Coronavirus COVID-19 - Global Health Pandemic #56

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  • #241
What can we learn from Sweden's Covid-19 ICU figures?
(Ireland)
It can be very tricky to compare the Covid-19 experiences of different countries. Populations are not evenly distributed in terms of age, location, ethnicity, social class, or culture. Different groups and regions are not equally susceptible to the virus.

Then there is the fact that countries measure the impact of the coronavirus differently. For instance, Ireland is one of only a very small number of European countries that includes both nursing homes and suspected or probable Covid-19 cases in official numbers.

This doesn't stop people making international comparisons though. With so many people straining at the leash to break out of lockdown, many point to the different experience in Sweden with no lockdown. It raises questions about whether Ireland’s social, travel, and work restrictions needed to be so tough here after all.

For anyone who asks that question of Chief Medical Officer Dr Tony Holohan, he has a very sharp and succinct answer: "Have you seen the intensive care admissions figures for Sweden?"

Well actually, no, not really. We haven’t seen those figures. Sweden’s ICU caseload is hardly headline news here. Perhaps it should be. Because there is something important that Sweden’s critical care experience can tell us. It is this: there never was any realistic alternative strategy that Ireland could have pursued.

Our healthcare system simply could not have coped with the more relaxed approach taken by Sweden. This graph showing the number of people treated in intensive care in Ireland and in Sweden shows why.

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There are two striking observations about the graph. The first is that the underlying level of Covid-19 disease in Sweden, as evidenced by the numbers in intensive care, is running very significantly above the levels of disease in Ireland and has been doing so since the start.

In fact, the level of disease in Sweden is three times higher than in Ireland if the ICU occupancy rates are any guide. If anything, the gap between both countries appears to be widening, as Ireland continues to strangle the spread of the virus by retaining the lockdown while Sweden pursues its more relaxed approach.

The second striking observation is that while the number of confirmed Covid-19 cases in intensive care in Ireland was down to 72 by 10 May, on a like-for-like basis the number for Sweden was 233. That is more than three times the level of disease in Ireland.

This is a huge gap. It suggests that if Ireland had followed the Swedish more relaxed approach to social distancing, we would have required at least another 161 beds in intensive care for confirmed Covid-19 patients alone.

Add to that the additional beds required for three times as many "presumed or suspected" Covid-19 cases - which have always been a significant and constant feature in intensive care. The number of extra beds required for Covid-19 patients would then be above 200 by now.

We just do not have that capacity in intensive care. Notwithstanding the issue about where in the country those vacant beds might have been required, by 10 May we could accommodate, at a push, about 150 additional patients in fully-staffed ICU beds nationwide.

Before this crisis began, Ireland only had about 225 intensive care beds nationally. By 10 May, including non-Covid-19 patients, there were 257 people receiving critical care in Irish hospitals. That means even with the lockdown, if the HSE had not scrambled to expand critical care capacity, hospitals in Ireland would have been in serious trouble by now with medics having to make torturous decisions about who to allow into critical care units and who to turn away.

Our health system could not have coped. Fortunately, that did not happen because of the extra critical care capacity that was put in place.

But what if our National Public Health Emergency Team had advised the Government to follow the Swedes? What if the level of Covid-19 illness was more than three times as high in Ireland as it is now? Because that is precisely what the Swedish intensive care numbers tell us would have happened.

It would have been a disaster. It would have put Ireland right up there with Italy and Spain, in terms of the horrific scenes and experiences that we would have had to endure and witness. The European Centre for Disease Control highlighted that Ireland started into the crisis with the lowest number of intensive care beds per capita in Europe.


Our healthcare system was simply never strong enough to endure the journey that the Swedes embarked on. It just could not have coped and it is hard to imagine how Irish society would have coped.

[More at link]

What can we learn from Sweden's Covid-19 ICU figures?
Ireland deaths per million 297, Sweden deaths per million 328 so not too dissimilar, but quite surprising consider Ireland had lockdown. So is lockdown simply to control the hospital intakes and ICU capacity and the deaths are not necessarily going to be more but over a longer period?
 
  • #242
Ireland deaths per million 297, Sweden deaths per million 328 so not too dissimilar, but quite surprising consider Ireland had lockdown. So is lockdown simply to control the hospital intakes and ICU capacity and the deaths are not necessarily going to be more but over a longer period?
Yes the lockdown is primarily to reduce admissions to hospital and ICU to keep them at numbers our health system can manage. Without it, it seems hospitals would simply have been overwhelmed here in April and May. Even with the lockdown our numbers are still quite high but at the moment we can cope.
 
