Cyril Wecht's theory of the murder

[bettybaby00]

We often form opinions by what we "feel", "believe" and what makes "sense" .

Not too long ago, a friend of mine committed suicide. He blasted his face off with a shotgun. It made "no sense". I couldn't "believe" he did it. I "felt" someone must have killed him. Fact is: He did it to himself.

It can be difficult to base theories on facts, evidence and logic because opinions based on our feelings and beliefs.......well they just make us "feel" better.
IMO

I'm sorry to hear about your friend ((hug))

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

We often form opinions by what we "feel", "believe" and what makes "sense" .

Not too long ago, a friend of mine committed suicide. He blasted his face off with a shotgun. It made "no sense". I couldn't "believe" he did it. I "felt" someone must have killed him. Fact is: He did it to himself.

It can be difficult to base theories on facts, evidence and logic because opinions based on our feelings and beliefs.......well they just make us "feel" better.
IMO

I hear you on the suicide thoughts. I have had to ponder the same thing. When things don't make sense it's hard to reconcile them. However when people decide to die that is a choice. One most likely made in great anguish and pain but it is a choice. It's different logic to me.

My husband had a friend this week that committed suicide. He was 38 alone and had Lou Gehrig's disease.
It's hard to understand the desire to die being that string when you are one who lives with hope for the next day but I do understand it.

The thing with this crime and this poor little girls death is it does not make sense. No prior abuse no trouble with the law no concerns of teachers or doctors and yet this little girl was tortured and murdered and left in her home.

I have many questions about this. Many things that don't make sense but if there is evidence to explain it I can accept that.

I have often wondered if someone did take her out of the house, left the note in the night and then when they killed her decided to put her back in the house to point suspicion at the Ramsey's.

I know a lot of you feel like you have this all figured out but I have to get there on my own.
I need to eliminate all possibilities first.

 

[Chelly]

I hear you on the suicide thoughts. I have had to ponder the same thing. When things don't make sense it's hard to reconcile them. However when people decide to die that is a choice. One most likely made in great anguish and pain but it is a choice. It's different logic to me.

My husband had a friend this week that committed suicide. He was 38 alone and had Lou Gehrig's disease.
It's hard to understand the desire to die being that string when you are one who lives with hope for the next day but I do understand it.

The thing with this crime and this poor little girls death is it does not make sense. No prior abuse no trouble with the law no concerns of teachers or doctors and yet this little girl was tortured and murdered and left in her home.

I have many questions about this. Many things that don't make sense but if there is evidence to explain it I can accept that.

I have often wondered if someone did take her out of the house, left the note in the night and then when they killed her decided to put her back in the house to point suspicion at the Ramsey's.

I know a lot of you feel like you have this all figured out but I have to get there on my own.
I need to eliminate all possibilities first.

Help me wrap my mind around this: Are you suggesting someone, other than a Ramsey, broke into the house, spent considerable time in the house writing and rewriting a ransom note on PR's notepad with PR's black felt pen?

Then that someone, placed the note demanding $118,000 for JB's safe return on the stairs and took JB out of the house and sexually abused and killed her at another location? Someone then decided they didn't want the $118,00 anymore and wanted instead to point suspicion on the Ramsey's? So they trudged back into the house, dragging along JB's dead body, then dumped her in the WC all wrapped up nicely in her blanket?

Where were the R's while all this was happening, while this someone was going into and out of the house? If JB was alive while someone was writing the lengthy RN, what would she be doing? How did someone get her out of the house alive? Where did someone molest and kill her? How did they all get back into the house and then out again?

 

[SapphireSteel]

I hear you on the suicide thoughts. I have had to ponder the same thing. When things don't make sense it's hard to reconcile them. However when people decide to die that is a choice. One most likely made in great anguish and pain but it is a choice. It's different logic to me.

My husband had a friend this week that committed suicide. He was 38 alone and had Lou Gehrig's disease.
It's hard to understand the desire to die being that string when you are one who lives with hope for the next day but I do understand it.

