Coronavirus COVID-19 - Global Health Pandemic #84

[ilovewings]

I. Totally. Agree.

And there's research to support your point - people who just don't care...well, that's another way to say "irresponsible" or "lacking empathy." In some nations (cf Vietnam for a really good example) caring for others is a way of life.

My colleagues and I talk about how, if this were WW2, we'd be screwed. Would people turn out their lights at night as directed? I say many would not.

I think mask compliance in California is a bit higher, especially in the fire areas, for a few reasons. People got used to wearing them when the air quality got bad (and it hasn't been good in many places this summer). And people already had them on hand.

BUT, we've got entire counties defying all mask orders. If you look at that NY Times daily map of where CV cases are rising, you can see right away where California's problem is (and, well, many of those places have had fires, so I don't know what to tell you).

I don't like wearing a mask. But I dislike a future of mostly online learning for my grandkids even more. I dislike not being able to travel and I feel so badly for all the jobs lost - mostly entry level positions and the fact that new jobs are not in areas where job seekers want them to be (healthcare is not appealing to many people).

America is symbolized by its leadership and its spoken commitments. I think it has to start there. Most Californians like Gavin, think he's a unifying force (and the ones who don't - you guessed it, they won't wear masks as a kind of protest).

Still, having said that, even the most mask-skeptical parts of California are doing better than some other entire states. I think it's because the mask-refusniks are in a substantial minority and everyone side-eyes them. I try to be understanding (I don't expect surfers near the ocean to wear a mask, even if they are in a parking lot - but I do expect them to stay 10 feet away from me...)

During WWII we had great leadership: that is the essence of all things including cooperation from the citizens. i will say no more.

 

[ilovewings]

Speaking of WWII:



It was a different world back in the 1940’s. People were more willing to sacrifice for the greater good and there wasn’t the emphasis on “freedom” we’ve had since my baby boomer generation came of age in the ‘60’s. BUT there was strong leadership at the very top and, as your Rosie the Riveter poster illustrates, there was an excellent campaign of public service announcements educating the citizens. People will “follow the leader” if they understand why their sacrifices are a necessary and a life-saving civic duty.

I remain convinced that if government leaders had stepped up right away and modeled appropriate healthy behavior like masks, instituted a massive and pervasive PSA campaign, and supported governors’ efforts to contain the virus it would have made a world of difference in how citizens view the pandemic in the U.S. (and in the number of cases and deaths). Unfortunately, the opposite happened. There is no chance of a redo now, and we are stuck with a large minority of citizens who view masks as a sign of “weakness.” Realistically, the rest of us are on our own in our efforts to educate ourselves, as we do on this thread, and stay safe.
JMO

It is all about leadership -- people need guidance and if they have proper guidance , ,most of them will follow the leader so to speak.

 

[ilovewings]

Depending on the election, a lockdown is not out of the question for the US, but I can already foresee the court challenges. When you try to do what's right, not everyone agrees.

I don't see a national lockdown in the US: i think it should depend on the state and the number of cases and spread: even with in the state, only certain areas might come under a lock down.

 

[anneg]

Makes me think of this post on the Hippie Peace Freaks FB page
(Hope this is allowed)

View attachment 268616

I can relate to this.

This could go in the Smiles thread too!

 

[10ofRods]

I think the message of why we should wear masks has been wrong: I have said this before: the emphasis has been on protecting others. since most people are selfish, they need a reason to protect themselves as well. So when people were advised to wear a mask they should have been told it protects them as well. That message came out later, but by then no one was listening. I think there should have been education as well with visuals as we have seen those visuals, but not everybody has, showing when you cough or sneeze and how far the droplets travel without a mask and then with one. A picture is worth 1000 words.

Oh - absolutely. I agree. Just like cigarette smoking. Remember all those scary ads with pictures of black lungs or people in hospital with tracheotomies who had to speak with mechanical means?

Masks should have been "sold" to the public by warning everyone about both the lethal and non-lethal aspects of CoVid. I have yet to meet very many people - except here on WS - that know that there are long haulers, that CoVid has lasting negative health effects, even for the young. Oxford University has a researcher who just compiled some data on the various long term effects - it's very sobering. And the non-symptomatic are likely to have some of them.

 

[ilovewings]

Oh - absolutely. I agree. Just like cigarette smoking. Remember all those scary ads with pictures of black lungs or people in hospital with tracheotomies who had to speak with mechanical means?

Masks should have been "sold" to the public by warning everyone about both the lethal and non-lethal aspects of CoVid. I have yet to meet very many people - except here on WS - that know that there are long haulers, that CoVid has lasting negative health effects, even for the young. Oxford University has a researcher who just compiled some data on the various long term effects - it's very sobering. And the non-symptomatic are likely to have some of them.

