Could Patsy's Cocktails Have Played A Part In Her Rage Attack?

[Ames]

Sorry Ames. lol http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

LOL..no need to apologize....I was thinking that HOTYH was like BORG...RDI, RST, IDI...(hey...I told you that I was tired). Duhhhh...I feel so stupid...

 

[JMO8778]

It's rage, b/c JB was grabbed by the collar,and her shirt was twisted,manually strangling her.And at some point,she was also hit on the head,causing a large splitting skull fracture.She was also probably thrown around the bathroom,which is likely where it all started.

It's been speculated JR may have done it,but I think the evidence points to PR.I think she wrote that ridiculous note to save her own hide,not anyone else's. And several things point to her trying to set up the housekeeper.

 

[Ames]

It's rage, b/c JB was grabbed by the collar,and her shirt was twisted,manually strangling her.And at some point,she was also hit on the head,causing a large splitting skull fracture.She was also probably thrown around the bathroom,which is likely where it all started.

Oh totally. It was nothing but a rage attack. Patsy was MORE than pissed at JB for whatever reason....and I believe that she probably was somewhat inebriated (although...I don't believe drunk....just tipsy)....and she let her emotions get the best....or in this case...the WORST of her.

 

[JMO8778]

Oh totally. It was nothing but a rage attack. Patsy was MORE than pissed at JB for whatever reason....and I believe that she probably was somewhat inebriated (although...I don't believe drunk....just tipsy)....and she let her emotions get the best....or in this case...the WORST of her.

I agree,in the past I've tried to consider JR as well,but I think it all points to PR.Have you heard the 911 call where she says 'help me,Jesus' several times at the end???I thought that was very telling...others have speculated it means nothing,but..what I heard in her voice(even tho she was not literally saying it) was 'help me get away with this,Jesus !!!!'
What she was saying wasn't about JB AT ALL....it was about her !! ALL about her ! (what else is new...I think she must have been very surprised when she died to find out God doesn't play her way).
For what it's worth,I don't say that off the top of my head,I've been to christian counseling (for some things that were done to me),and was told about God and justice.So my own beleifs are that everyone is held accountable;I don't believe you can be allowed to commit such a horrendous crime and go unpunished for it in the next life..considering she never confessed,she pointed the finger at innocent ppl,and she betrayed JB till the day she died.:twocents:

 

[Ames]

I agree,in the past I've tried to consider JR as well,but I think it all points to PR.Have you heard the 911 call where she says 'help me,Jesus' several times at the end???I thought that was very telling...others have speculated it means nothing,but..what I heard in her voice(even tho she was not literally saying it) was 'help me get away with this,Jesus !!!!'
What she was saying wasn't about JB AT ALL....it was about her !! ALL about her ! (what else is new...I think she must have been very surprised when she died to find out God doesn't play her way).

Yep...Help ME Jesus...not, Help us find JB, Jesus. It was ALL about her...you are right. I am quite sure that she found out the hard way that God doesn't play her way...and I believe there IS a hell.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Oh totally. It was nothing but a rage attack. Patsy was MORE than pissed at JB for whatever reason....and I believe that she probably was somewhat inebriated (although...I don't believe drunk....just tipsy)....and she let her emotions get the best....or in this case...the WORST of her.

Wrong. Three loops plus garrote around the neck is manipulation, not rage. Sexual attack.

 

[Dru]

As I'm not a PDI I didn't vote in this poll.

But as someone who thinks JR did it, I have to ask the PDI's here a question.

The sexual wound appears to have been inflicted during the murder; that is, it bled, so it wasn't inflicted after death as postmortem staging.

While alcohol mixed with prescription meds would certainly have made an out of control, rage killing possible, the infliction of that wound shows a quite sober calculation.

If you are PDI, how do you explain that wound, with or without the alcohol scenario?

If PR's judgement is impaired enough to cause this crime, how does she decide, before JBR is even dead, that this wound must be inflicted?

Has she been abusing JBR, and is she therefore covering for herself?
Does she know for a fact that someone else has been abusing JBR, and is she covering for that person? (And if so, why?)

Or, is the combo of alcohol/meds potent enough to cause her to inflict this wound in the midst of this crime because her judgement is so impaired that this horrific act of abuse seems logical and necessary in her altered state?

 

[BBB167893]

Wrong. Three loops plus garrote around the neck is manipulation, not rage. Sexual attack.

Norm Early had something very interesting to say about that, HOTYH. If you be interested.

The injuries to JBR's body are very consistent with a sexual attack and murder by a psychotic killer.

Right. That's why she wasn't beat all to hell and only molested a little bit.

The sexual wound appears to have been inflicted during the murder; that is, it bled, so it wasn't inflicted after death as postmortem staging.

What if the person didn't know she was still alive?

If PR's judgement is impaired enough to cause this crime, how does she decide, before JBR is even dead, that this wound must be inflicted?

