Could Patsy's Cocktails Have Played A Part In Her Rage Attack?

[Ames]

Yes, it would have been lower, and the investigators would have to have taken into account the rate at which alhohol is reduced in the body over time.
Patsy needn't have been fully drunk, maybe she just had enough to become more aggressive than usual. and may have sobered down very quickly when realizing what she had done.

Good point...they should have taken her and John into the station that morning..and tested BOTH of them...and THEN interviewed them separately.

I agree...I don't believe that she was full blown drunk....but had enough to become more aggressive than usual. I totally agree!!

 

[Solace]

(I'm interested in what others have to say), but I think it's been speculated before..and it fits IMO..that JB was unconcious from the head wound,which didn't kill her(but would have eventually),and was thought to be dead.At that point,bet. unconciousness and death,the sexual staging occured.I think JR helped with that(per the fiber evidence),so maybe that part was his idea.I think the vag. wound was staging by the paintbrush handle,or a gloved finger,(that broke the brush),and I don't think that would have been attempted if JB had been thought to be alive at that point.(since it's possible to regain conciousness..the perp(s) couldnt have been sure she wouldnt have).I think the ligature strangling occured after the staged sexual assault,which of course ended her life.

I think PR had likely went to get help from JR when she couldn't get JB concious again.. they both thought she was dead,and the staging began from there.Any thoughts anyone??

IOW,the timeline is: JB and PR get into a struggle in the bathroom.JB is manually strangled and thrown about,and at some point is hit on the head with the flashlight and passes out.PR goes and gets JR,and they both think she's dead.
I think a prior staging may have occured in her bedroom,but she was then moved to the basement.At that point,the sexual staging occured,and then the ligature strangling last.

JMO, I think there was prior staging in the bedroom since fibers from the rope were found in the bed. I think John was involved since fibers from his sweater that were found. This is such an unbelievebable scenario that John would agree that she is dead - I don't believe he heard the crack - I think it was Patsy and she realized she had done serious damage. For John to be told about JB and to agree to finish her off is really just beyond incredible to me. But it is possible that he said to himself "Patsy loved JB and I can see it from how upset she is and having her go to prison serves no purpose". But they have to kill her before she is actually dead. That is where the incredible comes in. For John to say okay, we have to strangle her so it looks like an intruder is beyond belief, but for Patsy also. And then they have to put her in the cellar. What kind of people are these two? It is incredible.

So yes I think he aided and he already knew where she was when he went down with Fleet. Steve Thomas saying he became markedly agitated as the morning wore on is from John wanting someone to find her and no one did. Also, very strange that Thomas says John was making jokes with the police. But then again he does have this perennial smile on his idiot face all the time.

 

[snowqueen]

That Crimelibrary article is totally biased toward Ramsey innocence. Hardly surprising, for didn't the Ramseys once sue CourtTV? Seems CTV is afraid to be sued again ...

Can you deny that the Ramseys signed release forms for access to their medical records? That was the point of my posting the link.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO, I think there was prior staging in the bedroom since fibers from the rope were found in the bed. I think John was involved since fibers from his sweater that were found. This is such an unbelievebable scenario that John would agree that she is dead - I don't believe he heard the crack - I think it was Patsy and she realized she had done serious damage. For John to be told about JB and to agree to finish her off is really just beyond incredible to me. But it is possible that he said to himself "Patsy loved JB and I can see it from how upset she is and having her go to prison serves no purpose". But they have to kill her before she is actually dead. That is where the incredible comes in. For John to say okay, we have to strangle her so it looks like an intruder is beyond belief, but for Patsy also. And then they have to put her in the cellar. What kind of people are these two? It is incredible.

Yes,and I have to wonder if JR didn't hold out any hope for JB b/c of sexual abuse ..was he afraid of taking her to the ER b/c of what might have been found??? Did he rationalize in his own mind that it was too late for anything to be done,and so didn't try to get her any help???

So yes I think he aided and he already knew where she was when he went down with Fleet. Steve Thomas saying he became markedly agitated as the morning wore on is from John wanting someone to find her and no one did.

I think so too.

 

[Solace]

Yes,and I have to wonder if JR didn't hold out any hope for JB b/c of sexual abuse ..was he afraid of taking her to the ER b/c of what might have been found??? Did he rationalize in his own mind that it was too late for anything to be done,and so didn't try to get her any help???


I think so too.

Of course it is possible that there was prior sexual abuse. The only reason I am leaning towards the douching is because it was an every day occurrence and Patsy was concerned and she did have infections and she was not healing at all. There was also the constantly damp underwear which kept things going, but douching will also keep an infection going, killing normal antibodies.

I know this theory is off the wall to many, I just don't see Patsy putting up with sexual abuse, firstly and foremost because it is insulting to her. She is very proud and very very strong in her feelings and what she wants. I don't think she would tolerate it.

It is just soooo bizarre that they sexually assaulted her like this to steer the police towards a sexual predator. You can't make this $h*& up.