Most people are clueless about long-haulers: i think most people view Covid as "like the flu" in the sense they believe it is respiratory and then you get over it. Sigh

 

[10ofRods]

good point. thanks. I have meant justifiably disgruntled..... they want to keep their jobs............

I woke up this morning and decided that if I were a Disney worker, I'd be outraged, livid and so disappointed. They are so justifiably angry. And I'd be really angry at DeSantis for making it easier for them. I hope they all vote in the next election for governor. Sorry if I was being picky about words, the whole Disney thing is so upsetting to me, I'm a huge Disney fan. My birthday was meant to be celebrated at Disneyland this year - as it has been on most of my major birthdays, but of course that didn't happen. By now, I wonder if I'll ever get to go again.

(Although...it doesn't seem to be the patrons getting CoVid, it's the poor employees who have to work inside, sometimes in fairly confined areas, with other coworkers, most of them young, in a state with very high CoVid rates).

Orange County, California is a place with higher rates than much of California. That didn't have to be, but OC is rife with CoVid deniers and people who won't wear masks. It's hurting their economy, but apparently they don't see the connection.

 

[ilovewings]

I'm really not sure. I know that when the first surgeon learned that washing his hands before surgery decreased infections and deaths in patients, other surgeons would not believe him or change their ways (this was in the mid 19th century - it would be decades before the practice became widespread).

Even today, not all healthcare workers or food service workers wash their hands frequently. In fact, observational studies in public restrooms shows that 30-50% of people do not wash their hands after using the toilet. I've done such a study myself (at a college) and it was 50% non-washers during the break times that I was observing. Yikes.

Do people even know what a virus really is? My students learn about very small things (like RNA and DNA) and I think it helps reinforce their mask-wearing behavior, but the reason most of them say that they wear them every time they go outside their house is that they "don't want to kill a family member." So, it's compassion.

I don't think you can make someone else compassion. And some people really don't care about anyone or perhaps they don't live with anyone they care about.

I think that if we had general public education (you know, good old television like back in the days before netflix and youtube became the main things many people watch) and we could have frequently public announcements prior to flu season, we would have been in a position to alert everyone that this was not the flu, but something worse. With pictures and brief snippets of different aged people who have survived CoVid but don't feel so well...how it affects athletic performance...how the overweight and obese are more vulnerable...all of that...

it might have made a difference. But it would have to be like old style PSA's such that people could not avoid hearing the messages. The grocery store worker mentioned above who was ranting about having to wear a mask might have benefitted from the store having a couple of monitors with PSA's running constantly...right near his register. Maybe it does take policy to make people do things, in the end. It would be weird for people to publicly flaunt or denounce masks, though, if everyone was constantly inundated with information and the actual numbers in their area.

Also - do you all think it would have helped if each local area's numbers were made hard to miss? Front page of newspaper? On TV. In stores via monitors, etc? And if encouragement was given that...some day it will end? Because while vaccines are not perfect and may not prevent every case of CoVId, vaccines should certainly make CoVid much much less deadly in all but the very elderly (85+).

I am so surprised when I go around and read major papers in various states, that in many states (the ones with rapidly rising rates) there is virtually no front page news about that fact.

When I watch cable TV and docs come on and say the same thing over and over about masks, social distancing and hand washing, I am thinking it is repetitive and uninspiring. I so agree with you about all the ways you pointed out to help people understand why doing these things are so important-and how they help protect us all, including the person you are trying to convince. The horse however, left the barn a long time ago and it is way too late now to make any inroads into the hard stances so many people have taken against masks, etc. IMO.

 

[Sprockett7701]

Workers Reveal Disney Is Covering Up Its COVID Cases



Is it legal under HIPPA for Disney to give health information of employee's to the union?

Workers Reveal Disney Is Covering Up Its COVID Cases

Don’t global pandemic conditions outweigh the need for HIPPA in this situation...isn’t it more important to be to contact tracing and trying to stem the flow at this point?

 

[Sprockett7701]

Also I’m really not getting the whole mask ‘thing’...

I just think back to my childhood and now what I catch my self saying to my kids...if so and so told you to jump off a cliff without a parachute ( or add your own regional variant) would you? And of course, the sane answer is no, of course I wouldn’t...

But we all know a parachute is still not a guarantee when jumping off a cliff...just like masks.

Maybe they do, maybe they don’t help, but even if you have a slight chance of improving your chances of not catching it wouldn’t you want to grab that chance with both hands and embrace it?!

Obviously, exempting those who have medical issues with wearing them...

