Could Patsy's Cocktails Have Played A Part In Her Rage Attack?

[RiverRat]

Take a look at this thread at FFJ for even more revelations!

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7551

MIKE KANE: Any other medications along that line that she's taking?

JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't think --

MIKE KANE: Not now?

JOHN RAMSEY: Well, earlier on, we also took, it was like, I could never have been a doctor.

MIKE KANE: Xanax?

JOHN RAMSEY: No. Klonopin.

MIKE KANE: Klonopin?

JOHN RAMSEY: Klonopin. And that was kind of on an as needed basis for a while. It was kind of a quick, picker upper, I guess.

:waitasec:

 

[Ames]

Take a look at this thread at FFJ for even more revelations!

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7551

MIKE KANE: Any other medications along that line that she's taking?

JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't think --

MIKE KANE: Not now?

JOHN RAMSEY: Well, earlier on, we also took, it was like, I could never have been a doctor.

MIKE KANE: Xanax?

JOHN RAMSEY: No. Klonopin.

MIKE KANE: Klonopin?

JOHN RAMSEY: Klonopin. And that was kind of on an as needed basis for a while. It was kind of a quick, picker upper, I guess.

:waitasec:

HMMMM....so, BOTH Ramsey's were taking Klonopin?? He said, "WE"....interesting. And what in the world did he mean by...."it was like, I could have never have been a doctor" ? Now, that makes NO sense.

 

[JMO8778]

Take a look at this thread at FFJ for even more revelations!

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7551

MIKE KANE: Any other medications along that line that she's taking?

JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't think --

MIKE KANE: Not now?

JOHN RAMSEY: Well, earlier on, we also took, it was like, I could never have been a doctor.

MIKE KANE: Xanax?

JOHN RAMSEY: No. Klonopin.

MIKE KANE: Klonopin?

JOHN RAMSEY: Klonopin. And that was kind of on an as needed basis for a while. It was kind of a quick, picker upper, I guess.

:waitasec:

klonopin is a downer,just the opposite,as I'm sure that's probably been stated somewhere b.f.
I guess he meant he can't keep up w/ meds and so therefore could have never been a dr.(no joke! LOL)

 

[JMO8778]

HMMMM....so, BOTH Ramsey's were taking Klonopin?? He said, "WE"....interesting. And what in the world did he mean by...."it was like, I could have never have been a doctor" ? Now, that makes NO sense.

if he didn't know it was a downer,I have to question if he even ever really took it ! he would have known otherwise if he did.

 

[Ames]

if he didn't know it was a downer,I have to question if he even ever really took it ! he would have known otherwise if he did.

Check this website out;


http://www.druginfonet.com/index.php?pageID=klonopin.htm

ADVERSE REACTIONS: The most frequently occurring side effects of Klonopin are referable to CNS depression. Experience to date has shown that drowsiness has occurred in approximately 50% of patients and ataxia in approximately 30%. In some cases, these may diminish with time; behavior problems have been noted in approximately 25% of patients.

Could this have been the reason that Patsy LOST IT that night?? IMO

 

[DeeDee249]

I am sure if she had been charged in the case, that would have been #1 on the defense list as far as what happened. They could even have argued that the meds prevented her from even remembering what happened. It's been used as a defense before, often with success.
PR had her medical excuses. But JR? Maybe that's why he mentioned taking Melatonin before bed. Setting it up to use that as a reason why he doesn't recall whether he or PR killed his daughter or staged the crime.

 

[Solace]

What rage attack?

The one that left the thumbprint on JB's neck when she was grabbed and slammed. That rage attack.

 

[JMO8778]

as far as cocktails go..IMO,due to the time of JB ingesting the pineapple..11pm or so...I think the R's arrived home MUCH later than what they say they did.if I recall correctly,the White's even said the R's left their party later than what they (the R's) stated in their interviews.I suspect this was due to them not just stopping by the Stine's house...as they said they did...but I think it's probable they went in and stayed for awhile,not noticing the time,and perhaps Patsy even had yet another drink or two there.I think this is the real reason they didn't go on to the Fernie's to deliver the last gift..it was just to late,later than they realized when they finally left.
Perhaps this is one reason the Stine's weren't called over that morning...they didn't want to be questioned,and possibly slip up and reveal the late time that the R's left,and that Patsy may have had more drinks at their house,too.
Susan herself even stated that was the last time she'd seen them as an intact family.HOW could she know this if JB was asleep in the car??(of course I don't believe she was,but it seems SS DID see her,possibly because they came into the house and stayed for awhile).JAT.