Has she been abusing JBR, and is she therefore covering for herself?
Does she know for a fact that someone else has been abusing JBR, and is she covering for that person? (And if so, why?)

Or, is the combo of alcohol/meds potent enough to cause her to inflict this wound in the midst of this crime because her judgement is so impaired that this horrific act of abuse seems logical and necessary in her altered state?

All good questions. I would like time to think on them, if that's all right.

 

[JMO8778]

Yep...Help ME Jesus...not, Help us find JB, Jesus. It was ALL about her...you are right. I am quite sure that she found out the hard way that God doesn't play her way...and I believe there IS a hell.

me too,and I've even read ppl saying they hope she's reunited with JB ..oh pleeeezzeeee!!! ...I think JB won't ever have to see her again if she doesn't want to !! It sounds like they picture JB running into her mom's arms when she died...it just doesn't work that way !

 

[trixie]

Yep, along with the highly, highly addictive XANAX she was downing for her panic attacks. John by the way said he would be surprised to learn that Patsy took medication for panic attacks. He says this to Kane when interivewed. For two people that are so extremely close, they don't know very much about each other, except when it is necessary of course.

According to Patsy in her interview she wasn't on any meds at the time JB was killed. Not any cancer meds or stress meds or even any hormones after her hysterectomy. The Xanax happened AFTER JB was killed. Also the antidepressants. She did cop to the two or so glasses of wine and I believe Fleet and Priscilla back that up. I agree about these two not knowing much aout each other. It seems to be more one sided tho. It seems John doesn't know much about Patsy but Patsy knows alot about John.

 

[JMO8778]

As I'm not a PDI I didn't vote in this poll.

But as someone who thinks JR did it, I have to ask the PDI's here a question.

The sexual wound appears to have been inflicted during the murder; that is, it bled, so it wasn't inflicted after death as postmortem staging.

While alcohol mixed with prescription meds would certainly have made an out of control, rage killing possible, the infliction of that wound shows a quite sober calculation.

If you are PDI, how do you explain that wound, with or without the alcohol scenario?

If PR's judgement is impaired enough to cause this crime, how does she decide, before JBR is even dead, that this wound must be inflicted?

Has she been abusing JBR, and is she therefore covering for herself?
Does she know for a fact that someone else has been abusing JBR, and is she covering for that person? (And if so, why?)

Or, is the combo of alcohol/meds potent enough to cause her to inflict this wound in the midst of this crime because her judgement is so impaired that this horrific act of abuse seems logical and necessary in her altered state?

(I'm interested in what others have to say), but I think it's been speculated before..and it fits IMO..that JB was unconcious from the head wound,which didn't kill her(but would have eventually),and was thought to be dead.At that point,bet. unconciousness and death,the sexual staging occured.I think JR helped with that(per the fiber evidence),so maybe that part was his idea.I think the vag. wound was staging by the paintbrush handle,or a gloved finger,(that broke the brush),and I don't think that would have been attempted if JB had been thought to be alive at that point.(since it's possible to regain conciousness..the perp(s) couldnt have been sure she wouldnt have).I think the ligature strangling occured after the staged sexual assault,which of course ended her life.

I think PR had likely went to get help from JR when she couldn't get JB concious again.. they both thought she was dead,and the staging began from there.Any thoughts anyone??

IOW,the timeline is: JB and PR get into a struggle in the bathroom.JB is manually strangled and thrown about,and at some point is hit on the head with the flashlight and passes out.PR goes and gets JR,and they both think she's dead.
I think a prior staging may have occured in her bedroom,but she was then moved to the basement.At that point,the sexual staging occured,and then the ligature strangling last.

 

[samhoney]

Is it popular consensus on the board that Patsy killed JB in a fit of rage and then staged it to look like a murder/kidnap?

 

[coloradokares]

Yep, along with the highly, highly addictive XANAX she was downing for her panic attacks. John by the way said he would be surprised to learn that Patsy took medication for panic attacks. He says this to Kane when interivewed. For two people that are so extremely close, they don't know very much about each other, except when it is necessary of course.

According to Patsy in her interview she wasn't on any meds at the time JB was killed. Not any cancer meds or stress meds or even any hormones after her hysterectomy. The Xanax happened AFTER JB was killed. Also the antidepressants. She did cop to the two or so glasses of wine and I believe Fleet and Priscilla back that up. I agree about these two not knowing much aout each other. It seems to be more one sided tho. It seems John doesn't know much about Patsy but Patsy knows alot about John.

She said many things. It is my opinion the evidence belied that. What she said was she hadn't taken any ..... not that they had never been prescribed, however Now that she is gone I think medical records could be court ordered. If we ever have an independent prosecutor I know the outcry in Boulder on this subject is gonna rock the house and they'd have to get Patsy's medical records / How do you prove anything without toxicology reports. And maybe it was medications she should not have gone without.....We know she took them after her cancer diagnosis. ?! Thanks to not taking them down to headquarters and treating them like anyone else would have under the same circumstances there is things we can only take them at their word if we choose to do so.