And a big ole heap of MOO IMO

 

[10ofRods]

You make excellent points! Now that the virus has spread to the extent it has, many of us know someone who has been infected and died. For me, that someone is the uncle of a friend. I was in line at the self-checkout in Walmart (I avoid the checker check-out like the plague.) a burly guy behind me who was wearing a mask was saying he thinks it's all a hoax to the lady behind him. I turned and said my friend's uncle died and I told him his name. He was very nice about it and we chatted briefly about how he hadn't known anyone who knew anyone who died--up to that point.

Maybe it made a difference, maybe it didn't, but I think being kind and educating is our only hope.

I keep seeing meanness and name-calling and I think that only works against the goal of preventing deaths. When we call people "no-maskers," "anti-maskers," or "covid-deniers," or worse, we aren't convincing anyone to stay safe, we're just putting them in a postion where they're going to dig in their heels all the more.

What you're doing is right, in my opinion. It may not work every time, or even very often, but if being kind and encouraging someone to be safe keeps just one infected person from infecting others, you may have saved countless lives!

If you're right, then we're doomed to have CoVid in the US forever. The chances of all these people running into someone at the check-out stand (or in any other circumstance) where they have a brief conversation and their attitude changes are, IMO, very low. By now, surely almost everyone in North Dakota has heard of someone dying (their rates are brutal right now).

But it's my understanding that there's no statewide mask mandate and you can see how that's working out:

ND SMART RESTART Protocols

I think you're really discounting the fact that we need a term to describe people, like one of my cousins, who went all ballistic about mask requirements, calling people who wore them cowards, weak, stupid etc (in a FB post and in real life). She has a 94 year old grandmother. Her father just got out of the hospital after almost dying. She herself has been in the hospital 3X in the last 6 months (surgeries following a bad car accident). She is the single mother of a boy. She's supposedly training to be an EMT.

But she does not want to wear a mask and does so only when it suits her and her ideas. She is furious that she was made to wear a mask in some store and that she has to wear one at school (!) She absolutely believes that if she gets COVid (or her son does) that they will be fine. Her father survived it, after all (he's 70).

This, from a woman, who gets hysterical when her son has an asthma attack and she has forgotten to pick up his meds. I just don't get it. But she is totally in favor of CoVid just running its course (she says "like Sweden") and she is open about her disdain for those of us who do wear masks. Needless to say, her own brother (who is very high risk for various reasons) has to avoid her, as you can't talk to her about any of this without her getting very overwrought (the rest of us are calm enough, it's not like she's the only person we encounter who takes this view - she's just been super vocal about it).

She's anti-mask, she's going to vote based on her anti-mask ideas (it's her single most important issue right now, along with ending all mitigation measures) and she truly believes this is a Constitutional issue.

I will be very surprised if she makes it as an EMT, personally. I feel it's important to warn the rest of the family about her ideas, just in case they are thinking of hanging out with her - so what should I say? I’ve kind of let it go. Should I just ignore it and give her a hug when I see her? (I do love her). Should I not tell my own daughters that if she shows up (she's been known to just pop in to see us - a couple of states away), they need to be aware of her stance? There's a big difference between "just not wearing a mask all the time" (like this woman's dad) and being anti-mask (which she is).

 

[HongKongPhooey]

So, it's happened even sooner than I thought. From midnight tonight, Ireland will be the first EU country to return to a full national lockdown for six weeks. Only essential services to remain open and everyone to stay within 5km of home, with certain essential travel and compassionate exceptions.

Ireland placed on Level 5 of the Plan for Living with COVID-19

Level 5 lockdown: Everything you need to know about the new Covid laws and fines for travel and house parties

Blimey Mo. How do you feel about that?

 

[Warwick1991]

If you're right, then we're doomed to have CoVid in the US forever. The chances of all these people running into someone at the check-out stand (or in any other circumstance) where they have a brief conversation and their attitude changes are, IMO, very low. By now, surely almost everyone in North Dakota has heard of someone dying (their rates are brutal right now).

But it's my understanding that there's no statewide mask mandate and you can see how that's working out:

ND SMART RESTART Protocols

I think you're really discounting the fact that we need a term to describe people, like one of my cousins, who went all ballistic about mask requirements, calling people who wore them cowards, weak, stupid etc (in a FB post and in real life). She has a 94 year old grandmother. Her father just got out of the hospital after almost dying. She herself has been in the hospital 3X in the last 6 months (surgeries following a bad car accident). She is the single mother of a boy. She's supposedly training to be an EMT.

But she does not want to wear a mask and does so only when it suits her and her ideas. She is furious that she was made to wear a mask in some store and that she has to wear one at school (!) She absolutely believes that if she gets COVid (or her son does) that they will be fine. Her father survived it, after all (he's 70).

