Coronavirus COVID-19 - Global Health Pandemic #72

[Tippy Lynn]

But a huge part of being able to be accountable for our own actions and health and to stay up to date on facts is having those facts and not having information be politicized.

And public health is rarely dependent on personal accountability. Public health is guaranteed by sound policies and laws implemented that encourage or compel people to follow safe/sanitary practices.

Without such sound policies and laws we have had:

1. Legal child abuse.
2. Deaths on the road due to no drunk driving laws.
3. Deaths due to no seatbelt or child car seat laws.
4. Child labor.
5. Horrifically dangerous workplace conditions in factories.
6. Unsanitary conditions in meat packing plants and other food-related industries.
7. No mandated accurate labeling of food ingredients.
8. Legal dumping of chemicals in water ways and around residences.
9. No poison warnings on dangerous household chemicals.
10. Playgrounds with hard packed surfaces and super high slides (I loved those, BTW).
11. Dams that are allowed to crack and fall into disrepair, causing the deaths of thousands and destruction of entire towns.

Etc. etc.

Respectfully, to suggest that public health and safety should be dependent on individual, personal accountability seems shortsighted to me, and somewhat naive about human nature and how hard it is to get all humans to take care of themselves and protect one another. Not always due to selfishness or greed but also simply ignorance. (And I don’t mean stupidity).

I will give you a case in point about such ignorance.

I was persuaded to some degree, in the past, by anti-vaxxer arguments and anecdote. I watched a bunch of videos of parents showing kids before and after vaccines and how their autism suddenly appeared. It impacts me. But I remember a poster telling me “you’re not understanding the difference between anecdote and scientific research”.

I argued that I understood the difference but there was so much anectodal evidence.

The poster was patient with me and polite but I remained convinced that there could be some connection between autism and vaccines due to possibly constant triggering of small bodies’ immune systems.

But then I read the research as the poster suggested. And kept reading it. It was a lot. Tons of studies. I looked up the authors of the studies to see if there could be any influence. I did my work, expecting to find at least some evidence that vaccines could cause autism.

I was wrong. I had been ignorant. I’m not stupid. I just didn’t have the information necessary to understanding the issue. It’s a good thing I didn’t have little kids who could’ve been affected, at the time I was buying into the anti-vaxxer argument.

How many people are going to spend hours, days, researching an issue? Should public health be dependent on the wisdom of people in their 20’s who are focused on school, establishing a career and socializing? Or people in their 30’s exhausted from raising kids and working their tails off? How about older people who like to play bingo and square dance and talk about their health problems? Should public health be dependent on their personal accountability?

How many Americans are going to be able to do the work necessary to understanding the complexities of health and safety without serious government guidance?

When my health and welfare is dependent on the actions of those around me, I don’t want to leave it up to individualism. I want sound policies guiding the public.

Regardless of what others are doing, I’m confident I’m doing the best I can under the circumstances. My healthcare team, my sources and my decisions are what I’m going with. That’s all I’m saying.

 

[gitana1]

What are things like out in public? Are people terrified and staying 20 feet apart, or are they going about like everything is normal? Are there ambulances everywhere? In AZ we were in the national (and international) spotlight for a while, but everything seemed very normal around town. About the only reminder that anything is different is that at least once, in every parking lot, I hear someone saying "oh, <blank>, I forgot a mask," as they trudge back their vehicle. It's a very strange disconnect between what I read and what I see, and wonder if it's like that everywhere.

You’ve brought up this “are there ambulances everywhere” argument before. I don’t think you’re understanding how this works.

In none of the nations where COVID19 swamped the systems were there ambulances everywhere or dead bodies on the street. That is not the guide for whether we are experiencing a pandemic or health care catastrophe.

Look at how crowded the hospitals are. How long it takes people to recover.

People don’t need to be “terrified” and staying 20 feet apart for this to be a health catastrophe. It is one. The only officials to assert that this is no big deal are those with massive investment in stocks or a belief in demon semen.

