Conrad Murray trial -Day eleven.

[Thundar]

Give him time....

Spoke too soon didn't I?

 

[2goaliemom]

Don't know if this has been posted. Defense drops theory that MJ drank the Propofol

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/12/justice/california-conrad-murray-trial/

 

[outofstatelawyer]

What a weak argument Flanagan is using now. A doctor does not need to take notes if he has the SAME patient for 15 hours at a time. That is so ridiculous. Notes are for the next doctor to help them know what is happening and what has been done.

Flanagan is grasping at straws here, once again.

Notes are also for hospital review boards, medical malpractice cases, and yes, even criminal cases. Of course, if you are doing something entirely unethical, and then are criminally negligent and your patient dies as a result, then you wouldn't take notes. That's what I would be thinking if I were a juror.

 

[Thundar]

Don't know if this has been posted. Defense drops theory that MJ drank the Propofol

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/12/justice/california-conrad-murray-trial/

I heard that from Beth on HLN last night, it made sense to me since defense was going on and on about the 8 lorazapam pills instead of drinking propofol. Since so many Dr.s have stated drinking propofol would not produce the result defense wanted it to produce they probably had no choice but to change their outlook.

 

[outofstatelawyer]

Either Beth K or Jane V-M just reminded me that when using an IV without the pump, the IV fluids (meds) can become infiltrated in the patient.

Another words, if the patient repositions or has weak viens, the fluid can all of a sudden flow at a very rapid speed and overdose the patient .

This happened so frequently with my babies and toddlers when I worked at Children's Hospital LA... before the pumps were invented.
CM did not have the pump for MJ's IV.

Yet another reason not to leave the patient unattended.

 

[borndem]

The Doc is describing how I learned & had to hang IV's.

This was before the pump was invented & when I worked at Children's Hosp LA on med floor & the ER & then L/D in a CT Hosp.

We had to calculate how much of 1000 ml a patient could get by counting how many drops he'd get in a minute!!!

New nurses today are lucky they never had to do that.

Sounds like slide rules vs. calculators...., peace!!!

What a PITA, huh?

(yes, you'll find "slide rule" on google

)

 

[Thundar]

Not knowing much about IV veins and such..

Did the cornor say anything about MJ's veins being a bust so to say?? I would have to guess that having and IV for 60 day's straight would colapse one's veins or does it take longer than that??

The coronor mentioned the arteries and viens from the heart had no plack(sp) or fatty buildup, very healthy viens for a 50 year old but I don't think he said anything about the condition of the viens in his arms or legs. I could have missed that tho.

 

[peace9274]

Not knowing much about IV veins and such..

Did the cornor say anything about MJ's veins being a bust so to say?? I would have to guess that having and IV for 60 day's straight would colapse one's veins or does it take longer than that??

According to the diagram of MJ's body for the autopsy report, there were
several places all over MJ's body where veins were attempted to use for the IVs.

CM used a spot just below MJ's knee for the IV the night he died.

I've never seen an IV used there... but if the veins are bad in the usual places, I guess any place will do.

Even when the veins are good, if there is not a pump being used, it is all the more reason to watch the IV
carefully and check very frequently to make sure it is dripping at the rate desired.... so it doesn't infiltrate
or so the pt doesn't receive the med too fast or too slowly.

Back in my early days of being a nurse, we didn't have IV Teams/Staff to start the IVs, either... we were on
our own and had to make sure, if assigned 8 patients, who were anywhere between 1 month old to 11 yrs old...
there may be 8 IVs to be responsible for in an 8 hr shift. And some of these kids would be running up and down the corridors!

 

[borndem]

This proves why there needs to be documentation about every single thing done to the patient!

Yes, we each have only one a**, and although mine could be a bit smaller, I like it without and chomp marks.

Seriously, the patient and family (in some cases) has got to know what he/she's getting into before getting on that table.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The State is 'smokin' :rocker:today and pouring on the coal.

This is a great day for the state and Flan has made it even better for the state.

It is bad when the DT has to admit that their own client lied and omitted things to LE.

IMO

 

[MsBashterd]

Thank You Peace!!!!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The coroner mentioned the arteries and viens from the heart had no plack(sp) or fatty buildup, very healthy veins for a 50 year old but I don't think he said anything about the condition of the veins in his arms or legs. I could have missed that tho.

The ME made no mention of any old collapsed veins.

We have to remember Murray had been doing this for 60 days so he was bound to have a lot of puncture wounds plus some of them were from the EMTs and at the hospital.



IMO

 

[tweezybird]

Thanks Thundar, I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question.
Terri

 

[octobermoon]

The ME made no mention of any old collapsed veins.

We have to remember Murray had been doing this for 60 days so he was bound to have a lot of puncture wounds plus some of them were from the EMTs and at the hospital.



IMO

I think it was CM who said that MJ's veins were hard to find. Or I heard it wrong.

 

[Thundar]

I think it was CM who said that MJ's veins were hard to find. Or I heard it wrong.

On one hand all we have to go on is Murray's statement but on the other hand is any part of what he has said true? Kind of like the defense trying to get the witness to answer hypotheticals about the 2 minutes being longer and the witness says, Murrays own words are all I have to base my opinions on. Like defense doesn't even believe Murrays interview, but we are supposed to until they tell us not to.

 

[octobermoon]

Yep Thundar, that seems to be what they want.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I think it was CM who said that MJ's veins were hard to find. Or I heard it wrong.

You are right and because imo it has been proven that Murray is prone to lie I totally discount his words.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

On one hand all we have to go on is Murray's statement but on the other hand is any part of what he has said true? Kind of like the defense trying to get the witness to answer hypotheticals about the 2 minutes being longer and the witness says, Murrays own words are all I have to base my opinions on. Like defense doesn't even believe Murrays interview, but we are supposed to until they tell us not to.

I really think the highlight of his testimony was about using a drip. Murray mentioned it three times in his interview.

And really why would he just give MJ 25 mg which would only put him under for 4 minutes. I think he initially gave him that to get him under and then set up the drip.

I imagine that was in the black bag that was never found.

IMO

 

[peace9274]

I think it was CM who said that MJ's veins were hard to find. Or I heard it wrong.

CM said in his interview with LE, (detective?) that he told MJ several times that his
(MJ's) veins were sclerotic.... (also called hardening, according to M-W Dictionary).

 

[peace9274]

Was it mentioned why Conrad Murray is/was not Board Certified?