Dan Dorn seeks to deprive paralyzed woman of visitation with her kids

  • #81
I will never understand Terry Schiavos husband. BTW, that circus went on not too far from here. I felt so sorry for her family. Terry was starved to death.
Maybe this guy wanted the same thing for his wife? who knows....she is so lucky her parents have her, she is safe but still....x husband, let the children come and visit her. Children at age 5 are smart and more forgiving, they will love their Mother. Its the only one they will ever have.
I see alot of expression in the womans face. Seeing lively children, HER children might help her.

It isn't Mr. Schiavo's fault that our society insists we let the incapacitated starve rather than take action to hasten their deaths.

If we must have villains here, then we should turn to Terry Schiavo and Abbe Dorn, who apparently did not leave clear, legal, written instructions as to their wishes under these circumstances. (Of course they were both young women and I understand why they may not have thought it necessary. But that should be the lesson to all of us.)
 
  • #82
Respectfully and adamantly disagree with part of your post BBM. I have known several people in my lifetime that serious illnesses of this nature have occurred and yes, all of their spouses were by their sides to the very end. One, was that of a young adult who was in the same state that Dorn is in and his parents took care of him in their home until he died. He was not passed off to a nursing home or group home, his parents took care of him. I value my family and my friendships because these people are honorable people, that is who I surround myself with. I do not doubt for one second that these people would stay with their spouses in the event something of this horrific nature would occur. It is not human nature to cut and run.

Even in your example, you say the "parents took care of him." Parents are much more likely to stick around and take care of their sick child, than a spouse, IMO.
 
  • #83
With respect, yosande, there is a difference between hope and delusion. Would it be alright if I tell the children to watch the street every day, because someday soon their mother is going to drive up in a Rolls Royce and take them to Disneyland? Of course, not. Not even if for some reason I had faith that it would happen.

I also think you misunderstand how our laws on separation of church and state work. They tend to defer to parents (over grandparents) when it comes to teaching religion to children. In this case, nobody can stop the grandmother from having faith in her daughter's recovery, but the court can--and has--prevented the grandmother from contradicting what the father tells his children.

ETA "False hope is an oxymoron"? Then pardon me while I sit on my a$$ and hope to win the lottery. Surely you can see there are hopes that are reasonable and there are hopes that are, in fact, hopeless. The latter are called delusions and they generally end in heartache (if not the insane asylum).

Hope and despair aren't the only possibility options. There's also honesty and it isn't always a bad thing. Upon surrendering false hope, one may be left with more reasonable expectations and even new hopes that are more likely to be realized.

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the making of any law "respecting an establishment of religion", impeding the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech,


Nova, I respect your opinion, your views, however, a judge is compelled to make judgments that agree with the US Constitution. This judge took the father's information, and used it to prohibit the grandmothers freedom of faith, and speech, in her own home.
The father was allowed to come into the home, and overpower the rights of the homeowners and the mother.
If Abbe had faith in a healing God before she became unable to say so, then her views should be allowed to be spoken by her caregiver, who is her representative.
The mother not only has the right to see and touch her children, she also has the right to tell them about her hopes, dreams, and faith in her God.
Since she is unable to speak, her mother speaks for her on her behalf.
The man chose to give up that right, as it was his, by divorcing her.
However, he still wants many of the rights that he gave/threw away.

Being as she married a devout orthodox belever, one can assume that that doctrine is/was her beliefs. Therefore, if Judaism believes in miracles, the grandmother has every right to say so, even if that is unrealistic to an unbeliever.

Honesty is always a good thing, not just sometimes.
The judge simply didn't take the mother's rights completely into account.
No surprise there. MOO

The judge has to be able to see through the exaggerations of the circumstances to see the full picture.
The mother would be allowed to see her children, even if her opinions did not agree with the father without being supervised by him.
Some exaggerations imo;
Her life expectancy is short.
Gm took child to the bathroom, and didn't allow daddy to come in, b/c she was indoctrinating the child against the father's will.
Waiting until the children are older before seeing their mom is in their best interest.
Gm speaking about a recovery is cruel to the children.
moo
 
  • #84
It isn't Mr. Schiavo's fault that our society insists we let the incapacitated starve rather than take action to hasten their deaths.

If we must have villains here, then we should turn to Terry Schiavo and Abbe Dorn, who apparently did not leave clear, legal, written instructions as to their wishes under these circumstances. (Of course they were both young women and I understand why they may not have thought it necessary. But that should be the lesson to all of us.)


Turning disabled people into "villians" for not leaving clear instructions per a living will is offensive. When Terri was disabled, living wills were not the norm, as was the case with my son, therefore the doctors had no choice but to do no harm. In fact, when I was asked to sign permission to insert a trach so they could wean him off the vent, I was told that they would have to do so even without my permission. Do no harm. Save a life if one can.
Living wills give the doctors the freedom to abstain from life giving treatments if they determine the condition to be chronic. Our signing living wills give the doctors permission to judge whether our lives are worth saving. Since many of them already think of themselves as God, it's not surprising that we now have living wills.