 

[beatrixpotter]

I hope the sad occasion of his death results in more people taking the virus seriously, and perhaps changing some minds about masks and social distancing ..

I just saw a bunch of people on social media trying to argue in contradiction of Herman Cain's own family and people who speak for them that he died of his cancer he'd had years before. The need to deny deny deny is insane. These people must be scared witless if the only thing they can resort to is to constantly tell themselves it's all lies.

 

[MrX]

I see a lot of folks try to enter stores with no mask, be turned away and express themselves rudely. That is very common. Lots of stories of small business workers having to deal with aggressive and mean folks , and many have police standing outside as well.

And then there are a few cases where someone was able to video the chaos and their videos go viral.

One case in Jax, had a woman who had just finished her chemo treatment, who started to video a very aggressive woman giving store folks a very hard time in a box store........ the woman came over and spit on her. Now that was a big shaming episode!

That's terrible. My wife says she sees some people without masks, but haven't encountered any. Outside of the initial lock down protests, people here have been pretty civilized. There was a story that went viral a month ago about a woman who tore down a mask display at Target, and I see today that she issued an apology.

 

[neesaki]

I don't think that they will. Some are already on social media denying that he died of the virus.

I know someone who emailed all of his business contacts saying if they required him to wear a mask he would no longer do business with them. Go figure. SMH

 

[gitana1]

Regardless of what others are doing, I’m confident I’m doing the best I can under the circumstances. My healthcare team, my sources and my decisions are what I’m going with. That’s all I’m saying.

Of course. You’re also educated and informed. Not everyone is nor can they afford to be.

 

[gitana1]

That's terrible. My wife says she sees some people without masks, but haven't encountered any. Outside of the initial lock down protests, people here have been pretty civilized. There was a story that went viral a month ago about a woman who tore down a mask display at Target, and I see today that she issued an apology.

Yes. She has a serious mental illness too, from what I understand.

 

[gitana1]

Herman Cain doesn't make it.

https://twitter.com/THEHermanCain/status/1288843301722890240

I really thought he was going to survive. It’s pretty horrible. Poor guy.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Me, too. Deeply saddened by the loss of Mr. Cain. He was always so upbeat and positive. A great loss to our country. I am also sad for his dedicated and hard working staff for their loss. Especially now that they are mourning while at the same time bracing for the cruelty that has already started online. May he rest in peace, faithful and devoted servant.

Rbbm

This! I have a relative that worked closely with/for him on his Presidential campaign. The cruelty has started and it’s just mind boggling to me.

 

[gitana1]

Such a waste of resources when those researchers could be directing their work to finding real treatments. All this fuss about HCQ has really derailed the search for a cure.

I don’t think so. People are working hard regardless and lots of studies are taking place.

 

[gitana1]

Rbbm

This! I have a relative that worked closely with/for him on his Presidential campaign. The cruelty has started and it’s just mind boggling to me.

No one should be cruel about the suffering and death of another.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Italy extends state of emergency over coronavirus: Live updates

As to short term memory loss... have the experiences on the Diamond

Princess and other cruise ships been forgotten?....

<respectfully snipped>

I haven't forgotten. Coincidentally, I had a call from a Princess sales agent last week. DH and I have taken 21 cruises with Princess over the last 18 years, most recently in January of this year. We didn't pay too much attention to news during our cruise but learned about COVID spreading rapidly as soon as we were back in Detroit. It was distressing to learn about the fate of passengers aboard Diamond Princess as well as other cruise ships that were hit with numerous cases of the deadly virus. We were glad to be home and have no plans to fly or cruise any time in the foreseeable future.

The Princess sales agent reminded me that we had made a "future cruise deposit" (refundable) that entitles us to certain privileges if we book a cruise within a two-year time frame. I told the agent that I would not request a refund at this juncture but that it was highly unlikely that we would book a cruise in the next 18 months. I won't say "never", but a cruise ship would be the last place I'd want to be during a pandemic. We've been on ships with outbreaks of Norovirus, and it isn't pretty. I'm grateful for the many travel opportunities that DH and I have experienced, and there were other trips we've considered when DH retires at the end of this year. COVID may very well have squelched the fulfillment of our bucket list plans, but we will be content to stay close to home, stay safe, and be well.

