Coronavirus COVID-19 - Global Health Pandemic #84

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  • #901
  • #902
  • #903
  • #904
This drives me crazy. Colorado did the same thing— counting only those people who’d tested positive for COVID in death statistics. Purportedly “to make numbers more accurate” but some think the change was made to reassure citizens while making Jittery Politicians look good.

Limiting COVID death stats to people that tested positive is a misleading approach that understates the problem and may mask important trends. That’s because without a positive COVID test, in CO you didn’t die of COVID no-one even if all the facts and common sense point to COVID as COD.

There a slew of reasons a victim may not have been tested:

o testing supply shortages
o no local testing facilities
o financial concerns/no health insurance
o limited mobility/transportation challenges
o reluctance to leave home for fear of catching COVID
o belief that “it’s just a cold”
o asymptomatic until sudden decline.

And is it safe to assume every hospitalized COVID patient is tested? Perhaps a COVID patient arrives at the hospital and isn’t tested because the exhausted staff is confident it’s COVID and immediately starts treatment. Or patient dies in the hospital before being tested and they skip testing the dead guy to try to save someone still alive?

How many people die of COVID without being tested? There’s no way to know for sure but at least we had an idea of magnitude when probable cases were also tracked. Now, we have no clue and no indication if that number starts going up or down. And if for some reason we can no longer test, Colarado’s COVID deaths will immediately drop to zero.

Not sure if this is the case in FL, but here even a positive test is no guarantee a COVID death will be counted. That’s because Powers That Be decided months ago that coroners are to decide whether a COVID-positive person died of the virus or something else. Mucking up statistical data even more with yet another uncontrolled variable

When a COVID positive patient dies, there’s generally no autopsy—the coroner simply reviews patient files. If a patient dies because an underlying condition was aggravated by COVID, the underlying condition may be cited as cause of death. Or not. One coroner may conclude Patient X died of COVID while a different coroner might find the same patient died from an asthma attack, PE, stroke or heart disease. And either is be acceptable because Coroners have been given very little guidance. Personally I think the standard should be “But not for COVID, would this person likely still be alive today?”. And there are no standards because “Who are we [the government] to question a Coroner’s professional opinion?”

I’m sure Coroners will do their level best to get it right, but how many cases could go either way? When faced w/a true toss-up, it’s likely local political pressure will cause many to choose the non-COVID cause of death.
I can't speak for other hospitals, but at my hospital every patient that is admitted is tested whether they are symptomatic or not.
 
  • #905
LA mega church outbreak... Grace Community Church in Sun Valley - estimated attendance 7,000.

An evangelical megachurch in Los Angeles that has defied L.A. County public health orders and held indoor worship services for the last several weeks has been struck with an outbreak of the coronavirus, public health officials confirmed Thursday.

Coronavirus outbreak strikes L.A. megachurch that defied public health orders
 
  • #906
I completely get what you're saying -- I really do -- I just think it's the wrong way to affect the change we need to keep people safe. I know some of the folks who resist wearing mask act out in highly inappropriate ways, but do you really think calling them names will change their hearts and minds? See, I just don't.

I know there have also been people who have physically and verbally assaulted folks for not wearing masks but I'm not sure labeling them is a good idea either.

I don't expect to convince anyone -- just how I feel.

I'm curious how you propose to go about this. Do you go up to people who aren't wearing masks and mention it to them?

I'm more interested in how we persuade larger groups of people (say, college students - because that's where I live and work).

I've never called anyone a name, and you keep saying that some of us have done that. I have not. I do think that some people have specifically stated that not only will they not wear a mask, but that they want others not to do so either - they don't want to be in the presence of mask-wearers.

I think we need a label for this group and I don't think anyone has yet been able to give a method for dealing with them (other than, for example, barring them from entering a space - which is what we are intending to do at the college, but the police are rather concerned about their role in this).

For example, we have a check point to enter campus for the people who must be on campus (athletes, film students who are editing, childcare students, nursing students, lab students). They are required to wear a mask at the checkpoint, answer a few questions and have a temperature check (fairly useless).