 

[DeeDee249]

I couldn't rule it out, but I am not so sure they'd have left a sleeping JBR in the car while they went in and visited with friends. IMO, a child of 6 is too young for that; if they wake up they're scared and may try to get out of the car. They admit to stopping a few places to deliver gifts after leaving the White's, so possibly they went inside each home for a little while.
I can't believe NONE of their friends told the truth about that night. If I were one of the "stops" and the daughter of good friends died later THAT NIGHT (and Christmas at that!) I know I'd remember every detail about my last moments with them, especially if I'd seen her hours before her death. I would hope the friends they stopped to see were questioned about it and I hope they didn't wait years to do it so that the R standard answer of "I just don't remember, it was years ago" couldn't be used. I mean, if they were questioned days or even weeks later, a simple thing like recalling whether JBR actually walked in awake to their home Christmas night should have been no problem. Unless someone got to them. No surprise there.

 

[JMO8778]

yes,that's what I think,that JB wasn't asleep,she was awake,and she went in,they all did,at least at the Stine's house.they stayed for awhile,possibly Patsy had another drink or two..it got to be later than they realized,so they left without going by the Fernie's to drop off the last gift.
It's SS's comment 'it was the last time I saw them as an intact family' that makes me think this is so,because of course they would have all had to come in for her to have seen them;JB asleep and in the car with JR and BR while Patsy knocked at the door and handed her a gift doesn't fit that scenario,so IMO,is likely not true.

 

[JaneInOz]

Since I don't believe John, Patsy or Burke were involved in JonBenet's death, I can't respond to your poll.

LOL

Alcohol can be torturous to some people, it can set them off into a complete rage :furious: I know because I am one of those people, If I have one over a certain amount thats it I'm toast. Needless to say I dont drink too much at one time ever. And I stick with red wine one or two glasses.
But even that can send some people over the edge.


Mix it with any type of drug and you have a cocktail for disaster (pardon the pun)

Booze, Pills - and who knows what she had in her stomach? did she each much food ? or did she drink and have pills on an empty stomach.

But EVEN SO to calmly stage the *intruder* scene so that the poor people like snowqueen are (again pardon the pun) snowed into thinking she didnt do is pretty creepy as to her character...

 

[JaneInOz]

The injuries to JBR's body are not consistent with a rage attack by a parent. If that were the case, no garrote would have been used, and the body would probably have been removed from the house. The garrote and ransom note suggest premeditation, not rage.

The injuries to JBR's body are very consistent with a sexual attack and murder by a psychotic killer.

So, the evidence contradicts a rage theory.

It was staged that way to make people think the way you do....

 

[JaneInOz]

Sounds like a nice Kodak moment ... but no, it doesn't work that way.

I'm pretty sure JBR would be visiting purgatory when she learn her mother had died with a big WRONG WAY Sign in her hands - with a big arrow pointing down that way

Heh heh ! lol Sorry couldn't help myself but God doesnt allow pycho child killers into heaven !

 

[JMO8778]

for sure,and 6 yo's do like to defy their parents and caregivers,and for someone who's been drinking,(or taking downers,tired,etc) or for whatever reason,they can seem very taxing at times.I remember my daughter, at that age,would put her foot right in my face and pretend to kick me whenever I put her to bed.She could be quite daunting at times,and I don't even drink.So I can imagine that to the 'don't cross me' Patsy,JB could have been quite handful to her,esp. w a trip to prepare for the next day.

(Oh sorry,I was replying to your staging post ).

 

[JaneInOz]

[/color]

Does there exist an official source for this? (Lab report, etc.)
A poster wrote that the fibers were from a hemp rope, and I vaguely remember reading about it somewhere else too.

The rope was said to come from Patsy's Painting frames the back where you hang them up.
There is a lady (who is dead now) who has a website still up with some really good stuff on it, She believed it was from the Painting Frame and thats also why the sister came back the VERY next day and TOOK A painting .

Ames, I really respect your knowledge, insight, and passion for this case. Since you are PDI, can I ask: how do you account for the sexual wound?

I know you posted earlier about how you think it happened, i.e. timing, who did it, etc. But the one question I still struggle with is, why?

In your scenario, PR assults JBR and renders her unconscious; thinking JBR's dead, PR calls for JR. He agrees that she's dead and begins helping with the staging, perhaps inflicting the sexual wound himself. The crime is then completed by ligature strangulation; possibly neither parent even realizes that JBR was still alive up to that point.

But if this is what really happened, then PR and JR decided to inflict a sexual wound as staging early on in the crime, before anything else happened, particularly before the writing of the ransom note!

So why write a rambling, three page ransom note hinting that JR is the enemy of some unknown foreign faction, and ask for a bonus amount exactly equal to JR's? Why even try to cast suspicion on the disgruntled former employee JR mentioned early on to LE, or on the housekeeper?

