Common Ground

[Mrs G Norris]

Michael Moore autopsy http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/autmm.html
OPINION:
This 8 year old white male, James Michael Moore, died of multiple injuries with drowning.

Stevie Branch autopsy http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/autsb.html
OPINION:
This 8 year old, white male, Steve Branch, died of multiple injuries with drowning.

Christopher Byers autopsy http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/autcb.html
OPINION:
This 8 year old, white male, Christopher Byers, dies of multiple injuries.

Are we all agreed with the results of the autopsy reports?

 

[Compassionate Reader]

But then turned around and questioned Ofshe's credentials.

And Holmes', too, and he's the one who taught Bill Durham all about polygraphs.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Michael Moore autopsy http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/autmm.html
OPINION:
This 8 year old white male, James Michael Moore, died of multiple injuries with drowning.

Stevie Branch autopsy http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/autsb.html
OPINION:
This 8 year old, white male, Steve Branch, died of multiple injuries with drowning.

Christopher Byers autopsy http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/autcb.html
OPINION:
This 8 year old, white male, Christopher Byers, dies of multiple injuries.

Are we all agreed with the results of the autopsy reports?

I agree that that's what Peretti said. However, I don't totally trust Peretti's assessment of the situation. It's possible that Christopher was dead when placed in the water, but, IMO, that doesn't prove much more than that. However, basically, I agree that the boys were not dead, merely unconscious, when placed in the water. They died of drowning.

 

[EntreNous]

What offers did they from other agencies did they not avail themselves of specifically?


I'm started my disagreements as requested:


I can't stop people from contesting my disagreement, and I'm going to ask for details on such arguments when they are lacking.

i think she meant... say, "I disagree." then if you feel strongly enough and there is not already a thread about it, feel free to start one and from there it can be discussed/debated. we are trying to keep the debating part off this board. please respect that. thanks in advance.

 

[EntreNous]

Long time lurker on this thread, first time posting about WM3. I happened to come across PL3 on HBO last week and it really got me to thinking. I think(hope) we can all agree that the (expert) who got his credentials through mail order is a little absurd and they let him testify.

good one, landonsmom. welcome! :welcome6:

 

[EntreNous]

I couldn't believe it! At first a few years ago I thought they were guilty. Now I have changed my mind. They most certainly had tunnel vision and somebody(anybody) was going to pay for this crime, IMO, that's has WMPD felt. I really felt bad for JB during the interview on PL3. You could tell he had been through so much and is truely innocent, IMO


Also, are we on common ground that the boys were killed in the woods? I feel like they were.

i'm still up in the air about murder location.

 

[reedus23]

i'm still up in the air about murder location.

EntreNous, I think we can put your post concerning the content of DE's letter over here too. I didn't hear any disagreement that the various references in his letters were actually song lyrics and quotes from books, etc.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

EntreNous, I think we can put your post concerning the content of DE's letter over here too. I didn't hear any disagreement that the various references in his letters were actually song lyrics and quotes from books, etc.

But the common ground mentioned in this thread was not about the letters, but about his previous mental problems and Exhibit 500.

 

[reedus23]

But the common ground mentioned in this thread was not about the letters, but about his previous mental problems and Exhibit 500.

My apologies, but I thought we were just looking for any areas where both sides of the debate can agree. I was simply throwing out there, can both sides agree that the words cited by EntreNous from DE's letters/notes came from the songs or books cited by EntreNous. Not the significance or meaning held by the fact that DE chose to write those words, just the fact that their original sources for those limited words were the songs/books cited.

ETA - I don't think there was any common ground concerning the extent or nature of DE's mental problems. I could be wrong.

 

[Landonsmom02]

good one, landonsmom. welcome! :welcome6:

Thanks!!!!!

 

[reedus23]

Can we all agree that in the trial against Jessie, the first three witnesses, Dana Moore, Pam Hobbs and Melissa Byers acquainted the jury with the victims and their background leading up to that day? Can we also agree that none of their testimony tended to point to any one or more persons as the perpetrator(s) of the murders as opposed to anyone else?

 

[reedus23]

In the trial against Jesse, can we agree that Debra O'Tinger's testimony primarily established that she saw the boys around 6:00? Can we also agree that her testimony did not tend to point to any one or more person(s) as having committed the murders anymore than anyone else?

 

[reedus23]

In the trial against Jessie, can we all agree that Regina Meeks testimony centered on her being the first to respond to the report of the missing children? Among other things, I think she said she arrived at the Byers' around 8, that Moore had shown up as well, and that she had searched until some time around 11 that evening when she went off of shift. Can we also agree that her testimony does not tend to establish that any one or more person(s) committed the crime as opposed to anyone else?