Also, I believe Colorado posted some time back that she had heard from a good source which she did not want to mention that there was douching being done by Patsy and it was not a little thing.

Colorado, can you confirm this, am I wrong?

 

[rashomon]

Can you deny that the Ramseys signed release forms for access to their medical records? That was the point of my posting the link.

The issue was about Patsy's BAL level not being tested on Dec 26, not about the Ramseys signing release forms for access to their medical records.
But speaking of medical records: have JonBenet's medical records ever been released?

 

[Solace]

The issue was about Patsy's BAL level not being tested on Dec 26, not about the Ramseys signing release forms for access to their medical records.
But speaking of medical records: have JonBenet's medical records ever been released?

I don't think so. I don't think Dr. Beuf released them. Am I wrong anyone?

 

[rashomon]

JMO, I think there was prior staging in the bedroom since fibers from the rope were found in the bed.

Does there exist an official source for this? (Lab report, etc.)
A poster wrote that the fibers were from a hemp rope, and I vaguely remember reading about it somewhere else too.

[Coloradokares]
My unerstanding there were rope fibers from the rope in the spare bedroom the one that JAR had used. it was a hemp based rope NOT the rope that was used to garotte JonBenet. If fibers from the rope that garotted JonBenet had been found in JonBenet's room I want to see that information.

 

[Solace]

[/color]

Does there exist an official source for this? (Lab report, etc.)
A poster wrote that the fibers were from a hemp rope, and I vaguely remember reading about it somewhere else too.

Well, this I heard from the Court TV report a few months back. Maybe I should have thought twice about reporting it. I don't trust Court TV. But this was such "is or is not" thing, I thought it would be factual. Uh, oh, it is Court TV. So that is my source.

 

[snowqueen]

The issue was about Patsy's BAL level not being tested on Dec 26, not about the Ramseys signing release forms for access to their medical records.
But speaking of medical records: have JonBenet's medical records ever been released?

My response was in response to CK's post/medical records/calling for special prosecutor.

My response had nothing to do with Patsy's blood alcohol level being tested on the 26th.

JonBenet's medical records - I don't know if they have been released but I think they have. I have read a summary of her doctor's visits' findings
somewhere. Maybe on acandyrose?

 

[coloradokares]

[/color]

Does there exist an official source for this? (Lab report, etc.)
A poster wrote that the fibers were from a hemp rope, and I vaguely remember reading about it somewhere else too.

I think the source for this info was a poster from Courtv ...along with pictures of the hemp rope on the floor in what would have been JAR room..... Hope that helps not much eh Rashomon.....sorry.....

 

[Dru]

Ames, I really respect your knowledge, insight, and passion for this case. Since you are PDI, can I ask: how do you account for the sexual wound?

I know you posted earlier about how you think it happened, i.e. timing, who did it, etc. But the one question I still struggle with is, why?

In your scenario, PR assults JBR and renders her unconscious; thinking JBR's dead, PR calls for JR. He agrees that she's dead and begins helping with the staging, perhaps inflicting the sexual wound himself. The crime is then completed by ligature strangulation; possibly neither parent even realizes that JBR was still alive up to that point.

But if this is what really happened, then PR and JR decided to inflict a sexual wound as staging early on in the crime, before anything else happened, particularly before the writing of the ransom note!

So why write a rambling, three page ransom note hinting that JR is the enemy of some unknown foreign faction, and ask for a bonus amount exactly equal to JR's? Why even try to cast suspicion on the disgruntled former employee JR mentioned early on to LE, or on the housekeeper?

Once that sexual wound is inflicted it has to be explained. If the purpose of inflicting it was to make the whole crime look like the work of an unknown pedo intruder, why not stage everything about the crime to look that way? Why insist at first that the doors and windows were locked, except that open basement window JR conveniently 'forgot' to tell LE about up front? Why focus on the many people in their life who had keys to the house?

I can't help but think the "unknown pedo intruder" scenario was an unsatisfactory second scenario JR and PR settled on when they realized that none of their friends, neighbors, employees, contractors etc. were unaccounted for that evening, something they didn't realize for some time judging from their contradictory statements to LE early on in the case. It was supposed to be "fake foreign faction who was really our trusted friend/neighbor/employee X, who started to kidnap JBR as a way of getting at JR, but then attacked her and killed her instead." In coming up with this first scenario JR and PR were quite creative, in my opinion, writing that note, staging the body in the basement (and probably abandoning the original plan to dump JBR's body somewhere), doing all that was necessary. It must have seemed a pity to them that they forgot the one little detail that made it highly unlikely that anyone involved in their lives who might have had a grudge or a motive or a desire to kill JBR would actually be alone and unaccounted for on that one day out of all the days of the year.