Snipped - I believe it was because they weren't thinking straight, OR HORROR of HORROR They did it before the murder and premeditated it But I just cant see it but then again thats probably because I am a mother and just cant imagine a mother doing that.

I take it PDI means Patsy did it ? lol

It is not just hard for me to comprehend, its impossible for me to comprehend any RDI scenario. I'm a realist, and I know the garrote and 2nd ligature are more the trappings of a real sexual predator than a prop spontaneously designed and built by a rage filled parent.

Snipped

But the item was from Patsy's painting box, isn't it logical to think that they either one or both of them looked around and thought this will do, this will look like a crazed sexual murderer did it.

Personally I believe a REAL Sexual Predator would have his own garotte or weapon of choice..

Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I., etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded.

We couldn't tell anyone in authority about what went down (the head blow) so we had to behead/strangle our daughter.


-Tea

Oh good grief thats IT ! they DID Call the police and then VOILA JBR winds up Garotted - not beheaded granted but maybe they just couldn't face beheading her and having the mess, or maybe there wasn't time, or it was too risky......but hell garotted / beheaded - very similar !

In regards to people talking about the garotte and winding it and it being inefficient etc, well perhaps they are just not used to murdering people.

Uh, male DNA, as long as it remains unmatched to a person who works at a factory, can be a shred of physical evidence left by an intruder.

2 1/2 pages of ransom note writing is another shred.

These are, in fact, possible shreds of evidence left by an intruder.

The statement that there is 'not one shred of physical evidence' is nothing more than your opinion, stated as fact.

Do you Seriously think a intruder would calmly sit down and write a 3 page ransom LETTER (3 pages is not a note - its a LETTER)
Do you really honestly believe that a intruder is going to calmly sit down and write an absurd ransom letter like the one that was written ? I mean why didn't he help himself to some Tea and biccies whilst he was at it

I have a question...was it Only pineapple in JBR tummy?


MAN She was on a COCKTAIL OF DRUGS

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1997BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

Paxel, Lorizapan , And a sinus medication (which could easily have antihistimine in it LIKE Psuedoephedrine - aka speed) AND Sometimes ADAVAN

and according to this didnt drink Alcohol

TT: Okay. Um, I all this, I know with the sinus infection your probably not even thinking about it, um, have you taken any alcohol? How much alcohol . . .

PR: No. I don’t drink alcohol.

TT: Okay. Uh, do you drink alcohol at all?

PR: No. Not since I’ve been on the Paxel at all.

TT: Okay. When did you start the Paxel?

PR: Uh, I don’t know. February maybe.

TT: Okay. Beg…towards the beginning or the end of February?

PR: I can’t remember exactly.

TT: Okay. And the Adavan, did you start that about the same time?

PR: Simultaneously.

Mind you did she mean Feb 97 or 96

But seems a lot of the drugs were After JBR death (after re reading it) but two of them Paxel and Lorizipram she was on by what i can gather...And I would think given the high stress she was in with the lifestyle pageants and so on, and with JBR I believe she could have been on some of the others /

what do you think

 

[RiverRat]

Well, Patsy did confess to having a panic attack prior to JonBenet's murder, so she very well could have already had the Mother's Little Helpers handy, but we all know that she was dosed up by JonBent's pediatrician on December 2, 1996 and used that as an excuse to avoid speaking to law enforcement.

Combine that with whatever expiraMental cancer treatments that she received....

 

[BBB167893]

I'm pretty sure JBR would be visiting purgatory when she learn her mother had died with a big WRONG WAY Sign in her hands - with a big arrow pointing down that way

Heh heh ! lol Sorry couldn't help myself but God doesnt allow pycho child killers into heaven !

Well, JaneInOz, as I write in the final chapter of the book, I find it comforting to think that Patsy has escaped the punishments of hell. Don't ask me why, I just do.

Snipped - I believe it was because they weren't thinking straight

I agree. You had two highly agitated people, no doubt each one with different ideas about what to do, neither one really having a clear idea as to what would and wouldn't work. They were just throwing everything against the wall, hoping some of it would stick.

But I just cant see it but then again thats probably because I am a mother and just cant imagine a mother doing that.

Sadly, JaneInOz, a lot of people can't put those prejudices aside and look at it objectively.

I take it PDI means Patsy did it ? lol

Correct. That's precisely what it means.

Oh good grief thats IT ! they DID Call the police and then VOILA JBR winds up Garotted - not beheaded granted but maybe they just couldn't face beheading her and having the mess, or maybe there wasn't time, or it was too risky......but hell garotted / beheaded - very similar !

It's simpler than that, JaneInOz. The reference to beheading is CLEARLY an attempt to suggest Islamic terrorism.