This, from a woman, who gets hysterical when her son has an asthma attack and she has forgotten to pick up his meds. I just don't get it. But she is totally in favor of CoVid just running its course (she says "like Sweden") and she is open about her disdain for those of us who do wear masks. Needless to say, her own brother (who is very high risk for various reasons) has to avoid her, as you can't talk to her about any of this without her getting very overwrought (the rest of us are calm enough, it's not like she's the only person we encounter who takes this view - she's just been super vocal about it).

She's anti-mask, she's going to vote based on her anti-mask ideas (it's her single most important issue right now, along with ending all mitigation measures) and she truly believes this is a Constitutional issue. Her second issue is to get rid of gun control and to have open carry throughout the US.

I will be very surprised if she makes it as an EMT, personally. I feel it's important to warn the rest of the family about her ideas, just in case they are thinking of hanging out with her - so what should I say? Should I just ignore it and give her a hug when I see her? (I do love her). Should I not tell my own daughters that if she shows up (she's been known to just pop in to see us - a couple of states away), they need to be aware of her stance? There's a big difference between "just not wearing a mask all the time" (like this woman's dad) and being anti-mask (which she is).

I have a cousin in Arizona who is anti-mask. She posts her ideas about this regularly on Facebook, and has said that anyone who challenges her views about masks is no longer her friend. She has many relatives who are either old or have major risk factors. Luckily, I don't interact her with her because I'm in Florida. I had a discussion about her with another cousin in the Northwest, and he decided to cut off his interactions with her, including online. My anti-mask cousin is well-educated, and has no excuses. I've decided to cut off interactions with her as well. I have asthma, and am over 60. She knows this and doesn't care. Ethically, I think I must tell other relatives so they can make the choice as to how to protect themselves.

 

[MimosaMornings]

To the public, these are just numbers: abstractions and not real human beings.

Unless you are tripping over dead people in the street I doubt you will get some of these peoples attention.
Maybe if Instagram shuts down for a week you might get their attention.

 

[MimosaMornings]

I have a cousin in Arizona who is anti-mask. She posts her ideas about this regularly on Facebook, and has said that anyone who challenges her views about masks is no longer her friend. She has many relatives who are either old or have major risk factors. Luckily, I don't interact her with her because I'm in Florida. I had a discussion about her with another cousin in the Northwest, and he decided to cut off his interactions with her, including online. My anti-mask cousin is well-educated, and has no excuses. I've decided to cut off interactions with her as well. I have asthma, and am over 60. She knows this and doesn't care. Ethically, I think I must tell other relatives so they can make the choice as to how to protect themselves.

What are her reasons? A hoax? Only concern for herself? She doesn’t care if she ever sees other family members again? That’s an aggressive reaction to cut people off.

 

[Warwick1991]

What are her reasons? A hoax? Only concern for herself? She doesn’t care if she ever sees other family members again? That’s an aggressive reaction to cut people off.

I'm not completely certain. She doesn't claim it's a hoax... She has a hard line stance about what government can order individuals to do.. Ultimately it is completely self-interested, as it is for those who militantly oppose masks.

 

[BUF]

Per CNN: Astravenica volunteer dies, no plans to stop. This person is in Brazil and died on Monday. Don’t know if they got the real vaccine or a placebo.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Don’t global pandemic conditions outweigh the need for HIPPA in this situation...isn’t it more important to be to contact tracing and trying to stem the flow at this point?

I'm not sure if HIPPA applies to unions in this circumstance. Do we know that contact tracing wasn't done in the Disney cases?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Per CNN: Astravenica volunteer dies, no plans to stop. This person is in Brazil and died on Monday. Don’t know if they got the real vaccine or a placebo.

Maybe the vaccine killed this person. That sure will scare many who are already afraid of a Covid vaccine plus those who believe it's safe. JMO

 

[24Roses]

Iowa news today: As of 10:00-11:00 a.m. today, we had 1,276 new confirmed cases for a total of 109,573 confirmed cases of which 84,623 had recovered (+1,160). There are 31 new reports of those who had passed for a total of 1,579; IMO this is over several days not in 24 hrs. as the news states, but it could be a new daily record as far as being reported. 90 more were hospitalized in the last 24 hrs. for a total of 534 (new daily record). There are 24,950 active positive cases. Oct. 21: Record-high 31 more COVID-19 related deaths in 24 hours, 90 more hospitalizations
Iowa COVID-19 Information
Iowa reports 31 additional deaths, record COVID-19 hospitalizations
UIHC workers ask state leaders to "step up" as COVID-19 hospitalizations continue rising
Gov. Reynolds stands by use of virus aid for IT project
Around half of Iowa’s counties seeing high community spread of COVID-19
Vice President at Mercy Medical in Cedar Rapids discusses impact of rising hospitalizations in Iowa