Then they go onward. Where they take their masks off, go into the lobby of the library (if they try to get through the turnstile they are turned away, but the lobby is large). Do we call the police on them?

Do we ignore the risks? These are people aged 18-40, mainly. This is the group with the steepest rise in CoVid where I live. 10% will be hospitalized.

Walk up to an individual (as we're passing through these conversational groups with no masks) and offer a mask?

What does this have to do with name calling?

Outside of their presence, we can refer to them, surely, as non-mask wearers. If, like a woman at a CVS drugstore who was filmed by a student of mine, a person decompensates and coughs and spits on the person who asked her to wear a mask, on others standing by (and on the security guard who was hiding behind a store manager, who was at the front of this melée and was the nicest darned person I've ever seen in a situation like that - had clearly had training and a natural gift for calmness), I think calling that women here on websleuths an "anti-masker" (so that we don't have to keep writing out all these details) is appropriate.

If we can't talk about these people and how to shape their behavior, I'm not sure how those of us who actually have to deal with such behavior on the daily are going to train ourselves and develop understanding. It must be nice not to have to deal with such things, but several of us do in fact have to deal with large groups. I do training for law enforcement - and you guessed it - they need training on how to deal with this issue. If I can't use practical information gained from my own experience, news source, journals - and yes, websleuths, I'm not sure where we go from here.

My goals are to prevent first responders from critical illness, but also to inform younger people about the risks they're taking. There are tons of issues where we have to have labels (next it will be "vaccinated" vs "non-vaccinated," as an educator and someone who is very involved in policy at the college, we will surely have to talk about it.

It's not name calling.
 
  • #907
Washington D.C. is currently in Phase 2 of the city's reopening plan, which prohibits gatherings of over 50 people. The city's guidelines also encourage people to wear face coverings both in and outdoors when coming within 6 feet of others.

However, Washington D.C.'s guidelines outline that certain activities, including religious gatherings, are permitted to exceed the capacity limits through an approved local waiver.

It's unclear how the city approves these waivers and whether Feucht's rally this weekend has obtained one.

Thousands expected to gather for religious rally at National Mall this weekend despite D.C. COVID-19 restrictions

An article from the Palm Beach Post about a Florida rally Christian protest concert draws COVID-19 concerns in West Palm Beach - may be paywalled.
To escape county mask and social distancing ordinances, the rally was apparently labeled a “protest.” No masks and no social distancing.
 
  • #908
  • #909
San Francisco family puts giant mask on their house for Halloween

A San Francisco family is winning Halloween with their epic decoration. They put a giant face mask on their house in West Portal.

It covers the "nose" and "mouth" of the house, which is right above the front door. (The homeowner) said ghosts and witches don't feel necessary this year because we are living in the scariest of times. The mask is a simple and powerful way to make that point.
 
  • #910
I can't speak for other hospitals, but at my hospital every patient that is admitted is tested whether they are symptomatic or not.
That’s good to hear. I hope all hospitals follow that protocol. Not being snide, I’m truly curious—If someone for whatever reason died in the hospital before being tested, would you still test them?
 
  • #911
If you're right, then we're doomed to have CoVid in the US forever. The chances of all these people running into someone at the check-out stand (or in any other circumstance) where they have a brief conversation and their attitude changes are, IMO, very low. By now, surely almost everyone in North Dakota has heard of someone dying (their rates are brutal right now).

But it's my understanding that there's no statewide mask mandate and you can see how that's working out:

ND SMART RESTART Protocols
Snipped for focus



No, not everyone in ND has heard of someone dying. I know of people who have tested positive but know of no one who has died or anyone who has even been hospitalized---and I've lived here for decades so have a lot of relatives and know a lot of people.

The population of ND is slightly less than 800,000 and 760,000 tests have been conducted (although some of those are repeat tests). The state has among the highest testing rates in the country.

333 people have died from Covid in the state-- 0.0004%. 258 of them in long term care facilities.

Currently there are 156 people in the hospital in the whole state because of Covid.

North Dakota Coronavirus Cases

There are mask mandates in 2 cities as of now. Fargo, being the largest city, is one of them.