In regards to people talking about the garotte and winding it and it being inefficient etc, well perhaps they are just not used to murdering people.

No kidding. We're not talking Delta Force operatives here.

Do you Seriously think a intruder would calmly sit down and write a 3 page ransom LETTER (3 pages is not a note - its a LETTER)
Do you really honestly believe that a intruder is going to calmly sit down and write an absurd ransom letter like the one that was written ?

Must you ask? And yes, letter is the right word.

I mean why didn't he help himself to some Tea and biccies whilst he was at it

To hear some people tell it, he did! Can you beat that?

I have a question...was it Only pineapple in JBR tummy?

It's all we ever hear about.

MAN She was on a COCKTAIL OF DRUGS Paxel, Lorizapan , And a sinus medication (which could easily have antihistimine in it LIKE Psuedoephedrine - aka speed) AND Sometimes ADAVAN

And as I write in the book, only the gods know what kind of damage that stuff can do, much less a combination of forces. We owe it to JB and to PR to find out more about these things, an make sure they don't happen again.

Mind you did she mean Feb 97 or 96

After the killing. For all we know, she may have given up alcohol directly BECAUSE of what it made her do that night. That's ONLY speculation. Don't hold me to that.

But seems a lot of the drugs were After JBR death (after re reading it)

Can you blame her? If I had done what I think she did, I'd need something to deaden the pain, too.

but two of them Paxel and Lorizipram she was on by what i can gather

Right.

...And I would think given the high stress she was in with the lifestyle pageants and so on, and with JBR I believe she could have been on some of the others /

what do you think

I think you got something there.

 

[DeeDee249]

Please forgive me, but re-reading that "beheading" line in the RN gave me a chilling thought. I am sure it was nothing more than wanting to play up a link to a "foreign faction", (or what they imagined people would think a FF would do), but could they have put that in there with a far more sinister intent? If there was concern over the discovery of the head bash (which started the whole nightmare in the first place)....I don't even want to say it. It's just that to even THINK of "beheaded" is such an over-the-top thing, that I am wondering if foremost in their minds that night was her terrible head injury and how to prevent it from pointing back to them. They wiped down the flashlight- murder weapon or simply used to light the way around a dark house so lights could be kept off- but left a major damning evidence to be found at autopsy. The head bash. On the head.

 

[JMO8778]

I've wondered about that sometimes.and if that was the case,could they have been planning to get her out of the house as well?beheading..deny her remains...so if she was found,she would have been found as such.
It could have been a first panic-driven thought or plan.but perhaps the snow...fear of being outside the house w her,etc..could have made them change their minds.
But yes,think about that...it does sound like the excitement Patsy would go for.Esp. as far as making them appear all the more victims of some horrible intruder(s),not just a gang from the US,but from a foreign country..wow! JMO.

 

[rashomon]

Please forgive me, but re-reading that "beheading" line in the RN gave me a chilling thought. I am sure it was nothing more than wanting to play up a link to a "foreign faction", (or what they imagined people would think a FF would do), but could they have put that in there with a far more sinister intent? If there was concern over the discovery of the head bash (which started the whole nightmare in the first place)....I don't even want to say it. It's just that to even THINK of "beheaded" is such an over-the-top thing, that I am wondering if foremost in their minds that night was her terrible head injury and how to prevent it from pointing back to them. They wiped down the flashlight- murder weapon or simply used to light the way around a dark house so lights could be kept off- but left a major damning evidence to be found at autopsy. The head bash. On the head.

DeeDee, I too think the RN writer used the word "beheaded" on purpose - for the reasons you mentioned in your post. The ransom note writer's intent was that LE should connect the head wound to the SFF.

In his ransom note analysis, D. England wrote:

"beheaded"? This goes along with official execution via guillotine, but why does the mind of the writer go to this. Even if there is remembrances from reading of the times of execution by guillotine, why does this image take precedence over images more consistent with the situation and times? Would not a modern kidnapper, especially of the ilk depicted in the note, more likely opt for a knife in the heart, or a blunt instrument to the head, or a bullet in the brain as method of choice? The note writer's mind is upon official punishment (execution), but transferred to daughter in the form of beheading. Not knife through the heart; not death from blow to the head; not bullet through the brain, but beheading. Beheading is removing the head by cutting through the throat. Why this option instead of one of the others. What is it about the head and neck area that draws and holds the attention of the note writer?

http://www.acandyrose.com/04212000delmaranalysis1.htm

So everything points to the RN writer knowing both about the fatal head injury and about the cord tied around around the neck (this cord could also have been put here to camouflage evidence of a preceding fight - during which maybe the turtleneck had been twisted by an enraged parent).