Could Patsy's Cocktails Have Played A Part In Her Rage Attack?

[Holdontoyourhat]

I can't understand why you cannot see the absurdity of a household occupant putting pen to paper for 1500 words, identifying a kidnapping to attract FBI, at a capital crime scene.

It so defys logic as to be impossible. Its not just illogical, or panicked thinking. It simply would never happen. The odds are exponentially greater that a stranger who knew his/her handwriting would not be subject to comparison, would risk writing that note. A foreign faction member, perhaps??



You don't even need unknown male DNA at three (3) places on the victim's clothing to know NOBODY in the house that night would EVER write that ransom note.

 

[Tadpole12]

http://www.johndouglasmindhunter.com/articles/030208.php

Hi Hotyh -

Hey, so what do you speculate happened to the SFF perp/s. A decade later.

Would the perp still be invoved in SM behaviour?
Did they leave the US, self exile?
Did they become disillusioned with the socialist agenda? For all their efforts, no cash was procured.

Job? Family?
Having killed JBR, would the perp/s 'appetite' for deviant sexual behaviour increase? Would they be downloading child or manifestos?

Would a SFF type perp/s, have taken/saved a trophy. Have they attempted to "inject themselves into the police investigation to provide bogus information" ( http://www.johndouglasmindhunter.com/articles/030213.php).
Would they have been following the case online?
Have they been 'scrap booking' headlines.
Did they turn to alcohol, drugs?

What do you imagine?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

When you actually READ the ransom note, the author seemed really P.O.'d at this country and fat cats.

It was a fit of rage, I think.

'You're not the only fat cat, so don't think that killing will be difficult' is a standard mission-oriented serial killer's line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer

 

[Tadpole12]

Ty for the link, Hotyh
I'll have to read more on that topic.

 

[BBB167893]

I can't understand why you cannot see the absurdity of a household occupant putting pen to paper for 1500 words, identifying a kidnapping to attract FBI, at a capital crime scene.

Then you procede from a faulty premise, Holdon. I DO see the absurdity of it. But you're not looking at the big picture. The person who wrote it would have to be someone with a prediliction for the absurd and a grossly inflated opinion of their own intelligence and superiority. And for my money, a person who puts THAT much investment into their child to fulfill their old dreams fits that bill nicely. Exactly what part of "it was a very theatrical production and Patsy is a very theatrical person" and "narcissistic" do you not understand?!

It so defys logic as to be impossible.

It has been my experience that when it comes to child murder, logic just flat-out does not figure into it. You can't make sense of the senseless.

Its not just illogical, or panicked thinking. It simply would never happen.

By that logic, I guess we had better let Jeffrey MacDonald and Darlie Routier out of prison! Panicked thinking can make anything happen, Holdon. Within each skull is a little world all its own. So don't tell me something can't happen.

The odds are exponentially greater that a stranger who knew his/her handwriting would not be subject to comparison, would risk writing that note. A foreign faction member, perhaps??

Just how many professional profilers do you need to shoot that one down, anyway?

You don't even need unknown male DNA at three (3) places on the victim's clothing to know NOBODY in the house that night would EVER write that ransom note.

You must be reading a different note than the rest of us. Which would explain quite a lot, actually.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I didn't say that. But what I will say is that just about all of them agreed that the writer was:

-female
-From the South
-College educated
-35-45 years old.

Just about all CASKU believes the RN author is college educated? Thats strange because I can see no college-level words in the entire note, and simple elementary school level words like business are misspelled. How does a college graduate misspell business?

Oh yeah, I forgot the forensic proof you have that PR deliberately misspelled it.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Just how many professional profilers do you need to shoot that one down, anyway?

Just the one that actually knows what happened...

Which one would that be?

 

[BBB167893]

Just about all CASKU believes the RN author is college educated?

That's what I can gather.

Thats strange because I can see no college-level words in the entire note,

Oh? Let's see:

--attache spelled correctly, complete with accent mark.

--deviation, electronic, countermeasures, all correct.

Most of the violent foreign factions at work today come from areas that were once part of European empires, specifically the British, French and Spanish empires. This influence can still be seen in places like Australia and India (Britain), Lebanon and Haiti (France) and most of South America and the Phillipines (Spain). And at one time, what is now the United States was divvied up among all three.
Now, let's work that into a profile. The person knew French grammer, because the words with French origins had the proper accent marks. A lot of people in the South have French roots. And a certain SOMEONE just happened to give her daughter a French-sounding name, and went to far as to make up a story about how said daughter was already fluent in French.

You see where I'm going with this?

and simple elementary school level words like business are misspelled. How does a college graduate misspell business?

Speaking from personal experience AS a college graduate and former spelling champion, even I have the occasional trouble with those "double-s" words. And even then, I'm not writing like my life depended on it.

Oh yeah, I forgot the forensic proof you have that PR deliberately misspelled it.

I didn't say that. What I SAID was that I had forensic evidence that she deliberately changed her writing style after the killing. It's not that big a leap.

Just the one that actually knows what happened...
Which one would that be?

Very funny.

 

[madeleine]

Really it was a rhetorical question.

Why would anyone stage a kidnap for ransom when they needed to explain existing injuries. Why not stage a convincing sexual assault?

RDI has no real answer for that.

It gave them more time?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

It gave them more time?

Why would the R's call 911 at 6 AM if they needed more time?

 

[Tadpole12]

General population, less than grade 10 reading level.

http://www.informatics-review.com/FAQ/reading.html

 

[DeeDee249]

Why would the R's call 911 at 6 AM if they needed more time?