'There is no penalty for noncompliance in either city.'

I live in the 3rd largest city. The mayor of our city spoke with the Chief of Police regarding what could be done to individuals not wearing a mask if he issued a mandate. The answer: nothing. So he is not going to issue a mask mandate.

What good is a mandate?

The only way to hope to achieve compliance would be to have a city ordinance that attaches a ticket/ monetary penalty for non-compliance. I would suggest $250. And IMO, that's what should be done. The family of 4 who I saw shopping at Walmart last week, without masks, would think twice about not wearing masks if they were going to have to fork out $1000. Thankfully, while I was there, they were the only people I saw without masks.

Most businesses have signs posted on their front doors that say 'You must wear a mask to shop here'. If someone refuses to wear a mask, my understanding is that a private business has the right to refuse them service and if they don't comply, the business can call the police and have them trespassed from the property. Other than that, the police have no authority to do anything. Even with a city ordinance, if the police were called, I doubt it would be a priority call and the shopper would be long gone before the police arrived. However, having an ordinance in effect, would serve as strong deterrent.

As Fargo, Minot enact mask mandates, some North Dakota cities hesitate to follow suit | Grand Forks Herald
 
  • #912
https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article246202850.html

“In an object lesson of the difficulties of playing lower-level sports during a pandemic, two Triangle junior hockey teams may have spread COVID-19 to their Atlanta-area opponents last weekend.”

“The Junior Hurricanes Premier and Elite, teams for prospective college-bound players aged 16-20, traveled to Marietta, Ga., for games last Saturday and Sunday. Several players and staff tested positive for COVID-19 ahead of the trip and were left at home, but players and staff who tested negative were allowed to travel and play.”

“Karen Fishman, the mother of a player from Georgia who plays on the Junior Hurricanes Elite team, posted on Facebook that 17 players and staff tested positive before the trip. Her son tested negative, played in two games and subsequently tested positive on Monday. Efforts to reach Fishman for further comment were unsuccessful.”

Can anyone say “close contact”?
How are we going to get the numbers under the control if this keeps happening?
Isn’t ice hockey considered a high risk activity in terms of spreading COVID?

Of course the protocol above would be insufficient to prevent spreading covid. Several players on the team tested positive before the overnight event, and although those individuals stayed home,the entire team should have stayed home. Those who are in contact with someone who is positive, should isolate for two weeks. If this obvious breach happened, what other unsafe practices do they have?

Yes, hockey is a high risk activity. Is it possible to make changes that will allow some form of hockey to continue?

Our local hockey 🤬🤬🤬'n has made significant changes, including:

-kids arrive dressed so no one uses the change rooms
-everyone is screened at the door
-kids stay in their school cohorts
-no travelling to games in other towns
-no car pooling or busing
-most of the time teams are practicing drills
-teams play 3 on 3, so fewer people on the ice at one time
-teams have no more than 10 players including goalies and coaches
-a penalty is issued if a player is closer to another player than one hockey stick
-kids sit distanced when on the bench
-each kid may have one parent in the stands, no siblings
-kids wear masks when not on the ice
etc.

I hope it works for them. Hockey is a big part of kids physical activity here in N. ON.
 
  • #913
LA mega church outbreak... Grace Community Church in Sun Valley - estimated attendance 7,000.

An evangelical megachurch in Los Angeles that has defied L.A. County public health orders and held indoor worship services for the last several weeks has been struck with an outbreak of the coronavirus, public health officials confirmed Thursday.

Coronavirus outbreak strikes L.A. megachurch that defied public health orders

From the article:

"... despite public health order barring any house of worship from doing so. Thousands of people have attended services, with most not wearing face coverings as they sit side by side indoors, or close together outside under a tent, according to public health officials."


How long is the community going to put up with this before criminal charges are issued?
 
  • #914
I'm curious how you propose to go about this. Do you go up to people who aren't wearing masks and mention it to them?

I'm more interested in how we persuade larger groups of people (say, college students - because that's where I live and work).

