hiker encountered, then at the end they enter a small parking area and it appears full (I counted about 10 vehicles). But it seems a big area the trail covers, so that might be a low ratio of people for it? Don't know what day of the week the videos were made, since publish date can be after the day the video was made. Since TW went missing on a Thursday that would seem to reduce the number of people out (teens in school, adults with day jobs). Videos are easy enough to find if you search youtube for "Mount Herman Limbaugh Trail".
Just my .02.

 

[Deleted member 189081]

We all ride up roads and then descend on the trail. It's more fun that way, and safer.

I'm not sure because I don't know the exact details, but I believe the body was found maybe a 1/4 mile from the road, but the trail from the road to where his body was found is fairly steep, too steep to carry a body up. I believe the robbery was staged. Maybe someone will show up and tell us exactly where TW was found.

Hiya Emptybottles.

I am so sorry for the loss of your friend/colleague. Please, could you advise if MT Herman Road is a gravel road or a normal highway with tarmac? I think but do not know for sure I have already answered my own question. Your clarification would be much appreciated. I am not a mountain biker and just learning about you're sport. Forgive the rudimentary daft, questions being asked from the UK.

Many Thanks
Reacher

 

[kizzykat]

Just wanted to add a thought after watching another mtn bike video where the rider nearly wiped out a couple times crossing over large rocks embedded in the trail. It's said TW was a very experienced rider. But even experienced riders can have mishaps. I wonder if something happened on the trail, possibly a flat, but I'm thinking a wipeout that perhaps injured him in a way that he couldn't finish the trip riding (couldn't use handbrakes, or pedal), or possibly couldn't walk. Maybe a wrist or ankle injury? Killer is in the area, views TW as easy prey? Kills him, takes the bike, heads back toward the road, ditches bike, leaves a shoe in the road. (I'm still very hung up on that shoe being in the road and how it got there, can't make much sense of that.)

 

[Deleted member 189081]

Just wanted to add a thought after watching another mtn bike video where the rider nearly wiped out a couple times crossing over large rocks embedded in the trail. It's said TW was a very experienced rider. But even experienced riders can have mishaps. I wonder if something happened on the trail, possibly a flat, but I'm thinking a wipeout that perhaps injured him in a way that he couldn't finish the trip riding (couldn't use handbrakes, or pedal), or possibly couldn't walk. Maybe a wrist or ankle injury? Killer is in the area, views TW as easy prey? Kills him, takes the bike, heads back toward the road, ditches bike, leaves a shoe in the road. (I'm still very hung up on that shoe being in the road and how it got there, can't make much sense of that.)

Personally Kizzy I think his shoe on the road (Track in UK) is simply by TW thinking oh S*** I am in trouble, tossed his bike to one side or getting off it as quickly as possible and running/ going in the direction of where he thought he may be safe. With or without both shoes. The adrenalin kicked in the man ran. The perpetrator caught up with him, Whoever that may be and did what they did.

The perpetrator escaped, either by,

Foot
Automobile
Motor Bike
Bicycle
Or Grew wings and flew.

KR
Reacher

 

[Ember123]

So what day this week is the next CO court hearing and what exactly will it be in reference to? I've become lost in all the various charges. Teller or El Paso?

I realize LE (in these cases and in general) are becoming increasingly tight-lipped with social media being what it is but ... in being so hush-hush might not LE be missing out on tips from random folks who may have witnessed something seemingly mundane which (minus the LE news) they will never realize could be of great importance?

 

[Shiressleuth]

Hiya Emptybottles.

I am so sorry for the loss of your friend/colleague. Please, could you advise if MT Herman Road is a gravel road or a normal highway with tarmac? I think but do not know for sure I have already answered my own question. Your clarification would be much appreciated. I am not a mountain biker and just learning about you're sport. Forgive the rudimentary daft, questions being asked from the UK.

Many Thanks
Reacher

There is a picture of Mt Herman rd in the Gear Junkie link I believe ( or one of the links in that article?) Its not a tarmac road but gravel by the look of the pic.

 

[Ember123]

Personally Kizzy I think his shoe on the road (Track in UK) is simply by TW thinking oh S*** I am in trouble, tossed his bike to one side or getting off it as quickly as possible and running/ going in the direction of where he thought he may be safe. With or without both shoes. The adrenalin kicked in the man ran. The perpetrator caught up with him, Whoever that may be and did what they did.

The perpetrator escaped, either by,

Foot
Automobile
Motor Bike
Bicycle
Or Grew wings and flew.

KR
Reacher

Hi Reacher- I too am thinking TW yanked his feet from the pedals hastily perhaps losing a shoe in the rush and may even have had his tire whacked flat by a sharp implement (who knows?!) so had to ditch the bike entirely, and fast!

Wish we had a decent map with locations of Shoe, Bike, and TW. Surely it would help in trying to make sense of the possible chain of events..How could the divulging of THAT info hurt the investigation? Perhaps it would even bring about a witness or two if locations were better understood? (Someone who saw the attacker doing something in one of the locales and, looking back, realizes it may have been the perp?)

 

[kkdj]

Just wanted to add a thought after watching another mtn bike video where the rider nearly wiped out a couple times crossing over large rocks embedded in the trail. It's said TW was a very experienced rider. But even experienced riders can have mishaps. I wonder if something happened on the trail, possibly a flat, but I'm thinking a wipeout that perhaps injured him in a way that he couldn't finish the trip riding (couldn't use handbrakes, or pedal), or possibly couldn't walk. Maybe a wrist or ankle injury? Killer is in the area, views TW as easy prey? Kills him, takes the bike, heads back toward the road, ditches bike, leaves a shoe in the road. (I'm still very hung up on that shoe being in the road and how it got there, can't make much sense of that.)