The thing with this crime and this poor little girls death is it does not make sense. No prior abuse no trouble with the law no concerns of teachers or doctors and yet this little girl was tortured and murdered and left in her home.

I have many questions about this. Many things that don't make sense but if there is evidence to explain it I can accept that.

I have often wondered if someone did take her out of the house, left the note in the night and then when they killed her decided to put her back in the house to point suspicion at the Ramsey's.

I know a lot of you feel like you have this all figured out but I have to get there on my own.
I need to eliminate all possibilities first.

Cyril Wecht stated there was prior abuse. Quite a lot of it apparently, enough to give her repeated bladder infections and bowel problems.

Normal children do not visit a paediatrician 30+ times for these problems.

I'm sorry I thought you knew Wecht's opinion, as you're posting on his thread!

:twocents:

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Help me wrap my mind around this: Are you suggesting someone, other than a Ramsey, broke into the house, spent considerable time in the house writing and rewriting a ransom note on PR's notepad with PR's black felt pen?

Then that someone, placed the note demanding $118,000 for JB's safe return on the stairs and took JB out of the house and sexually abused and killed her at another location? Someone then decided they didn't want the $118,00 anymore and wanted instead to point suspicion on the Ramsey's? So they trudged back into the house, dragging along JB's dead body, then dumped her in the WC all wrapped up nicely in her blanket?

Where were the R's while all this was happening, while this someone was going into and out of the house? If JB was alive while someone was writing the lengthy RN, what would she be doing? How did someone get her out of the house alive? Where did someone molest and kill her? How did they all get back into the house and then out again?

I think that is entirely possible fir someone else to have written the ransom note. It dies not take hours to write one. Just a few minutes. Especially if they brought a written copy and just rewrote it on paper from the house. Especially if they were in the house before they came home. Even if not, the had til morning before anyone was up.
I don't know for sure but I just think it is possible. Especially if someone in the neighborhood heard a scream but people in the house did not.
All we are doing is speculating based on what we know and don't know. To me it is something I want to see if I can prove or disprove.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Cyril Wecht stated there was prior abuse. Quite a lot of it apparently, enough to give her repeated bladder infections and bowel problems.

Normal children do not visit a paediatrician 30+ times for these problems.

I'm sorry I thought you knew Wecht's opinion, as you're posting on his thread!

:twocents:

I do know it. However I meant any reported abuse. Kids can have uti's for many reasons. They can have bathroom issues for many reasons. I just can not agree it 1000% was ongoing chronic abuse.

We know she was abused that night. We have no idea how long that went on that night.

Just because someone has an opinion even a person I respect, it dies not mean I have to agree.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Cyril Wecht stated there was prior abuse. Quite a lot of it apparently, enough to give her repeated bladder infections and bowel problems.

Normal children do not visit a paediatrician 30+ times for these problems.

I'm sorry I thought you knew Wecht's opinion, as you're posting on his thread!

:twocents:

I do know it. However I meant any reported abuse. Kids can have uti's for many reasons. They can have bathroom issues for many reasons. I just can not agree it 1000% was ongoing chronic abuse.

We know she was abused that night. We have no idea how long that went on that night.

Just because someone has an opinion even a person I respect, it does not mean I have to agree.

 

[BOESP]

The autopsy report shows chronic trauma. That means more than once and at least 24 hours or more prior to the acute trauma (JonBenet had damage that had already healed before the damage that occurred at or about the time of her death). It would be hard to interpret that information in any other way than to say JonBenet was abused on more than one occasion.

My two cents still agrees with Steve Thomas's opinion that Patsy subjected JonBenet to corporal cleansing.

 

[UKGuy]

The autopsy report shows chronic trauma. That means more than once and at least 24 hours or more prior to the acute trauma (JonBenet had damage that had already healed before the damage that occurred at or about the time of her death). It would be hard to interpret that information in any other way than to say JonBenet was abused on more than one occasion.