I've never called anyone a name, and you keep saying that some of us have done that. I have not. I do think that some people have specifically stated that not only will they not wear a mask, but that they want others not to do so either - they don't want to be in the presence of mask-wearers.

I think we need a label for this group and I don't think anyone has yet been able to give a method for dealing with them (other than, for example, barring them from entering a space - which is what we are intending to do at the college, but the police are rather concerned about their role in this).

For example, we have a check point to enter campus for the people who must be on campus (athletes, film students who are editing, childcare students, nursing students, lab students). They are required to wear a mask at the checkpoint, answer a few questions and have a temperature check (fairly useless).

Then they go onward. Where they take their masks off, go into the lobby of the library (if they try to get through the turnstile they are turned away, but the lobby is large). Do we call the police on them?

Do we ignore the risks? These are people aged 18-40, mainly. This is the group with the steepest rise in CoVid where I live. 10% will be hospitalized.

Walk up to an individual (as we're passing through these conversational groups with no masks) and offer a mask?

What does this have to do with name calling?

Outside of their presence, we can refer to them, surely, as non-mask wearers. If, like a woman at a CVS drugstore who was filmed by a student of mine, a person decompensates and coughs and spits on the person who asked her to wear a mask, on others standing by (and on the security guard who was hiding behind a store manager, who was at the front of this melée and was the nicest darned person I've ever seen in a situation like that - had clearly had training and a natural gift for calmness), I think calling that women here on websleuths an "anti-masker" (so that we don't have to keep writing out all these details) is appropriate.

If we can't talk about these people and how to shape their behavior, I'm not sure how those of us who actually have to deal with such behavior on the daily are going to train ourselves and develop understanding. It must be nice not to have to deal with such things, but several of us do in fact have to deal with large groups. I do training for law enforcement - and you guessed it - they need training on how to deal with this issue. If I can't use practical information gained from my own experience, news source, journals - and yes, websleuths, I'm not sure where we go from here.

My goals are to prevent first responders from critical illness, but also to inform younger people about the risks they're taking. There are tons of issues where we have to have labels (next it will be "vaccinated" vs "non-vaccinated," as an educator and someone who is very involved in policy at the college, we will surely have to talk about it.

It's not name calling.



I think we only disagree about whether labels, which I see as "name-calling" are helpful or harmful when we're trying to influence the behavior of a nation of people so we can all stay safe.

Everything else we agree on. Universities, as far as I know, have pretty good policies, but a good number of students likely feel they're immortal--it's just the age. At the local university, they've had outbreaks in athletic teams and it seems as though more students test positive on a daily basis.

I mentioned before that I'm confused as to why we aren't seeing widespread national commercials that inform and encourage people to be safe. All we see on TV is state leaders and other officials who spew statistics without really reaching their audience on an emotional level.

But, at a base level, I believe people tend to live up (or down) to our expectations. Depending on what a person believes to be true concerning the virus, I've seen the labels, "anti-maskers," "covid-deniers," "scaredy-cats," "fascists," "socialists," and so on. But those labels clearly set expectations, and as such, they divide us and (JMO) make the problem worse. They create an "us" vs "them" scenario.

I'd like to see us pull together as a nation to fight this awful virus, but more than that, I'd like to see us pull together as human beings. Too many have already died, and that puts us on edge. It makes us fearful and rightly so--but fear also leads us to strike out at others because we start to see them as having a hand in putting us at risk.

The big question is how do we keep people safe when they don't think they're in danger?
 
  • #915
To expand on how each of us have been coping. I've definitely turned into a lurker on this thread, so grateful for all the links to the articles. Often, I find myself going down the rabbit hole, one article leads to another and so on. By time I come back to the thread, I'm dozens of posts behind.

I'm soon to be mid 60's, still work full time, but thankfully from home (even before the pandemic). That being said, lots of things haven't changed for me. However, I take this virus very seriously, have great respect for its potential and choose to cocoon and avoid possible exposure. Being in healthcare gives me a different prospective I believe than the general public. What, to me - is just common sense, doesn't seem to resonate with the general public. I sincerely feel as if I'm living in an alternate reality. Living in NE TN, the population isn't especially large here, my county is about 160K. Our numbers keep going higher and higher and higher. We've had increases of around 50 - 129 new cases daily for past couple of weeks. We're now at almost 3400 cases for my county. The local healthcare system giving a weekly progress report, now 135 Covid patients within the system and they're starting again to divert elective procedures.