TW's shoe. Wasn't a shoe found away from one of the girls in Delphi? Maybe a misplaced shoe is a path (a tell) for the murderer to find his/her way back to the body. Maybe there's other landmarks the killer created too.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Haven't looked at the vids yet that Kizzy mentions but a collision or near miss with someone on the trail on foot certainly could be the reason for an altercation ending in his death. That is the only motive that makes sense to me ATM.

I am so glad we are looking at this murder now and we should have done that two months ago. Everything is making more sense to me.

Moo cow.
Google is great

 

[Shiressleuth]

Personally Kizzy I think his shoe on the road (Track in UK) is simply by TW thinking oh S*** I am in trouble, tossed his bike to one side or getting off it as quickly as possible and running/ going in the direction of where he thought he may be safe. With or without both shoes. The adrenalin kicked in the man ran. The perpetrator caught up with him, Whoever that may be and did what they did.

The perpetrator escaped, either by,

Foot
Automobile
Motor Bike
Bicycle
Or Grew wings and flew.

KR
Reacher

Or wife picked him up?

:cow:

:wink:

 

[kkdj]

Or wife picked him up?

:cow:

:wink:

If you look at my other post re marking his way, perhaps a wife would recognize these "tells" to find him. i remember being a kid going for walks in the mountains and placing items on my path to find my way back.

 

[ocgrad]

Hi Reacher- I too am thinking TW yanked his feet from the pedals hastily perhaps losing a shoe in the rush and may even have had his tire whacked flat by a sharp implement (who knows?!) so had to ditch the bike entirely, and fast!

Wish we had a decent map with locations of Shoe, Bike, and TW. Surely it would help in trying to make sense of the possible chain of events..How could the divulging of THAT info hurt the investigation? Perhaps it would even bring about a witness or two if locations were better understood? (Someone who saw the attacker doing something in one of the locales and, looking back, realizes it may have been the perp?)

A comment by one of the searchers said his bike had a flat. But it was not mentioned in news reports, just on the forum as they were searching for him so not official but a good possibility.
I can see that if he had been fired at, his bike hit, he may have felt he could get down and get to cover better on the trail which he knew well than out in the open on the road.

 

[ocgrad]

Am suddenly having display problems again with WS mobile site and cannot access the Full site at all. Anyone else having problems?

I prefer the desktop site even though I read on my phone. I think it makes for fewer overall pages and easier to manage. Also I use an Ad Blocker Browser and never have trouble.

 

[Daey34]

Reacher, it's both. As a matter of fact, at the intersection where his shoe was found, Mt Herman and Sunburst, it is residential with a fully paved two lane road. It's not uncommon to see Horse back riding on that road. Past sunburst, at exactly that intersection, the paved road turns to dirt and becomes rougher.

Well it is incredible what you learn whilst surfing the web. I am sure those in the know with local knowledge will put me right if I am wrong. I have all this time been thinking that Mt Hermon Road was a tarmac proper main road. I am surprised to see it is a well-kept gravel track big enough for 4X4 that winds around the mountain. For me, it sort of puts a whole different perspective on the landscape. I suspect! but I am still learning that the bike trails lead off the main Mt Hermon Road! at various locations. What an eye-opener.

I would like to take time to wish all fellow WS's around the world a Happy New Year and may the quest for truth in all cases continue.

KR
Reacher

 

[Shiressleuth]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xsDKQqCBBA4

This is a link to one of the videos that Kizzy was talking about.

Found it very interesting.

 

[emptybottles]

My understanding is that TW was found near here. Near the top of Limbaugh.
https://goo.gl/maps/ANcegfAzjgp

I'm not sure exactly where the shoe(s) were found or bike. Some people have said near Red Rocks, others have said at the trailhead.

I believe it was sloppy reporting and the bike was found not far from the body but maybe down the trail a ways towards the tralhead. Then the shoe and personal items possibly scattered up Mt Herman Rd going west. That would be consistent with someone trying to stage a robbery and would also explain the mis-reported locations of 3.3 - 3.5 miles up Mt Herman Rd/Red Rocks intersection.

 

[emptybottles]

If you look at my other post re marking his way, perhaps a wife would recognize these "tells" to find him. i remember being a kid going for walks in the mountains and placing items on my path to find my way back.

His shoes would have been the last thing he would have gotten rid of in that case. Helmet, camelback, gloves, jersey, those would have been first. Plus it's a steep uphill going up Mt Herman. Maybe 6 mph at most, or slower. Some riders log their rides on Strava and there was at least one other rider who passed through that area around the same time.

 

[emptybottles]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xsDKQqCBBA4

This is a link to one of the videos that Kizzy was talking about.

Found it very interesting.

The beginning of the video would be near the top of Limbaugh.

This video is blurry as heck but starts at the trailhead.
https://youtu.be/wRTiPuCYDrk

 

[emptybottles]

Hiya Emptybottles.

I am so sorry for the loss of your friend/colleague. Please, could you advise if MT Herman Road is a gravel road or a normal highway with tarmac? I think but do not know for sure I have already answered my own question. Your clarification would be much appreciated. I am not a mountain biker and just learning about you're sport. Forgive the rudimentary daft, questions being asked from the UK.

Many Thanks
Reacher

It's a well maintained gravel 2 lane road taken care of by the forest service. Pretty wide for a gravel road actually. I have trouble understanding how DN and his wife would have trouble driving it and got run off the road. They must have been high when that happened?

The road goes west and connect to Rampart Range Rd, which is the road leading to Woodland Park one direction and Denver the other. This is where DN said they were camping.