Connecticut school district on lockdown after shooting report at a Newtown elemen #9

[jjenny]

eta- where did AR15's come into discussion? Did they at all?

Bushmaster rifle is the same as AR 15

"The primary weapon used in the attack was a "Bushmaster AR-15 assault-type weapon," said Connecticut State Police Lt. Paul Vance. The rifle is a Bushmaster version of a widely made AR-15, the civilian version of the M-16 rifle used by the U.S. military. The original M-16 patent ran out years ago, and now the AR-15 is manufactured by several gunmakers. Unlike the military version, the AR-15 is a semiautomatic, firing one bullet per squeeze of the trigger. But like the M-16, ammunition is loaded through a magazine. In the school shooting, police say Lanza's rifle used numerous 30-round magazines."

Read more: http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/nation...fle-sig-sauer-9-mm-handgun-used#ixzz2GN3PrS6A

 

[MyBelle]

That's pretty extreme, at what point do you 'institutionalize' a mentally challenged person? Especially one that never shows any violent tendencies?

I'm baffled where you get the idea that AL never showed signs of violent tendencies. What friend or family member has stepped forward saying they recently saw him or interacted with him? I'd appreciate a link. Thanks.

JMO

 

[Donjeta]

BBM. There was evidence YEARS AGO that the child was mentally disturbed far beyond "awkward." Normal children do feel pain and do not require staff to prevent them from injuring themselves. Mentally disturbed children are vulnerable and not capable of making choices in their best interest whether it be violent video games or diving into the deep end of a pool. Most parents I know who want to teach their children "responsibility" start with small chores and graduate to pets, not artillary. There have been too many cases of children being pulled out of school by parents who want to avoid intervention. I believe this will be true in this case.

There is ample evidence that mentally disturbed children left untreated are likely to grow even more unstable as adults.

The aunt of Connecticut shooter Adam Lanza said the shooter's mother pulled him out of Newtown's public school system because she was unhappy with the school district's plans for her son.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/adam-lanzas-mom-pulled-school-relative/story?id=17985433


JMO

Insensitivity to pain is not evidence of mental disturbance. Sometimes it's just insensitivity to pain.
It is certainly not evidence that all the individuals with it should be institutionalized to prevent a mass murder in the far future.

Do we know for a fact that NL was unhappy with the school district plans because they offered too much helpful support for her son? Sometimes parents are unhappy because the school district does not offer enough or not the right kind. Do we know for a fact that he was untreated?

I agree that children need support and guidance from parents because they are not capable of making adult decisions for themselves, and that the gun hobby was not a good choice.

 

[Donjeta]

Where do you get that AL had a personality disorder? And where have psychologists or psychiatrists said he was impossible to treat?

So far the only source I have seen saying that he had a personality disorder is the brother. No psychologists or psychiatrists who treated him have said anything in public (and I don't think they should.)

In general, personality disorders are rather difficult to treat, at least the ones that mass murderers tend to have.

I'm saying AL should have been under the care of a medical professional as a child.

How do you know he wasn't?

I linked an article that quoted family as saying his mother withdrew him from school and "battled" the school before withdrawing him from school.

His target for annihilation was a school.

I think if lobotomy was the prescribed "treatment" by the medical professionals providing oversight to his care--rather than a steady diet of guns, solitude and violent games--we'd have 26 innocents still with us.

JMO

Which children would you lobotomize according to which criteria? How do you know which innocent children will grow up to be mass murderers and which will not?

 

[MyBelle]

Insensitivity to pain is not evidence of mental disturbance. Sometimes it's just insensitivity to pain.
It is certainly not evidence that all the individuals with it should be institutionalized to prevent a mass murder in the far future.

Do we know for a fact that NL was unhappy with the school district plans because they offered too much helpful support for her son? Sometimes parents are unhappy because the school district does not offer enough or not the right kind. Do we know for a fact that he was untreated? I agree that children need support and guidance from parents because they are not capable of making adult decisions for themselves, and that the gun hobby was not a good choice.

BBM. The ME is still searching for a diagnosis. I think 27 dead bodies are proof AL was untreated nor do I believe his mother was the expert who knew better than the school's professional team.

I never suggested that all individuals should be institutionalized.

The article I linked said NL battled the school district plan. If NL was unhappy that the school district did not offer enough support she certainly had the resources to pay for additional care outside of school. Instead, she apparently chose another path that is still unknown.

JMO

 

[Donjeta]

BBM. The ME is still searching for a diagnosis. I think 27 dead bodies are proof AL was untreated nor do I believe his mother was the expert who knew better than the school's professional team.

I never suggested that all individuals should be institutionalized.

The article I linked said NL battled the school district plan. If NL was unhappy that the school district did not offer enough support she certainly had the resources to pay for additional care outside of school. Instead, she apparently chose another path that is still unknown.

JMO

How do you know that she did not pay for additional resources outside of school?