They forgot that it was Christmas.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Three loops...and I don't believe it was three (you are thinking of the THREE PAGE RANSOM LETTER)....around the neck plus garotte....is OVER staging by a person that is trying to make it look like an intruder committed this crime. You still haven't explained to me, why some sexual pervert would write a RANSOM note...as I have stated before...those are meant for people that are LIVING. You pay the ransom, you get your child back alive. So, do you believe this sexual pervert wrote the THREE page ransom letter, before or after the murder? If before the murder....then why the heck did he just leave it there? She was obviously NOT kidnapped...she was murdered and left in the basement. If AFTER the murder....WHY the h*ll would he do that? And WHY was it so long? Why not...I have your kid, if you ever want to see her again...get me $118,000.00 pronto. THE END! Why did the intruder tell John to be well rested? What was the point in that? Was he just being nice? I am surprised that he didn't tell John to not forget to wear his coat, hat and gloves..because it is cold outside...and he didn't want him to get sick. There was NO intruder....imo

http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote5.jpg

Counting 3 loops. Sorry Ames, three loops and three pages. Are you telling me that this rage attack incorporated a complete control device that would be effective on an adult, and yet its only a prop?

 

[Ames]

http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote5.jpg

Counting 3 loops. Sorry Ames, three loops and three pages. Are you telling me that this rage attack incorporated a complete control device that would be effective on an adult, and yet its only a prop?

HOTYH...those were the WRIST LIGATURES!!! That is NOT the garotte. Did you not look at that and think...."MAN..she must have had an extremely little neck...about the size of a six year old's wrist.". I don't mean to make light..but, you said that the GAROTTE...the ligature...or rope...around her NECK was wrapped three times. Show me where you found that info, please! TIA.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

HOTYH...those were the WRIST LIGATURES!!! That is NOT the garotte. Did you not look at that and think...."MAN..she must have had an extremely little neck...about the size of a six year old's wrist.". I don't mean to make light..but, you said that the GAROTTE...the ligature...or rope...around her NECK was wrapped three times. Show me where you found that info, please! TIA.

You're putting words into my mouth again. Quote where I said 'wrapped three times'. My point is and has been: This is a manipulation/control attacker, not a rage attacker. The perp had this garrote and this three-looped 2nd ligature which would have been effective at controlling an adult. The idea it was only a prop seems far fetched and reaching.

 

[Ames]

You're putting words into my mouth again. Quote where I said 'wrapped three times'. My point is and has been: This is a manipulation/control attacker, not a rage attacker. The perp had this garrote and this three-looped 2nd ligature which would have been effective at controlling an adult. The idea it was only a prop seems far fetched and reaching.

Still the three loop picture that you posted is of the wrist ligatures, not the garotte or the rope around her neck. Click on the link below and you will see the garotte and the rope ATTACHED to it...and JB's hair caught in the rope....(those things are not present in the picture that you posted. Take a look at this...

http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote3.jpg


My point is...that the rope around her NECK was not wrapped around three times. And yes...as hard as it is for you to comprehend....her parents put it there.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Still the three loop picture that you posted is of the wrist ligatures, not the garotte or the rope around her neck. Click on the link below and you will see the garotte and the rope ATTACHED to it...and JB's hair caught in the rope....(those things are not present in the picture that you posted. Take a look at this...

http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote3.jpg


My point is...that the rope around her NECK was not wrapped around three times. And yes...as hard as it is for you to comprehend....her parents put it there.

I never said the rope was around her neck three times. You said that, and then quoted me as having said that. If you're going to quote me, kindly get it right. The forum has this 'quote' button to keep users from making this mistake.

It is not just hard for me to comprehend, its impossible for me to comprehend any RDI scenario. I'm a realist, and I know the garrote and 2nd ligature are more the trappings of a real sexual predator than a prop spontaneously designed and built by a rage filled parent.

 

[icedtea4me]

Yes,and I have to wonder if JR didn't hold out any hope for JB b/c of sexual abuse ..was he afraid of taking her to the ER b/c of what might have been found??? Did he rationalize in his own mind that it was too late for anything to be done,and so didn't try to get her any help???

Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I., etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded.

We couldn't tell anyone in authority about what went down (the head blow) so we had to behead/strangle our daughter.


-Tea

 

[Solace]

I never said the rope was around her neck three times. You said that, and then quoted me as having said that. If you're going to quote me, kindly get it right. The forum has this 'quote' button to keep users from making this mistake.

It is not just hard for me to comprehend, its impossible for me to comprehend any RDI scenario. I'm a realist, and I know the garrote and 2nd ligature are more the trappings of a real sexual predator than a prop spontaneously designed and built by a rage filled parent.

Holdon: But it does appear that you are referring to the wrist ligatures as the garrotte. Are you confusing them. The picture you posted is of the wrist ligatures. The garrote is completely different.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Holdon: But it does appear that you are referring to the wrist ligatures as the garrotte. Are you confusing them. The picture you posted is of the wrist ligatures. The garrote is completely different.

I said three loops plus garrote. I meant three loops [from the 2nd ligature] plus the garrote together are part of a manipulation/sexual assault crime, not a rage crime.

Just because the 'wrist ligature' was found on her wrist, doesn't mean you know how it was used. That it was only used on JBR's wrists is an assumption. Thats why I call it the '2nd ligature' and not the 'wrist ligature'.