My social life has come to an absolute stand still during this pandemic. I can't say I'm happy with what is going on, but I have made the conscious choice to put all social activity on hold for now. I do think there will be an end to this surge, but I also think it will be longer than I had initially hoped. After a few months of cautiously venturing out to do shopping, fully masked and armed with my trusty hand sanitizers, I'm back to totally doing curbside pickup. To me, if it's not essential - I have no excuse to take risks. I have 5 beautiful grandchildren that I want to spend a couple more decades enjoying once this is over. I have not seen my 85-year-old mother or either of my sisters since last Christmas, with no plans to see them until spring probably. They are not taking this in stride and my Mom especially is convinced this is totally "political". As if the entire world has joined forces to conspire against the US.
clip_image001.png


I did break isolation during the summer and had my 2 youngest grandchildren for a week, after both I and their family quarantined for 2 weeks before they brought the children to me. My saving grace.

I have missed a family wedding and last week I missed my BIL's funeral (not Covid related)

I just have to keep my eye on the prize - time with my family eventually once it's safe that doesn't send me into a full-blown panic attack being around them.

I am so thankful for this forum - definitely somewhere I can come and not feel so out of the universe and alone.


What a wonderful and heartfelt post!

So sorry to hear about you BIL.

You put into words how so many feel. Everyone is missing their extended family and social life doesn't exist anymore.
 
  • #916
From the article:

"... despite public health order barring any house of worship from doing so. Thousands of people have attended services, with most not wearing face coverings as they sit side by side indoors, or close together outside under a tent, according to public health officials."


How long is the community going to put up with this before criminal charges are issued?

I have to say, with all of this talk about religious gatherings that obviously flout all recommendations, I took a look yesterday at what the highest orders of the churches were doing to see what their covid 'policies' are.

Surprise/no surprise to see that Pope Francis is very rarely wearing a mask and is in close contact with his bishops while not wearing a mask. He does urge people to follow government guidelines. But he also says 'a church isn't a church without the faithful present'.

Pope Francis urges for following COVID-19 lockdown amid church-state debate
Pope reverts back to mask-less old ways at indoor audience
 
  • #917
The coronavirus pandemic is causing "unacceptable" shortages of US drug supplies in the United States, according to a report from the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy (CIDRAP) at the University of Minnesota.

The report says shortages have limited 29 of 40 drugs critical for treating Covid-19 patients, including propofol, albuterol, midazolam, hydroxychloroquine, fentanyl, azithromycin and morphine, according to the American Society of Health-System Pharmacists. The FDA, which has more stringent criteria for shortages, show 18 of 40 are on the Drug Shortage list.

Another 67 out of 156 critical acute drugs -- including diazepam, phenobarbital, lidocaine and acetaminophen -- are in short supply, the report said.

"The urgency with the drug shortage supply issue is related directly to the major increase in COVID-19 cases that we will experience in the coming months," Michael Osterholm, the director of CIDRAP, said in a news release.

Covid-19 is causing 'unacceptable' shortages in US drug supplies, report says - CNN
 
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  • #918
<RSBM>

The big question is how do we keep people safe when they don't think they're in danger?

I think the answer is pretty easy .... the leaders tell the people they are in danger.
 
  • #919
An article from the Palm Beach Post about a Florida rally Christian protest concert draws COVID-19 concerns in West Palm Beach - may be paywalled.
To escape county mask and social distancing ordinances, the rally was apparently labeled a “protest.” No masks and no social distancing.

With 7,000 pre-registered and more expected this has got to be a super spreader. What can you say? Amazing to me that anyone would chance their life and the lives of loved ones to attend. God is at home too.
 
  • #920
I think the answer is pretty easy .... the leaders tell the people they are in danger.


I wish that worked but it hasn't seemed to yet. People have to internalize the danger on an emotional level.
 
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