 

[reedus23]

In the trial against Jessie, can we agree that John Moore's testimony centered on him responding to the call at Catfish Island at 9:30 or some time shortly before? Can we also agree that his testimony does not tend to establish that the murders were committed by any one or more person(s) as opposed to others?

 

[reedus23]

In the trial against Jessie, can we agree that Ryan Clark's testimony centered on his searching for his brother the night he went missing? Can we also agree that his testimony did not tend to establish that the murders were committed by any one or more particular person(s) any more than anyone else?

 

[Landonsmom02]

Griffis' mail order degrees weren't the credentials that got him on the stand, but rather his experience as a police officer and consultant on the investigation of occult related crimes. That said, his testimony was underwhelming to say the least. The prosecution would've been negligent to ignore issue of motive though, and they apparently were unable to find a better witness to qualify as an expert in regard to Echols' interest in the occult than Griffis.


No, they questioned Ofshe's claims and practices.

BBM

Thanks for the reply. I was just stating that while he was on the stand and naming his credentials, he was asked how he obtained that degree and he said through mail order. IMO, I still don't know how he can be considered an "expert" in that field with a mail order degree. You can do all the field work you want, but I thought in order to get a college degree, you had to attend and an actual college and graduate. You can't become an RN or MD with a mail order degree, if so, I sure wouldn't want them working on me. Sorry I just can't wrap my brain around that part of the trial?

 

[reedus23]

BBM

Thanks for the reply. I was just stating that while he was on the stand and naming his credentials, he was asked how he obtained that degree and he said through mail order. IMO, I still don't know how he can be considered an "expert" in that field with a mail order degree. You can do all the field work you want, but I thought in order to get a college degree, you had to attend and an actual college and graduate. You can't become an RN or MD with a mail order degree, if so, I sure wouldn't want them working on me. Sorry I just can't wrap my brain around that part of the trial?

Witnesses can be qualified as an expert based on their training and experience, not just their education. In this instance, I assume that he was qualified not on his education but rather on his training and experience (which I also question given his experience was with the Tiffin, OH PD, a town of 15,000 people and I question how much cult/occult/satanic related crimes were committed in that tiny town to give him the requisite training/experience with such crimes).

RN and MD experts all will have the educational aspect as well but that is because they cannot get the training and experience without first having gotten the education. In other contexts, plumbers, mechanics, contractors and others are used routinely as experts and not all have diplomas. The mail order diplomas, however, give ammunition for cross examination and to me, shows the depths that the State had to sink to find a hired gun, but I also can understand how the Court would allow someone to qualify as an expert if they had the requisite training and experience. Personally, I thought the guy came off as a bit of a clown and I don't think I would have risked calling him as an expert in the first place. The prosecution, obviously thought otherwise.

 

[kyleb]

given his experience was with the Tiffin, OH PD, a town of 15,000 people

He also had some consulting experience elsewhere. I don't remember the details off hand but recall it being discussed while he was on the stand.

The mail order diplomas, however, give ammunition for cross examination and to me

Shame we can't all agree to avoid acting like lawyers digging for ammunition, and rather agree to focus on dispassionate analysis of the facts.

Personally, I thought the guy came off as a bit of a clown and I don't think I would have risked calling him as an expert in the first place.

I agree that Griffis came off like a clown in much of his testimony. However, I contend that the prosecution would've been remiss not someone on the stand to testify regarding occult related crimes, and can't rightly say if they had a better option than Griffis available to them for that.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I agree that Griffis came off like a clown in much of his testimony. However, I contend that the prosecution would've been remiss not someone on the stand to testify regarding occult related crimes, and can't rightly say if they had a better option than Griffis available to them for that.

I agree that, if the prosecution was putting forth the Satanic/occult motvie (which I think they did), they needed to present testimony regarding it. However, if Griffis was the prosecution's best option, IMO, that speaks volumes about the Satanic/occult motive, doesn't it?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I agree that, if the prosecution was putting forth the Satanic/occult motvie (which I think they did), they needed to present testimony regarding it. However, if Griffis was the prosecution's best option, IMO, that speaks volumes about the Satanic/occult motive, doesn't it?

Agree, I actually think what was done in this case in regards to Damien's beliefs was religious discrimination .. I have absolutely no issue with any of his beliefs or the books he was reading at the time, I have read most of those books too and was myself reading Aleister Crowley at his age and everything I could on the 'unknown' .. I actually have no real religious beliefs, but certainly don't criticise anyone else for whatever beliefs they have, or any books they might wish to read while deciding if they will follow any religion.