If you did not suggest that all individuals should be institutionalized then you'd probably need to suggest some way to how to tell apart the individuals that will commit mass murder from those that will not to use institutionalization as an effective preventive measure.

Just looking at them afterward and saying, "this man killed people so he should have been institutionalized" isn't exactly helpful.

There have been several murderers who were receiving psychiatric care.
Having committed a crime does therefore not prove that anyone was untreated to me.

 

[Marina2]

Where do you get that AL had a personality disorder? And where have psychologists or psychiatrists said he was impossible to treat?

I'm saying AL should have been under the care of a medical professional as a child.

I linked an article that quoted family as saying his mother withdrew him from school and "battled" the school before withdrawing him from school.

His target for annihilation was a school.

I think if lobotomy was the prescribed "treatment" by the medical professionals providing oversight to his care--rather than a steady diet of guns, solitude and violent games--we'd have 26 innocents still with us.

JMO

It is my opinion only that he had a personality disorder rather than severe mental disturbance such as schizophrenia, etc. Psychiatrists and psychologist have not said HE was impossible to treat. They have said that personality disorders are near impossible to treat. Please don't change my words around. A quick read on the subject will show the difficulty treating personality disorders.

You have no basis for saying that he should have been under the care of a medical professional as a child nor do you know that he wasn't.

The article you linked stated that she pulled him out of school because she did not agree to the school plan for him. We don't know what that plan was nor we even know that that is true. Schools do not treat mental illness.

IMO, he targeted the school in order to kill the most and effect the most shock. That's what mass murderers do.

I was being facetious with the lobotomy question. I'm sure AL did not meet the criteria for a lobotomy.

Hindsight and all that... isn't it wonderful?

 

[Abby Normal Again]

Bushmaster was used to kill students and teachers.

"Adam Lanza used a Bushmaster .223 semi-automatic rifle at close range to kill children and adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut on Friday."

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/conne...a-mothers-guns/story?id=17984499#.UN3dr6wkS4o

Bushmaster rifle is the same as AR 15

"The primary weapon used in the attack was a "Bushmaster AR-15 assault-type weapon," said Connecticut State Police Lt. Paul Vance. The rifle is a Bushmaster version of a widely made AR-15, the civilian version of the M-16 rifle used by the U.S. military. The original M-16 patent ran out years ago, and now the AR-15 is manufactured by several gunmakers. Unlike the military version, the AR-15 is a semiautomatic, firing one bullet per squeeze of the trigger. But like the M-16, ammunition is loaded through a magazine. In the school shooting, police say Lanza's rifle used numerous 30-round magazines."

Read more: http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/nation...fle-sig-sauer-9-mm-handgun-used#ixzz2GN3PrS6A

Thank you! I read something different elsewhere and was afraid I had gotten mixed up and was mistaken. Not being a gun person, I thought maybe I didn't understand properly. What you posted is exactly what I thought- and helped clarify for me. Thank you for taking the time!

 

[MyBelle]

How do you know that she did not pay for additional resources outside of school?

If you did not suggest that all individuals should be institutionalized then you'd probably need to suggest some way to how to tell apart the individuals that will commit mass murder from those that will not to use institutionalization as an effective preventive measure.

Just looking at them afterward and saying, "this man killed people so he should have been institutionalized" isn't exactly helpful.
There have been several murderers who were receiving psychiatric care.
Having committed a crime does therefore not prove that anyone was untreated to me.

BBM. It isn't helpful so please stop saying I said this.

All I know is that the child was withdrawn from school and homeschooled. I also know at that point, the child lost all resources available from the school.
He grew into a man who had no job who lived a solitary life playing violent video games in the basement of his mother's house. His mother told babysitters to never turn their back to him. Where is your evidence he was in any way treated by a professional?

Family and friends have said his mother was considering institutionalizing Adam and that he was deteriorating. There are 27 dead bodies that prove Adam was untreated. That's all the proof I need.

JMO

 

[Donjeta]

BBM. It isn't helpful so please stop saying I said this.

All I know is that the child was withdrawn from school and homeschooled. I also know at that point, the child lost all resources available from the school.
He grew into a man who had no job who lived a solitary life playing violent video games in the basement of his mother's house. His mother told babysitters to never turn their back to him. Where is your evidence he was in any way treated by a professional?

Family and friends have said his mother was considering institutionalizing Adam and that he was deteriorating. There are 27 dead bodies that prove Adam was untreated. That's all the proof I need.

JMO

If you define "being treated by a professional" as equal to "the outcome is good, nothing bad happens, everybody is happy", then he obviously was not treated by a professional.

If you define "being treated by a professional" in a more traditional way the outcome is sometimes bad anyway and things going badly is not evidence either way.

 

[human]

I am only guessing , of course, but I have seen it so often.

The school says a child needs help.

The parent (s) know their child is a misunderstood genius and they start shopping around for different schools. A school that will concur with the parent's diagnosis.

