Connecticut school district on lockdown after shooting report at a Newtown elemen #9

[Donjeta]

Who is the "he" you're referring to?

Yes, the point has already been made multiple times that Aspergers doesn't morph into schizophrenia or vice versa. In fact, I know of no developmental disorder that morphs into a psychiatric disorder. Again, I've heard of co-morbidity of one or more disorders/illnesses, but never that one disorder transforms into another.

The thing that I'm currently interested in is what the statistics say about the co-morbidity of Aspergers with schizophrenia. A poster earlier stated that MDs often misdiagnose Aspergers as schizophrenia when the patient is young. I'm interested in the percentage of misdiagnosis, and comorbidity of both disorders.

Also, it would be great is someone could lay out side-by-side the symptoms of Aspergers vs. symptoms of schizophrenia, and the age of onset for both. TIA

There is a problem with defining the comorbidity of Asperger/schizophrenia, IMO, which is that at least according to the current diagnostic categories you shouldn't diagnose Asperger's syndrome if the person also meets the criteria for schizophrenia.

From DSM-IV criteria for Asperger's syndrome:

(VI) Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia."

http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-aspergers.html

 

[bourne]

A poster gave an excellent FBI link yesterday called "The School Shooter:
A THREAT ASSESSMENT PERSPECTIVE". I read it and it contains multi-tier analyses of assessing threats, and also discusses a 4-prong approach to evaluate how likely a person (generally a student) becomes an actual school shooter.

It addresses the individual's personality, the family, school, and social dynamics. It's a worthy read! Highly recommend It can help enlighten some of motive behind AL's shooting.

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/school-shooter/

 

[bourne]

There is a problem with defining the comorbidity of Asperger/schizophrenia, IMO, which is that at least according to the current diagnostic categories you shouldn't diagnose Asperger's syndrome if the person also meets the criteria for schizophrenia.

From DSM-IV criteria for Asperger's syndrome:

http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-aspergers.html

I wonder why it says that. Does that mean schizophrenia or pervasive developmental disorder are "umbrella" psychiatric diagnoses that incorporate Aspergers? That Aspergers are a subset to schizophrenia/pervasive developmental disorder?

How do we differentiate Aspergers from schizophrenia then?

I don't have the DSM-IV, but can you list the symptoms that are associated with each disorder here so we can learn more? TIA

 

[Charlie09]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but.....Well, if it turns out to be true that ALs mother was afraid to let him use the KITCHEN because he might hurt himself, then I would have to say that's a pretty good sign that keeping a cache of firearms right next to him in the basement wasn't such a good idea.

Maybe that would be a good place to begin on evaluating who should be allowed to own firearms.

I mean the kid couldn't speak, make eye contact or care for himself in some pretty basic ways, but letting him have a gun or 5 is nooooo problem.

Gee, what's the worst that could happen? Ugh.

He didn't have a gun, she had them. It's pure speculation that she wouldn't let him in the kitchen for any reason at all.

No ONE - saw this coming - no one. My question is not about the guns it's WHY didn't any one know what was going on.

There's a lot of armchair hindsight going on - just because someone doesn't have eye contact doesn't mean they can't shoot a gun or shouldn't be able to defend themselves.

You don't know that he couldn't speak, we have reports that he was uncomfortable speaking. But we also have reports that while he was shy, he could be funny and talk to some people.

So you can't really have a blanket statement that if you are uncomfortable with others, if you're super smart, if you don't look at people in the eyes that keeps you from learning to shoot a gun.

If you really want to discuss gun control I understand there's a thread about it - I am not there until they actually open the political pavilion again.

 

[Donjeta]

I'm not sure what the rationale behind the exclusion criteria is but it might have something to do with the overlap between the negative symptoms of schizophrenia and the characteristic withdrawal and social problems of autistic spectrum disorders

Asperger according to DSM-IV
http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-aspergers.html

What the schizophrenia criteria say about the possibility of comorbidity:
http://behavenet.com/schizophrenia

F. Relationship to a Pervasive Developmental Disorder: If there is a history of Autistic Disorder or another Pervasive Developmental Disorder, the additional diagnosis of Schizophrenia is made only if prominent delusions or hallucinations are also present for at least a month (or less if successfully treated).