  • #243
Ireland deaths per million 297, Sweden deaths per million 328 so not too dissimilar, but quite surprising consider Ireland had lockdown. So is lockdown simply to control the hospital intakes and ICU capacity and the deaths are not necessarily going to be more but over a longer period?

That is correct. Avoiding healthcare overrun. For the most part, the lockdown does not save lives, other than those saved by not getting proper care due to overcrowding. I think most people miss the point that the lockdown just spreads infections etc down the line.

Another point (IMO): greater than 90% of deaths are not a result of government action or non-action, but a result of the coronavirus. We are just controlling the timeline. At a cataclysmic economic cost.
 
  • #244
That is correct. Avoiding healthcare overrun. For the most part, the lockdown does not save lives, other than those saved by not getting proper care due to overcrowding. I think most people miss the point that the lockdown just spreads infections etc down the line.

Another point (IMO): greater than 90% of deaths are not a result of government action or non-action, but a result of the coronavirus. We are just controlling the timeline. At a cataclysmic economic cost.
So why are the estimates of deaths so unbelievably enormous? Are they still going to happen but spread out over another year?
 
  • #245
Sweden is at a 100,000 "US equivalent deaths." The only reason their numbers look good to us is because their population is only 10 millions.
Their numbers also look good for 2 other reasons, in my opinion.

One, they didn't do a total lockdown, so their immunity levels will be much higher than many other country's levels.

And also, their economy will be stronger because they kept most businesses top and running during the crisis.
 
  • #246
  • #247
That is correct. Avoiding healthcare overrun. For the most part, the lockdown does not save lives, other than those saved by not getting proper care due to overcrowding. I think most people miss the point that the lockdown just spreads infections etc down the line.

Another point (IMO): greater than 90% of deaths are not a result of government action or non-action, but a result of the coronavirus. We are just controlling the timeline. At a cataclysmic economic cost.

EXACTLY. We cannot postpone the 'inevitable ' forever. At some point, the numbers will continue to rise. :(
 
  • #248
Convincing analysis. The other thing is it is not just total numbers of beds in Ireland, but where are they? Can a patient get transferred to ICU before they succumb to the virus.

But then there is the other thing...why are Sweden's ICU numbers tailing down? I would really like to know. They are nowhere near herd immunity. From what we are told this number should just keep climbing up and the infections multiply non-linearly. For all the advice epidemiologists hand out, there are some things that they just have little to say about.

I was wondering the same. I think this virus sweeps through very vulnerable population - probably 50% of early deaths are very elderly. I can't recall the age exactly, but the median age was something like 78 in the first part of their pandemic. Well, I'd say one factor is most of the people in Sweden who are in their 90's or older are dead, along with a good number of the 80's and of course, some people in their 60's and 70's too. There are only so many of those people.

Another factor is that regardless of what the government has done or said, actual Swedes themselves are pulling back from social interaction as they can see how bad this virus is. Many of the early deaths were in Sweden's immigrant community, and those people have reacted with alarm and are self-quarantining.

Sweden seems to be a very healthy nation, so it's possibly the asymptomatic people are in higher numbers. Not sure how much antibody testing they've done - it would be interesting to see the data.

On forums for Swedish people (like on reddit), it's clear that tons of people are avoiding travel to their own hotspots (Stockholm, other big cities), avoiding crowded indoor spaces, etc.

That's all I can think of.
 
  • #249
I felt as if the casinos would be the first places to fill to capacity. Gambling is a force unto itself.

Pechanga Resort & Casino. It's the only place I miss.
 
  • #250
Thank you for saying this so nicely. I too was puzzled, as I'd like nothing better than to be positive for Antibodies - my whole life would change.

My daughter and husband were very very sick in the third week of January. So far, they can't get antibody tests unless they pay $135, which we are currently trying to arrange. If she's positive, then so is he, as they laid in bed, deathly ill, together for 10 days in January. It would be great if they are immune. I'd be dancing around the house.
Unfortunately at this point we don’t really know that testing positive means someone is immune and can’t get COVID again.

I spoke with an epidemiologist before I had my test and he explained that positive test results don’t mean that you can let your guard down. There have been multiple cases of people getting COVID 19 more than once, and there are already three known mutations.
 