My two cents still agrees with Steve Thomas's opinion that Patsy subjected JonBenet to corporal cleansing.

BOESP,
Maybe both things were taking place, thus reinforcing the requirement for a family backed solution?

Coroner Meyer did cite Sexual Contact which to mind is different from corporal cleansing.?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

BOESP,
Maybe both things were taking place, thus reinforcing the requirement for a family backed solution?

Coroner Meyer did cite Sexual Contact which to mind is different from corporal cleansing.?

.

Different MO but end result is the same- internal vaginal injuries. And the coroner would not offer (not would he know) opinion as to whether the injuries were the result of too-rough cleansing. I assume the injuries might be different as well. Sexual contact is just that- contact with the genitals of another person. And whether it was intended to be sexual or not, it is still described as such.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,
Maybe both things were taking place, thus reinforcing the requirement for a family backed solution?

Coroner Meyer did cite Sexual Contact which to mind is different from corporal cleansing.?

.

I see it as a matter of semantics. That aside, no one has ever proved the vaginal damage was caused for sexual gratification. Yes, it was sexual contact because it involved some of the sexual organs but was it for the pleasure of the instigator or for corporal cleansing?

I do agree that it is possible that both things were taking place. This is where I am still on the fence. Steve Thomas could not exactly spill the beans even if he thought Burke was involved according to what I've read here about Colorado statutes. However, he did say he believed Burke was totally mixed-up about the events and had nothing to do with JonBenet's death (or words to that effect). Thomas used the term "corporal cleansing" but he was not definite about why the cleansing was needed.

Personally, I don't think Burke was involved in JonBenet's death. I think Patsy was the best subject. My problem is I can't decide exactly what precipitated the attack on Jonbenet. I do believe Patsy pitched a hissy and JonBenet died from the after effects of Patsy's fit but I am a total fence-sitter why she did it.

 

[bettybaby00]

Different MO but end result is the same- internal vaginal injuries. And the coroner would not offer (not would he know) opinion as to whether the injuries were the result of too-rough cleansing. I assume the injuries might be different as well. Sexual contact is just that- contact with the genitals of another person. And whether it was intended to be sexual or not, it is still described as such.

the end result being the same is an interesting point to consider in light of the Rs refusal to have ALL of JB and BR's medical records turned over to LE. It's indicative, IMO, to the parent's knowledge that something wasn't right. And the Rs reasoning that they felt they were entitled to "an island of privacy" certainly raises questions. Moreover, while reviewing police files, Kolar came to realize that prior to the Rs first official "interview" with the DAs office (April '97), they were provided copies of police investigative reports prior to their questioning.this was a concession by the DA. A concession made in exchange for the Rs to agree to the "interview." Their subsequent interview in June of '98 had another "caveat." Their lawyer states at the time, "I have a real problem with certain kinds of medical records. These people are entitled to an island of privacy to try and recover what they've been through...I think you will get virtually everything you've described with the possible exception of personal medical records that I think Patsy and John are at least entitled to make a reasonable decision on..." (251/53)

Virtually everything????? Why not everything?? :banghead::banghead:

 

[arielilane]

I read Dr. Cyril Wecht's book years ago and I have a lot of respect for him. The threads move so fast here...LOL

 

[SapphireSteel]

I do know it. However I meant any reported abuse. Kids can have uti's for many reasons. They can have bathroom issues for many reasons. I just can not agree it 1000% was ongoing chronic abuse.

We know she was abused that night. We have no idea how long that went on that night.

Just because someone has an opinion even a person I respect, it dies not mean I have to agree.

They certainly can.

Reasons that can be identified, managed and treated.

JBR's uti's were recurrent, vague, undiagnosed, with no specific identifiable cause. Of course these days sexual assault would be number one on the checklist but these were "nice" people with a lot of money supporting an old family doctor. Nothing untoward could be hinted at. I doubt it even occurred to the poor old fellow or if it did, he dismissed it.