 

[gitana1]

He survived cancer after vigorous treatment in 2006 and they are now blaming that.

Which is accurate. Cancer survivors are at greater risk of serious complications from the virus.

Of course he’d still be here if not for the virus.

I hear people making the argument - “they’re calling any death a COVID19 death if the person tested positive.”

Well, here’s the thing. When someone dies of cancer, their heart fails. Or their lungs fail. Or they die of pneumonia related to a lowered immune system. But we don’t say, “five year old cancer patient died of heart failure.” We say, “Five year old cancer patient died after a long battle with the disease.”

But for the disease, her heart wouldn’t have failed.

 

[Tadpole12]

I don't think that they will. Some are already on social media denying that he died of the virus.

Oh ya, that's the pattern.

 

[beatrixpotter]

Johns Hopkins researchers urge US to 'reset' coronavirus approach

The scientists' policy brief said that while the US had managed to bring down cases in May by implementing stringent stay-at-home orders, the current spike in infections was overwhelming hospitals in many parts of the country and "stressing many sectors of society, from business to education to healthcare".

Hospitalisation rates for COVID-19 in most states now match or exceed numbers seen in New York City, the previous epicentre of the outbreak in the country during the peak months of March and April.

"Unlike many countries in the world, the United States is not currently on course to get control of this epidemic. It's time to reset," the brief said, outlining 10 actions required to stem the virus's spread.

Chief among them was a recommendation for the universal use of masks, physical distancing, hand hygiene and avoidance of large gatherings.

Without having these measures in place, it will be difficult to maintain control of outbreaks or turn the corner on an outbreak that is accelerating," the brief said.

"COVID-19 has reached a point in the United States where these protective actions should no longer be called a matter of individual choice, but measures of societal responsibility."

Other recommendations included bolstering supplies of personal protective gear and diagnostic testing kits at healthcare facilities. The scientists also called for better analyses of epidemiological data and scaling up contact tracing across the country.

"The coronavirus pandemic is the most serious epidemic threat to the United States in a century," the brief said.

"The United States has reached a critical point in the outbreak trajectory, and serious consideration needs to be given to ways in which the response can be improved. The time is now to move forward to reduce transmission and save lives."

The brief echoes the advice of many health experts who say the US outbreak could be brought under greater control if guidelines to maintain physical distancing and wear masks in public were enforced nationwide.

Experts meanwhile say the new surge in cases is hampering the country's economic recovery effort.

"We have seen some signs in recent weeks that the increase in virus cases and the renewed measures to control it are starting to weigh on economic activity," the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell, said on Wednesday.

That kind of sounds like too little too late to me. When I hear reset I think lock down and bring the actual infection rate to a drastically lower baseline. I can't imagine the suggestions above are truly enough at this point.

 

[musicaljoke]

Have the other studies been linked already? I am only aware of one other so far.

You might be interested in this link about current treatments for patients with CoVid published by the BC Centre for Disease Control. The BC Centre for Disease Control is one of the most highly regarded medical centres in the world. I think the article was just updated today and shows a few very current links.

British Columbia has been very successful in their efforts to control CoVid in that province.

Treatments

 

[gitana1]

How about this? How about if a recently retired chemist and physician agrees with DeWine? Are they incapable of understanding the pandemic and science with all of us here? I tend to agree with them and DeWine. Do you think that DeWine isn't receiving recommendations from the Ohio Health Department and many physicians? DeWine is my governor and I'm proud of how he's handled COVID in my state. Please stop badmouthing him. Your opinion of him is not a fact. JMO.

Who makes up the board? Are they doctors or pharmacists?