There is a DSM revision coming up shortly (DSM-5) and I read that Asperger's syndrome will no longer be a separate category in that but it will be swallowed into the broader autistic spectrum diagnostic category. Not sure if they are going to change the exclusion criteria.

I don't think Asperger is characterized as a subset of schizophrenia or vice versa.

An article about Autism and Schizophrenia that may be of interest:
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/schizophrenia/content/article/10168/1822823

 

[Bipolar Express]

I'm not sure what the rationale between the exclusion criteria is but it might have something to do with the overlap between the negative symptoms of schizophrenia and the characteristic withdrawal and social problems of autistic spectrum disorders

Asperger according to DSM-IV
http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-aspergers.html

What the schizophrenia criteria say about the possibility of comorbidity:
http://behavenet.com/schizophrenia


There is a DSM revision coming up shortly (DSM-5) and I read that Asperger's syndrome will no longer be a separate category in that but it will be swallowed into the broader autistic spectrum diagnostic category. Not sure if they are going to change the exclusion criteria.

I don't think Asperger is characterized as a subset of schizophrenia or vice versa.

The DSM is saying that diagnosing someone who has been diagnosed with Aspergers, UNLESS there have been hallucinations or breaks in reality, is something that is discouraged because of the similarity in certain behaviors....which leads to misdiagnosis.

 

[MyBelle]

Aspergers can't morph into schizophrenia. However, he could have received an incorrect diagnosis as a child. Or perhaps he had both.

Or perhaps neither. I've yet to find anything that conclusively states Adam was ever diagnosed by or ever visited with a psychiatrist. At this point, it is entirely possible the diagnosis was via google by a well-meaning but terribly misguided parent desperate for a milder condition that still represents a form of normalcy.

JMO

 

[Donjeta]

Or perhaps neither. I've yet to find anything that conclusively states Adam was ever diagnosed by or ever visited with a psychiatrist. At this point, it is entirely possible the diagnosis was by google by a well-meaning but terribly misguided parent desperate for a milder condition that still represents a form of normalcy.

JMO

It was reported that there are records related to psychiatric care he had received so it would seem he met with somebody at some point of his life even if we don't know what the outcome of the visits was.

On Friday, detectives obtained and began examining records related to psychiatric care Lanza had received in an attempt to determine a motive.

http://www.courant.com/news/connect...ting/hc-lanza-gunjam-20121222,0,3580899.story

 

[Elley Mae]

Or perhaps neither. I've yet to find anything that conclusively states Adam was ever diagnosed by or ever visited with a psychiatrist. At this point, it is entirely possible the diagnosis was via google by a well-meaning but terribly misguided parent desperate for a milder condition that still represents a form of normalcy.

JMO

My thoughts exactly.

 

[MyBelle]

It was reported that there are records related to psychiatric care he had received so it would seem he met with somebody at some point of his life even if we don't know what the outcome of the visits was.


http://www.courant.com/news/connect...ting/hc-lanza-gunjam-20121222,0,3580899.story

We don't know that the outcome was a diagnosis of Asperger's and that is my point. The "outcome" may have been a follow-up appointment that was never kept.

JMO

 

[Donjeta]

We also don't know that it wasn't.

 

[MyBelle]

We also don't know that it wasn't.

I think the ME and detectives are pretty sure it wasn't.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162...r-seeks-genetic-clues-to-adam-lanzas-motives/

Carver however says Asperger's is not associated with violent behavior, a point many experts and advocates have been raising in light of the reports of Lanza's condition. He says he's not considering Asperger's as a reason for Lanza's rampage on Friday.

JMO

 

[nursebeeme]

I think the ME and detectives are pretty sure it wasn't.