Nice white folks like the Ramseys don't do things like that to their kids.

Except nowdays, we know that they do.

:twocents:

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I know plenty of kids who have has uti problems and no abuse. They just have issues. Sometimes it happens. Some of us are more probe to things than others.

I just can't take the leap to abuse from that. There needs to be more for me.

If something can have a rational explanation something not horrid I have to stay there until I can disprove that.

Just as some babies are more prone to diaper rash than others. Some moms do everything right and still that baby can have diaper rashes.

I'm just not there now.

 

[Venom]

I think that is entirely possible fir someone else to have written the ransom note. It dies not take hours to write one. Just a few minutes. Especially if they brought a written copy and just rewrote it on paper from the house. Especially if they were in the house before they came home. Even if not, the had til morning before anyone was up.
I don't know for sure but I just think it is possible. Especially if somevryoneone in the neighborhood heard a scream but people in the house did not.
All we are doing is speculating based on what we know and don't know. To me it is something I want to see if I can prove or disprove.

That is possible. But why?
Intruder breaks into house.
Gets JBR out of bed, sexually assaults her, kills her.
Copies ransom note onto a pad of paper from the house.
Leaves the body in the house.
All the while no one hears anything.
Then when the note is found, the parents call the police and everyone else in Boulder to tell them that their daughter's been kidnapped, and to come to the house.
It just doesn't make any sense that an intruder would bring a note and then copy it in the house, jmo.

 

[SapphireSteel]

What is "proof", at the end of the day?

It used to be that circumstantial evidence was sufficient for juries. Miss Scarlet in the library with the candlestick was enough to convict if Professor Peacock was lying there with a candlestick shaped dent in his head.

Now we require DNA, even though the presence of DNA proves absolutely nothing by itself.

Short of actually witnessing the murder oneself, how much "proof" is needed?

For most of us on WS, I think circumstantial is still enough, if it is very compelling.

It doesn't come more compelling in my opinion, than a fake ransom note in PR's handwriting, proof of some sort of ongoing sexual abuse, and the other psychological oddities in the Ramsey house...let alone the published allegations from those closest to the investigation such as Linda Ardnt, Steve Thomas, Kolar etc.

:cow:

 

[Chrishope]

What is "proof", at the end of the day?

It used to be that circumstantial evidence was sufficient for juries. Miss Scarlet in the library with the candlestick was enough to convict if Professor Peacock was lying there with a candlestick shaped dent in his head.

Now we require DNA, even though the presence of DNA proves absolutely nothing by itself.

Short of actually witnessing the murder oneself, how much "proof" is needed?

For most of us on WS, I think circumstantial is still enough, if it is very compelling.

It doesn't come more compelling in my opinion, than a fake ransom note in PR's handwriting, proof of some sort of ongoing sexual abuse, and the other psychological oddities in the Ramsey house...let alone the published allegations from those closest to the investigation such as Linda Ardnt, Steve Thomas, Kolar etc.

:cow:

It's not in Patsy's handwriting.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

That is possible. But why?
Intruder breaks into house.
Gets JBR out of bed, sexually assaults her, kills her.
Copies ransom note onto a pad of paper from the house.
Leaves the body in the house.
All the while no one hears anything.
Then when the note is found, the parents call the police and everyone else in Boulder to tell them that their daughter's been kidnapped, and to come to the house.
It just doesn't make any sense that an intruder would bring a note and then copy it in the house, jmo.

It doesn't have to make sense. Look at the crime. My guess is that it would be someone they know who has had prior contact with jbr. He wants it too look like the Ramseys were involved. He could have samples of Patsy's handwriting and been copying it.

The whole crime is horrific and to me that kind of chaotic thinking, the choice to kill on Christmas Night, which I believe has some significance, the myrder of a child in an incredibly brutal way, means to me that trying to make it make sense and fit a mold is the wrong way to approach it. It only has to make sense to the killer. Not us.

Omo.

ETA. Sorry auto correct took over. Ill correct on laptop.