Abbe would have been given a living will to fill out when she became a patient of the hospital.
We don't know if she filled it out or not, but her husband was with her, and he should know. She may have stated that she wanted all treatments needed to live. Those would be clear instructions, just not ones you might agree with.

It is not villianous to chose life, even if that life is a disabled one. moo
 
  • #85
I would not want to be denied life saving measures. I always tell my family they better not unplug me. I am of course half joking but half of me is not. It isnt my choice when I die or the doctors or my husbands. If I am meant to die alittle at a time then that is how it will happen. If I am meant to live in complete stillness for 15 years that is what is meant to happen.
I know people who say the different and swear they would just want to die if such and such happened. I just really dont feel that way.
 
  • #86
My living will is so comprehensive that I think if I cough my attorney is allowed to rush into my house and smother me.
 
  • #87
What really bugs me about this story is how the media spun it to make Dan Dorn appear to be a cold hearted man. There is always SO MUCH more to a story like this, and now I think we are seeing that. The judge setting limits on the "meddlesome" mother in law only HINTS at what kind of "meddlesomeness" (sic :D ) has been going on all this time.

I would NEVER pull my grandson into a room away from his mother to "speak to him privately" without his mother's explicit permission. It wouldn't cross my mind to do so. That is controlling and meddlesome far beyond what is appropriate, I don't care WHAT is happening.

God only knows what Dan Dorn went through in those first few months after the children were born. He lost his WIFE. He was basically a widower with three babies to care for. He lost A LOT. And he had to somehow make a life for himself and his babies.

I don't know this guy at all. For all I know, or any of us, he really IS rather cold hearted and had another woman all lined up. These human stories are always "more" than what appears on the surface and I detest how the media spins them.

If I had a mother in law that pulled my child aside and forbade me from being involved in the interaction I would blow my stack. The very IDEA. I don't need to poke my nose in every single thing either, that's not the point. This one little detail fleshes out so much "more" of the story than just about any other detail I've read.
 
  • #88
Judge Fredrick Shaller ordered five-day visits once a year, where the children will visit Dorn at her parents' home in South Carolina for three hours each day. Only Dorn, her ex-husband Dan Dorn and their three young children are to take part in the visit.

I'm pleased.

I think back to my ex-sil who had 3 precious babies. She was also suffering from stage 4 breast cancer. She couldn't talk, and a hospital bed was set up in the living room. Those babies (3-6 at the time) adored her and relished every moment with her. Yes, she did pass months later, but I'm convinced they learned something from what was a very terrifying experience for them. They are now grown and fully functional and quite sensitive adults. Their mama taught them about death and dignity at a very young age.

In all honesty, I believe these visits were harder on me than the children. I would spend time cleaning, doing laundry, while they sat holding her hand, reading books, and telling her how much they loved her.

I believe she passed knowing just how much her children loved her and it made her passing peacefull (yes, the cancer had spread to her brain). I don't know it for a fact - but it sure felt that way.

IMHO anyone who is passing needs to be surrounded by their loved ones - especially children.

This is just my opinion, and not meant to offend anyone who might feel differently.

Hugs,

Mel
 
  • #89
The First Amendment....

yosande, I'm sure you know there are exceptions to all rights. Of course, you're entitled to a different opinion, but I think you've overextended the rights to freedom of speech and religion when you insist a grandparent be allowed to contradict a parent's teaching. That the site is the grandparent's home is balanced by the fact it is also the mother's home and the children have no other place they can visit her. And I still think the grandmother telling 5-year-olds that their mother will get better is cruel.

As for living wills (I'm now responding to a different post), I think you are probably right that Abbe Dorn was given something to sign when she entered the hospital and we should assume she is being cared for according to her wishes. So that was a bad example on my part and I appreciate the correction.

I also understand why Terry Schiavo didn't expect to need a living will. (I don't agree they were uncommon. I've had one since the mid-1980s.) Most of us don't expect to need one at such an early age. Nonetheless and though I'm sorry you are offended, I still believe each adult has an obligation to take care of his or her own living will. If s/he does not, then the rest of us should be reluctant to criticize those who are forced to make decisions instead.

I have no idea where you got the idea that I oppose continued care for those such as Abbe Dorn who request it. I said no such thing. (And I certainly DID NOT imply continued care was wrong for your son. On the contrary, I think you are heroic, and I believe you that your son rewards you many times over for his care.)
 
  • #90
My living will is so comprehensive that I think if I cough my attorney is allowed to rush into my house and smother me.

Mine too...but differently. I also have massive amounts of requirements after death. :crazy: Yeah, the no molestare the corpus, bury in 24 and no funeral kind. It's a pine box for me...and I shall be gone! I can make no judgement about these parents wanting to keep their child...I also understand a Grandparent who desires to influence their grandkids..but aqs a parent...there is absolutely no way I would allow someone to secrete my child in another room without me present to "talk" to them. Nope.
 