 

[snowqueen]

Per the attached John & Patsy signed releases requested by BPD including medical records........

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/book_9b.html

 

[Ames]

Wrong. Three loops plus garrote around the neck is manipulation, not rage. Sexual attack.

Three loops...and I don't believe it was three (you are thinking of the THREE PAGE RANSOM LETTER)....around the neck plus garotte....is OVER staging by a person that is trying to make it look like an intruder committed this crime. You still haven't explained to me, why some sexual pervert would write a RANSOM note...as I have stated before...those are meant for people that are LIVING. You pay the ransom, you get your child back alive. So, do you believe this sexual pervert wrote the THREE page ransom letter, before or after the murder? If before the murder....then why the heck did he just leave it there? She was obviously NOT kidnapped...she was murdered and left in the basement. If AFTER the murder....WHY the h*ll would he do that? And WHY was it so long? Why not...I have your kid, if you ever want to see her again...get me $118,000.00 pronto. THE END! Why did the intruder tell John to be well rested? What was the point in that? Was he just being nice? I am surprised that he didn't tell John to not forget to wear his coat, hat and gloves..because it is cold outside...and he didn't want him to get sick. There was NO intruder....imo

 

[rashomon]

Per the attached John & Patsy signed releases requested by BPD including medical records........

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/book_9b.html

That Crimelibrary article is totally biased toward Ramsey innocence. Hardly surprising, for didn't the Ramseys once sue CourtTV? Seems CTV is afraid to be sued again ...

 

[Ames]

Yep, along with the highly, highly addictive XANAX she was downing for her panic attacks. John by the way said he would be surprised to learn that Patsy took medication for panic attacks. He says this to Kane when interivewed. For two people that are so extremely close, they don't know very much about each other, except when it is necessary of course.

According to Patsy in her interview she wasn't on any meds at the time JB was killed. Not any cancer meds or stress meds or even any hormones after her hysterectomy. The Xanax happened AFTER JB was killed. Also the antidepressants. She did cop to the two or so glasses of wine and I believe Fleet and Priscilla back that up. I agree about these two not knowing much aout each other. It seems to be more one sided tho. It seems John doesn't know much about Patsy but Patsy knows alot about John.

Consider the source....

 

[Ames]

me too,and I've even read ppl saying they hope she's reunited with JB ..oh pleeeezzeeee!!! ...I think JB won't ever have to see her again if she doesn't want to !! It sounds like they picture JB running into her mom's arms when she died...it just doesn't work that way !

Sounds like a nice Kodak moment ... but no, it doesn't work that way.

 

[Ames]

(I'm interested in what others have to say), but I think it's been speculated before..and it fits IMO..that JB was unconcious from the head wound,which didn't kill her(but would have eventually),and was thought to be dead.At that point,bet. unconciousness and death,the sexual staging occured.I think JR helped with that(per the fiber evidence),so maybe that part was his idea.I think the vag. wound was staging by the paintbrush handle,or a gloved finger,(that broke the brush),and I don't think that would have been attempted if JB had been thought to be alive at that point.(since it's possible to regain conciousness..the perp(s) couldnt have been sure she wouldnt have).I think the ligature strangling occured after the staged sexual assault,which of course ended her life.

I think PR had likely went to get help from JR when she couldn't get JB concious again.. they both thought she was dead,and the staging began from there.Any thoughts anyone??

IOW,the timeline is: JB and PR get into a struggle in the bathroom.JB is manually strangled and thrown about,and at some point is hit on the head with the flashlight and passes out.PR goes and gets JR,and they both think she's dead.
I think a prior staging may have occured in her bedroom,but she was then moved to the basement.At that point,the sexual staging occured,and then the ligature strangling last.

I agree!

 

[rashomon]

I have always thought this about Patsy..that the alcohol in those two cocktails played a part in the change in her personality. I was bashed on a board..that shall remain nameless....for posting my opinion on this....even though...Patsy...in her own words...said herself..that she had TWO cocktails at the White's party. That was something that SHE admitted to...I didn't make it up. I agree...it IS too bad that her blood alcohol level wasn't tested. But, even if it had of been tested that morning...it would have been alot lower than what it would have been the moment that JB was killed, and the staging was going on. IMO

Yes, it would have been lower, and the investigators would have to have taken into account the rate at which alhohol is reduced in the body over time.

While alcohol mixed with prescription meds would certainly have made an out of control, rage killing possible, the infliction of that wound shows a quite sober calculation.

Patsy needn't have been fully drunk, maybe she just had enough to become more aggressive than usual, and may have sobered down very quickly when realizing what she had done.