 

[questfortrue]

What is "proof", at the end of the day?

It used to be that circumstantial evidence was sufficient for juries. Miss Scarlet in the library with the candlestick was enough to convict if Professor Peacock was lying there with a candlestick shaped dent in his head.

Now we require DNA, even though the presence of DNA proves absolutely nothing by itself.

Short of actually witnessing the murder oneself, how much "proof" is needed?

For most of us on WS, I think circumstantial is still enough, if it is very compelling.

It doesn't come more compelling in my opinion, than a fake ransom note in PR's handwriting, proof of some sort of ongoing sexual abuse, and the other psychological oddities in the Ramsey house...let alone the published allegations from those closest to the investigation such as Linda Ardnt, Steve Thomas, Kolar etc.

:cow:

Circumstantial evidence is the only evidence which can be used in this particular crime, because of the contamination of the crime scene and because of the lack of witnesses or “solid” DNA proof like blood, saliva, semen. When it’s circumstantial evidence, there must be more than one piece of it. In the R’s case there is a lot of circumstantial evidence, and I’m not going to list it all here. ST used to carry a warrant around in his pocket, so convinced he was of the amount of evidence gathered.

Thanks to UKguy for his suggestion of involvement of more than 1 R in the crime. The following is “circumstantial”.

Lies: PR and R’s lies have been discussed at length. For BR, however, not as much pointed out. Kolar does point to some things. First, there is the very curious statement on the part of BR that JB had been struck on the head and stabbed,and it doesn't jibe with the fact that when the early BR interview took place, BR had already heard at a school presentation that his sister had been strangled. Plus, he said he pretended to be asleep, when a voice (people think his) was heard on the enhanced by-the- Aerospace- Corp tape. BR did not contradict his parents story about this until later. (OK, understandable not to contradict one’s parents, especially your father.) However, doesn’t take away that both he and parents lied about this. And lying in a capital case is a big deal.

Sexual contact: It is possible sexual contact was perpetrated by 2 or even 3 (If the corporal cleansing idea is accepted – douching or rough cleansing mean PR could be involved with this.) It seems less probable IMHO, but acknowledge the possibility.

Kolar does an outstanding job of describing SBP and connecting the dots to BR. Too, given the presence of a dictionary with the word “incest” highlighted, methinks circumstantially someone in a position to know felt one of the R’s were responsible for the sexual contact that night. It’s to be noted that the sexual evidence was “distanced” by the R’s – both in a police interview and in their press conference beginning of May ’97. In that tightly controlled press gathering JR states emphatically that he did not kill JB. But regards sexual abuse: “I can tell you those were the most (BBM) hurtful innuendoes to us as a family. They are totally false.” His statement about not killing his daughter is straightforward. His statement about sexual abuse – more emphatic and he includes his entire family. What could be worse than being accused of killing your daughter? Sexual abuse. Make of it what you want.

One last story for consideration, but first a discussion. Some of you may know of the syndrome of giving one’s wife a nice present after being caught doing something bad – an affair, etc. Kobe Bryant’s $6 million diamond ring for his wife after his Colorado bad boy behavior comes to mind. (moo) Well, in the fall of ’95 the R’s took a trip to Texas. JB was 5 years old. When they returned the photographer of JB who also knew the family said JB’s “look” of childhood innocence was gone. ( It’s my belief photographers are trained to notice expressions.) What caused my antenna to go up was that PR came back with a humongous diamond ring and was shining people on about why she got the ring. PR said she saw others down in Texas with big rings and she wanted one. The photographer who heard this story thought it rang very false. OK, make of this what you want, totally circumstantial. Or call it too speculative. JB’s innocent look gone and PR sports a big diamond ring.

These are just details discovered on the web, in ST’s book and in Wecht’s book. Not sure it contributes anything to our discussion here, but I am a believer in the preponderance of circumstantial evidence explaining a crime. Interpreting who it points to the best is the perplexing part.