Their flight to Charlevoix was due to leave at 7pm. They had to make the call at that point. The death occurred 5-6 hours before the 911 call. They waited till the last possible moment they could to make that call. They spent the previous 5-6 hours staging the crime.

 

[Tadpole12]

It so defys logic as to be impossible. Its not just illogical, or panicked thinking. It simply would never happen. The odds are exponentially greater that a stranger who knew his/her handwriting would not be subject to comparison, would risk writing that note. A foreign faction member, perhaps??

The odds are exponentially greater that a stranger who knew his/her handwriting would not be subject to comparison, would risk writing that note.

No.
Odds?


What are the odds that a random sample would exhibit so many similarities of form to the sample provided by PR?
infinitesimal?

more like ..... Personality makeup.

 

[BBB167893]

Why would the R's call 911 at 6 AM if they needed more time?

I didn't want to tackle this until madeleine responded, but since DeeDee already broke the ice, I might as well.

Just a guess, but when madeleine said it would give them more time, I think (THINK, mind you) that she means it would give them more time to get control of the crime scene (including contaminating it) once the authorities got there.

As for calling 911 at 6 AM, there was no choice. Everyone in the neighborhood KNEW they had to leave early to go on their trip. The pilot of John's private plane was already waiting for them. If they didn't show up at the appointed time, somebody would have come looking for them. That would really have ruined the plan. Given the lack of options, better to exercise some control over it than getting steamrolled.

What are the odds that a random sample would exhibit so many similarities of form to the sample provided by PR?
infinitesimal?

About that, yeah.

 

[Tadpole12]

infinitesimal? -TP

No.

http://federalevidence.com/blog/200...ny-satisfied-five-daubert-reliability-factors

3. The known or potential rate of error
“In concluding that the type of handwriting analysis Storer was asked to perform had an acceptable rate of error, the court relied on studies conducted by Professor Moshe Kam of the Electrical and Computer Engineering Department at Drexel University. Professor Kam’s studies demonstrated that expert handwriting analysts tend to be quite accurate at the specific task Storer was asked to perform – determining whether the author of a known writing sample is also the author of a questioned writing sample. When the two samples were in fact written by the same person, professional handwriting analysts correctly arrived at that conclusion 87% of the time. On the other hand when the samples were written by different people, handwriting analysts erroneously associated them no more than 6.5% of the time. While Kam’s study demonstrates some degree of error, handwriting analysis need not be flawless in order to be admissible. Rather, the Court had in mind a flexible inquiry focused ‘‘solely on principles and methodology, not on the conclusions that they generate.’ Daubert, 509 U.S. at 595, 113 S.Ct. 2786. As long as the process is generally reliable, any potential error can be brought to the attention of the jury through cross-examination and the testimony of other experts.

 

[Tadpole12]

http://www.nalandabodhi.org/forensic_science.html


Re: sample; standards written under very different circumstances from the questioned material also limit the findings.


To make reliable comparisons, a handwriting expert must compare the disputed document to a sample written under similar conditions. The sample must be similar to the disputed document in the time at which it was written, the conditions under which the writings were performed, and the general purpose for which the writings were created. The writings must also have been created when the writer was in the same state of physical health. When it is not possible to find exemplars of handwriting prepared under similar conditions, inaccuracies result. The lack of appropriate samples results in unreliable analysis.

• [R]estricting conditions that may prevent a document examiner from reaching a positive conclusion or may permit him to arrive at only a qualified opinion: Lack of a sufficient amount of known writing is the most common deficiency, but standards written under very different circumstances from the questioned material also limit the findings. . . . A definite yes or no answer may also be precluded by wide differences between the dates of standard and disputed material, by an extremely hasty or careless bit of writing, or because a piece of writing was prepared during severe illness or under other adverse writing conditions. This is particularly true if no standards written under comparable conditions are available.

 

[Becky319]

I see an intruder killing the whole family verses sitting around writing that bogus ransom note. JMHO

 

[BBB167893]

Tadpole, you're making my case for me.

 

[Tadpole12]

Tadpole, you're making my case for me.

errr, that link was for my comrade*, Hotyh.

but ... ya, either way.

*affectionate term.

 

[weasel]

It's nice to know you'd be so clear-headed in a life-or-death crisis.



Depends on what I was trying to accomplish and how much time I had to do it.



I have. Many, many times.



As I've said before, it's not a question of stupid or smart.



Tell that to the guys from CASKU, as in the people who do this for a living:

The only reason to write the note or to leave it behind was to provide a false motive for the crime. (PMPT, page 307)

The experts thought that the ransom note was written by someone intelligent but not criminally sophisticated. (PMPT, page 494)

They believed the note was written in the home, after the murder, and indicated panic. The note was created to misdirect law enforcement and focus attention elsewhere and was a cathartic act that allowed the offender to "undo" the crime in one's own mind. (ITRMI, pages 242-243)



For the 1000th time, it's the absurdity of the note that SHOWS the writer was throwing in everything they could think of in the FIRST PLACE!

So the writer must have been thinking clearly in a life or death situation? Are we to believe that Patsy, in her supposedly drunken rage, kills JB, then is thinking so totally rationally and clearly that she actually sits down and writes a 3 page (?) ransom note, moves the body downstairs and stages a crime scene in such a manner that there is no absolute proof that she committed the crime? Wow. And please, don't quote Lawrence Schiller like he's the last word in the case. There are other REAL experts associated with this case who have totally different opinions.