  • #251
EXACTLY. We cannot postpone the 'inevitable ' forever. At some point, the numbers will continue to rise. :(

Yes, overall mortality will continue to rise. It's sobering to think about. The virus is not going to change its nature. Many places are on a plateau in terms of new cases/deaths right now, but when we reopen more and more, it will begin to go up, with only small chances to turn the valve back down again. In the best case scenario, let's say California stays at around 25 deaths per day for the next 3-4 days, but then starts to rise (as we reopen, which we are). At what point do we then clamp down again? If people all wore masks, washed their hands and social distanced, we could probably keep it to 35-50 people a day (1400 deaths a month).

Hospitals will continue to test all patients on admission, I'd think, and I know we plan to do some form of contact tracing. But the disease will still be lurking out there for all of us who haven't had it. Our chances of getting it are now much lower, but it's still there.

And there will be hotspots, with exponential growth - we cannot predict where. We may have to be prepared for a very small number of children to have serious consequences as schools reopen. Lots of parents are not going to want to risk that - getting people to reopen is going to be very interesting.

Eventually, though, if we buy ourselves time through a careful reeopen (and we definitely must reopen, sooner rather than later at this point), there will be more effective treatments, synthesized antibodies, vaccines, etc.

Doctors and nurses have learned so much already.
 
  • #252
Unfortunately at this point we don’t really know that testing positive means someone is immune and can’t get COVID again.

I spoke with an epidemiologist before I had my test and he explained that positive test results don’t mean that you can let your guard down. There have been multiple cases of people getting COVID 19 more than once, and there are already three known mutations.

Viruses typically behave in a way that you get immunity for a period of time, measured beyond a year and coronavirus should behave int his way, per Dr. Fauci. I know there were stories out there that "immune" people got COVID-19 a second time, but the popular story that circulated was recanted, saying the initial tests were false-positives. If there is other information, I would be interested.
 
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  • #253
Unfortunately at this point we don’t really know that testing positive means someone is immune and can’t get COVID again.

I spoke with an epidemiologist before I had my test and he explained that positive test results don’t mean that you can let your guard down. There have been multiple cases of people getting COVID 19 more than once, and there are already three known mutations.

@Henry2326 has been posting about the mutations - there are more than 3.

The vast preponderance of the evidence is that it's only a tiny handful of people who have their disease reactivate. Those people are typically much lower in the necessary antibodies and probably had a mild to asymptomatic case (this is true for many viruses). If we can get antibody testing going, we could warn those people. It's also my understand that, so far, this virus is not behaving like some viruses and making people sicker the second time.

Source: discussion in the Senate today.

Also from Senate: public health authorities haven't decided whether to test the vaccine on children...
 
  • #254
Iowa news today:May 12: 18 additional COVID-19 deaths in Iowa, 539 more cases reported by state 539 new confirmed cases (reported yesterday from 12:00 a.m.-11:59 p.m. and sadly 18 more have passed away. We now have a total of 12,912 confirmed cases and 289 have passed away. 5,615 or 43.5% have recovered.
Metro businesses prepare to reopen in anticipation of Reynolds' announcement
Reynolds to detail easing of COVID-19 restrictions at 11:30 briefing Usually her conference is at 11:00 a.m. so I wonder why it is pushed back to 11:30 a.m. IMO-I hope it is because she is reconsidering some of the new openings she is going to announce today.
 
  • #255
Restaurants are able to get gloves. Try calling a small one and see if they'll let you buy some.

Yesterday was an errand running day and tomorrow will be the same. Sigh. I dread those days.

We had to go to the bank yesterday (drive thru only of course). My husband about fainted when the bank teller wiped her nose with her hand and then used that hand to put the deposit slip in the envelope and hand it back to him.

We also delivered some supplies to the homeless shelter--shelf stable things. We were just the go between. A friend sent the supplies to us and asked us to give to those in need. Anyway, I was pleased that the three people that helped me unload the boxes all had gloves and masks on. I used my last remaining pair of gloves. Going to search the internet today to see if I can find some more.
 
  • #256
Sadly, they don't come off of a ventilator and resume life like it was before they got sick.
Most need additional care for weeks or possibly months.