JMO

I think we don't know much of anything... we all have to be patient and wait for the final report (which reportedly could take months)

we could really go back and forth guessing all day at this point.:twocents:

 

[4MYGUYS]

yes, free to play in his "virtual kill human target" reality world, hour after hour after hour. I dont know that this happened, but I have seen supposedly normal young men his age come home from college and do exactly that. immerse themselves in a virtual kill stranger reality world for hours on end.

but, they are only games. ever seen one? you should b4 you let your kids immerse themselves in that "world".

im sure the gaming industry has plenty of psychologists willing to make studies proving that "gaming' isn't harmful. reminds me of the tobacco industry back in the day....

but think about it, how could it possibly be safe for anyone to immerse themselves in a virtual kill stranger reality for days on end, not to mention a mentally challenged person...all this talk about possible mental diagnosis is interesting, but he was SICK in the head to be sure, and if he immersed himself in a reality where a shooter did exactly what he eventually did (xcept to unknown adults) how is it that so many people are unwilling to make the obvious connection?

after a reasonable post death diagnosis is made, what then? mass murder is not a characteristic of any of those childhood mental illnesses anyways.

I'd like to see a chart that shows how many of these mass murderers in the last 5 years were active virtual kill human target "players". thats what I would like to see.

TOTALLY AGREE!!!! :furious:Then add the basement living quarters, & I don't care if it was a tree house, basically out of sight ....out of mind..... ??? , Then add a cache of guns, jeez,,, it is so unbelievable.
I raised a bunch of boys, the video game cord got cut by me after a few weeks. The TV came out of the bedrooms 2 days after the Christmas they got it. Intervention is not hard. I was not a friend to my kids, I was their parent.

 

[Donjeta]

I think the ME and detectives are pretty sure it wasn't.

JMO

I took the ME's comments as saying that he did not consider Asperger as an explanation for AL's shooting spree, not as saying that he had ascertained AL was never diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome. I don't think he could tell whether AL had it or not based on the autopsy.

Who knows.

 

[MyBelle]

I think we don't know much of anything... we all have to be patient and wait for the final report (which reportedly could take months)

we could really go back and forth guessing all day at this point.:twocents:

I don't believe the ME is guessing at this point. While there is no dispute something was terribly wrong with Adam Lanza, I think the Asperger's is a diagnosis that came only from his mother.

JMO

 

[jjenny]

Really? Wouldn't he have to receive a diagnosis from a psychiatrist in order to receive special services from school? Why would his mother diagnose him?
I don't believe it for a second.

 

[MyBelle]

I took the ME's comments as saying that he did not consider Asperger as an explanation for AL's shooting spree, not as saying that he had ascertained AL was never diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome. I don't think he could tell whether AL had it or not based on the autopsy.

Who knows.

If Adam Lanza had ever been diagnosed with Asperger's by a professional, he would qualify for special education and the diagnosis would be in an IEP/MDT report that becomes a permanent part of a permanent school record. Here we are two weeks later and authorities are still searching for an explanation.

It isn't much of a leap to conclude he was never diagnosed with Asperger's by a professional.

JMO

 

[jjenny]

I think the ME and detectives are pretty sure it wasn't.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162...r-seeks-genetic-clues-to-adam-lanzas-motives/

Carver however says Asperger's is not associated with violent behavior, a point many experts and advocates have been raising in light of the reports of Lanza's condition. He says he's not considering Asperger's as a reason for Lanza's rampage on Friday.

JMO

They are saying Asperger's wasn't a cause of mass shooting. It doesn't mean he didn't have this condition.

 

[jjenny]

If Adam Lanza had ever been diagnosed with Asperger's by a professional, he would qualify for special education and the diagnosis would be in an IEP/MDT report that becomes a permanent part of a permanent school record. Here we are two weeks later and authorities are still searching for an explanation.

It isn't much of a leap to conclude he was never diagnosed with Asperger's by a professional.

JMO

He was receiving special services at school. Him having an Asperger's wouldn't, however, be an explanation for the shooting.