 

[Sundog]

I just saw a bunch of people on social media trying to argue in contradiction of Herman Cain's own family and people who speak for them that he died of his cancer he'd had years before. The need to deny deny deny is insane. These people must be scared witless if the only thing they can resort to is to constantly tell themselves it's all lies.

I'm sure that his cancer issue contributed to the COVID complications, and people will all mourn in their own way. I hold no animosity toward them for their views, and don't feel that I have to be right in mine. Empathy is important at times like this.

 

[Sundog]

I know someone who emailed all of his business contacts saying if they required him to wear a mask he would no longer do business with them. Go figure. SMH

Link please?

 

[tresir2012]

But a huge part of being able to be accountable for our own actions and health and to stay up to date on facts is having those facts and not having information be politicized.

And public health is rarely dependent on personal accountability. Public health is guaranteed by sound policies and laws implemented that encourage or compel people to follow safe/sanitary practices.

Without such sound policies and laws we have had:

1. Legal child abuse.
2. Deaths on the road due to no drunk driving laws.
3. Deaths due to no seatbelt or child car seat laws.
4. Child labor.
5. Horrifically dangerous workplace conditions in factories.
6. Unsanitary conditions in meat packing plants and other food-related industries.
7. No mandated accurate labeling of food ingredients.
8. Legal dumping of chemicals in water ways and around residences.
9. No poison warnings on dangerous household chemicals.
10. Playgrounds with hard packed surfaces and super high slides (I loved those, BTW).
11. Dams that are allowed to crack and fall into disrepair, causing the deaths of thousands and destruction of entire towns.

Etc. etc.

Respectfully, to suggest that public health and safety should be dependent on individual, personal accountability seems shortsighted to me, and somewhat naive about human nature and how hard it is to get all humans to take care of themselves and protect one another. Not always due to selfishness or greed but also simply ignorance. (And I don’t mean stupidity).

I will give you a case in point about such ignorance.

I was persuaded to some degree, in the past, by anti-vaxxer arguments and anecdote. I watched a bunch of videos of parents showing kids before and after vaccines and how their autism suddenly appeared. It impacts me. But I remember a poster telling me “you’re not understanding the difference between anecdote and scientific research”.

I argued that I understood the difference but there was so much anectodal evidence.

The poster was patient with me and polite but I remained convinced that there could be some connection between autism and vaccines due to possibly constant triggering of small bodies’ immune systems.

But then I read the research as the poster suggested. And kept reading it. It was a lot. Tons of studies. I looked up the authors of the studies to see if there could be any influence. I did my work, expecting to find at least some evidence that vaccines could cause autism.

I was wrong. I had been ignorant. I’m not stupid. I just didn’t have the information necessary to understanding the issue. It’s a good thing I didn’t have little kids who could’ve been affected, at the time I was buying into the anti-vaxxer argument.

How many people are going to spend hours, days, researching an issue? Should public health be dependent on the wisdom of people in their 20’s who are focused on school, establishing a career and socializing? Or people in their 30’s exhausted from raising kids and working their tails off? How about older people who like to play bingo and square dance and talk about their health problems? Should public health be dependent on their personal accountability?

How many Americans are going to be able to do the work necessary to understanding the complexities of health and safety without serious government guidance?

When my health and welfare is dependent on the actions of those around me, I don’t want to leave it up to individualism. I want sound policies guiding the public.

It is right to expect sound policies and the vaccines for babies are a very good point. Many years ago my first baby was due to have his first vaccine (I think it was whooping cough). They said did he have any allergies as it was not recommended if he had any. Well with a 6 month old baby, its difficult. I knew he had eczema (his asthma had not become apparent at that early age) so I knew he was allergic to something so I explained that. The nurse said if I thought that was due to allergy then it was my decision. So I declined. It was the same for the measles vaccine too. He had all the other vaccines. He was fine with the individual vaccines no problems at all. I really don't know why they asked the allergy question all those years ago but I was given the choice for myself to make. When it is personal health we should be able to make informed decisions.