Some people spend a couple of weeks in the ICU, then two to three days on a medical/surgical ward. Other people take another week or two to regain some strength. Some will go to an acute rehabilitation facility to get rehab three times a day. Others can go to a skilled nursing facility, where they’ll get rehab over a couple of months and then go home.
What Does Recovery From COVID-19 Look Like? It Depends. A Pulmonologist Explains.

This information needs to be more prominent in the news to ensure that people who attend covid-19 parties to get the virus understand what they're risking.
 
  • #257
That is correct. Avoiding healthcare overrun. For the most part, the lockdown does not save lives, other than those saved by not getting proper care due to overcrowding. I think most people miss the point that the lockdown just spreads infections etc down the line.

Another point (IMO): greater than 90% of deaths are not a result of government action or non-action, but a result of the coronavirus. We are just controlling the timeline. At a cataclysmic economic cost.

But the lockdown will save lives, because as the pandemic continues, doctors will learn more about the disease and what treatments do and don't help, and hopefully there will be a vaccine down the line. If you can delay people getting the disease until there are treatments or vaccines, you definitely will save lives.
 
  • #258
Oops. Not smart. Can’t really trust coworkers not to; at minimum gossip about your secrets OR just straight out throw you under the bus (during a pandemic situation or otherwise really)
Employers opening up will probably have to determine how to deal with the below situation:

An employee chooses to stay on furlough due to "safety concerns". That employee stupidly texts a "back to work" coworker: I'm liking all this extra unemployment, how long do you think I can keep getting this?

Receiver of stupid text forwards it to boss. :)

Our guidance is saying that the employer needs to have documentation about the "sickness" if they aren't in one of the categories - since FL is having such problems with workers even getting unemployment - I'm not sure how this will affect us - also, the SBA is still formulating forgiveness of the PPP - in light of workers refusing to return to work and how that refusal affects the FTE formula for 75% payroll costs. It's a mess IMO.
 
  • #259
Everything I’ve found says high school degree or equivalent.

CONTACT TRACER JOB QUALIFICATIONS


Applicants are required to have a high school diploma or equivalent and the ability to speak, read and write in English, the posting said. Critical thinking and good judgment are required and the ability to speak two or more languages is a plus.

The company is also looking for people who can empathize with “distressed individuals” and possess excellent interpersonal skills and the “ability to interact professionally with culturally diverse individuals during a time of crisis and distress,” according to Partners in Health.

Applicants should have either a PC with Windows 10 or a Mac with Apple OS X 10.13, the posting said. A headset is preferred.


Read more here: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article242122121.html#storylink=cpy

Do I need experience? What skills are required?
Applicants for contact tracer positions don't need a background in health care, but strong interpersonal skills and empathy are musts, experts said. At least having an interest in public health also goes a long way. Call center employees often make successful "disease detectives," as contact tracers are also known.

"The perception that they need to be physicians or doctorate-level epidemiologists is not accurate at all. They should have an interest in public health and be comfortable with medical terminology. But essentially, if you are comfortable talking to people, answering questions and gathering information, you can do it," Coyle said.

Lost your job? Consider becoming a "contact tracer" - CBS News

Contact tracers will have to make phone calls to those who have been infected to interview them about with whom they’ve been in close contact. This will have to be done in a compassionate and sensitive way that protects the privacy of everyone involved.

Contact tracers will have to go through an extensive training process ahead of time and must have graduated high school.

How to apply to be a COVID-19 contact tracer in Louisiana

That's a really great job announcement for a contact tracer. And while they will technically accept any HS grad, the additional qualification are going to tend to exclude many high school grades - and of course, they're going to get lots of people with AA's and BA's, who have more ability to demonstrate those skills and may have taken classes in sociology or anthropology, each with field components - but young people who are thinking of jobs in journalism or social work or CPS...would really benefit from this training and experience.

Some of them won't get through the training, but the ones who do will learn so much. I think a lot of people think it's a risky job, but with PPE and proper techniques, it really isn't.

Any way, hats off to LA for such a thorough job description.
 
  • #260
I have gloves. When I have to go into a store (that is very seldom) I wear a mask and two bread sacks( the kind I use to make my kids wear to pick up dog poop in the back yard) on my arms and hands. I get all the "social distancing" I desire that way. People look at me with that mask and those "bread sack gloves" and think " I ain't getting anywhere near that crazy old man."....It works...LOL !.....moo

I like the creative idea of the bread sacks as gloves, if we don't have gloves. Will try something similar to save on gloves and for when I run out.
 
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