Not all schools are good for sure.

Sounds like the Newtown schools went way beyond that which I have ever encountered.

 

[cityslick]

BBM. It isn't helpful so please stop saying I said this.

All I know is that the child was withdrawn from school and homeschooled. I also know at that point, the child lost all resources available from the school.
He grew into a man who had no job who lived a solitary life playing violent video games in the basement of his mother's house. His mother told babysitters to never turn their back to him. Where is your evidence he was in any way treated by a professional?

Family and friends have said his mother was considering institutionalizing Adam and that he was deteriorating. There are 27 dead bodies that prove Adam was untreated. That's all the proof I need.

JMO

BBM

The point that is trying to be made is even if he's treated by a professional does not prevent this type of thing from happening. There are alot of men playing Call of Duty in their mom's basement, they don't all turn out to be mass murderers.

I think you are wrong to think that only one type of individual (a mentally disturbed person who plays violent video games) carries out these types of attacks. I also disagree with the idea that somehow there are signs to predict this type of thing from happening. That question has been asked since Columbine and last I checked, there hasn't been an answer.

 

[MyBelle]

I am only guessing , of course, but I have seen it so often.

The school says a child needs help.

The parent (s) know their child is a misunderstood genius and they start shopping around for different schools. A school that will concur with the parent's diagnosis.
Not all schools are good for sure.

Sounds like the Newtown schools went way beyond that which I have ever encountered.

BBM. And when a school can't be found that concurs, the parent withdraws the child totally and then blames the school.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

BBM

The point that is trying to be made is even if he's treated by a professional does not prevent this type of thing from happening. There are alot of men playing Call of Duty in their mom's basement, they don't all turn out to be mass murderers.

I think you are wrong to think that only one type of individual (a mentally disturbed person who plays violent video games) carries out these types of attacks. I also disagree with the idea that somehow there are signs to predict this type of thing from happening. That question has been asked since Columbine and last I checked, there hasn't been an answer.

You are assuming Adam was treated by a professional. And the fact is that a mentally disturbed person who played violent video games DID massacre a large group of people. How many such attacks is it going to take to convince you that mentally disturbed people should not engage in violent hobbies?

While there may be a lot of men playing Call of Duty, I doubt they are unemployed and isolated in Mommy's basement. There are pretty clear signs but one has to open their eyes to see them or open the front door so others can see them.

JMO

 

[Donjeta]

Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold went to high school. It didn't stop them from becoming murderers.

 

[MyBelle]

Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold went to high school. It didn't stop them from becoming murderers.

Who said going to high school would stop any killer?

Like Lanza, Harris and Klebold's hobbies of guns and violent videos certainly helped them become annihilators.

JMO

 

[Donjeta]

Who said going to high school would stop any killer?

Like Lanza, Harris and Klebold's hobbies of guns and violent videos certainly helped them become annihilators.

JMO

If attending high school doesn't prevent murder then why are we blaming the decision to home school AL for it?

There is nothing that unfailingly stops everybody from committing a crime. No schooling decisions, no psychiatric treatment, no nothing.

Even if the parents went against the school recommendations at some point several years ago it is possible that his mother did all she could to get him help in recent times. It's not easy if the person is an adult and doesn't want it.

 

[MyBelle]

If attending high school doesn't prevent murder then why are we blaming the decision to home school AL for it?

There is no "we."

It is the people making decisions that are not in the best interest of the child who are to be blamed. Whether it be about assault weapons, video games or isolation.

JMO

 

[Donjeta]

There is no "we."

It is the people making decisions that are not in the best interest of the child who are to be blamed. Whether it be about assault weapons, video games or isolation.

JMO

He had been an adult for a while.

 

[Xavier]

BBM. The ME is still searching for a diagnosis. I think 27 dead bodies are proof AL was untreated nor do I believe his mother was the expert who knew better than the school's professional team.

I never suggested that all individuals should be institutionalized.

The article I linked said NL battled the school district plan. If NL was unhappy that the school district did not offer enough support she certainly had the resources to pay for additional care outside of school. Instead, she apparently chose another path that is still unknown.

JMO

I read the MAYO CLINIC site on Aspergers and other illnesses/disorders

These are the experts and they say Aspergers cannot be cured/treated with medication since it's not a disease but a congenital birth defect

So if AL had Aspergers, really the only things available to help him possibly could be some medications to subdue AL's anti social anxieties and therapy

But no one's stepped to discuss AL's medication/therapy if he was undergoing this treatment plan at all...So really we're all speculating since we don't have definitive proof yet what disorder/disease he had or treatment plans the Lanza family was committed to

I've no clue about this illness, but I will take the word from seasoned experts @ MAYO

One thing is crystal clear...AL was messed up, had some major anti social behaviors and likely would've killed people sometime in his life, since just about anything messing up his routine/lifestyle would've meant someone would've paid the price