  • #91
What really bugs me about this story is how the media spun it to make Dan Dorn appear to be a cold hearted man. There is always SO MUCH more to a story like this, and now I think we are seeing that. The judge setting limits on the "meddlesome" mother in law only HINTS at what kind of "meddlesomeness" (sic :D ) has been going on all this time.

I worked in the family law field for years, and one thing I learned is that cases like this (thank god, I never had to deal with anything this complicated!) are always more complicated than can be portrayed in a news article (or even an hour-long tv show). There's a reason why trials can take so long--there is so much information a judge has to (or should) take in to be able to make an informed decision. I always hate to see one side (or even both sides) go to the news to try to get a case decided on public opinion (I'm not saying that's what has happened here). I'll admit, I've read much of the information linked to in this thread, but I remind myself that I really don't have enough info to have an informed opinion.

I feel bad for everyone involved to have their personal life/decisions held up to public scrutiny. I particularly feel bad for those kids, who someday may be old enough to read what was said about their family online (although here I am, contributing to an online discussion about it). It's just sad all around.
 
  • #92
Mine too...but differently. I also have massive amounts of requirements after death. :crazy: Yeah, the no molestare the corpus, bury in 24 and no funeral kind. It's a pine box for me...and I shall be gone! I can make no judgement about these parents wanting to keep their child...I also understand a Grandparent who desires to influence their grandkids..but aqs a parent...there is absolutely no way I would allow someone to secrete my child in another room without me present to "talk" to them. Nope.

And as a grandparent, may I agree with others that it would never occur to me to do so? For the record, my daughter and son-in-law are atheists; I am not. (Fortunately, I don't believe in a God who condemns non-believers, so I'm not fretting that any of them will end up in Hell. I also think my daughter and son-in-law are open-minded enough they will probably let me share my views with the grandkids when they are older.)

But bottom line: until the grandkids are adults, it's the parents' decision. And even with adult grandchildren, I would choose my words very carefully.

ETA if a grandchild asked me about metaphysical beliefs, I would probably find a way to clear what I had to say with one of his/her parents. But since God and the afterlife aren't discussed in the household, they aren't apt to ask.
 
  • #93
I worked in the family law field for years, and one thing I learned is that cases like this (thank god, I never had to deal with anything this complicated!) are always more complicated than can be portrayed in a news article (or even an hour-long tv show). There's a reason why trials can take so long--there is so much information a judge has to (or should) take in to be able to make an informed decision. I always hate to see one side (or even both sides) go to the news to try to get a case decided on public opinion (I'm not saying that's what has happened here). I'll admit, I've read much of the information linked to in this thread, but I remind myself that I really don't have enough info to have an informed opinion.

I feel bad for everyone involved to have their personal life/decisions held up to public scrutiny. I particularly feel bad for those kids, who someday may be old enough to read what was said about their family online (although here I am, contributing to an online discussion about it). It's just sad all around.

Well said, all around. But I think if the Dorn children read here someday, they will find that all posters were concerned about their welfare--and even the welfare of their parents and grandparents.
 
  • #94
Well, there's the internet for you. We've all been critical of Dan Dorn (including I, even while defending his point of view) and now it turns out that he had offered yearly visits all along. He just doesn't want his ex-wife's mother to delude the children with false hope.

I think he's right about that.


FWIW, I don't think Mr. Dorn was offering yearly visits "all along." The article simply says that he made this offer sometime before the trial. Plus, he wasn't going to allow the visits until the children were "6 or 7" and even then, only IF he was provided with "medical evidence" that Abbie can communicate with her children, so there were stil a few loopholes:

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-03-25/...bbie-dorn-visitation-rights-triplets?_s=PM:US
 
  • #95
FWIW, I don't think Mr. Dorn was offering yearly visits "all along." The article simply says that he made this offer sometime before the trial. Plus, he wasn't going to allow the visits until the children were "6 or 7" and even then, only IF he was provided with "medical evidence" that Abbie can communicate with her children, so there were stil a few loopholes:

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-03-25/...bbie-dorn-visitation-rights-triplets?_s=PM:US

Wow! That link is written almost completely opposite to the one we were dealing with above. The previous link painted this decision as a victory for the father (and says the grandmother is barred from being present during visits); your link talks about how thrilled the grandparents are. Otherwise, however, I'm not sure the facts presented are in conflict.

As for visitations, the children are 5 now and they spent four days with their mother four months ago. So they will be 6 before long. Perhaps there was an issue about whether they would visit this summer, but that depends on when their birthdays are.

As for wanting medical evidence that the mother will be able to respond, I'm sorry but I don't think Dan Dorn is a bad father for not wanting his children forcibly stuck in a room with a comatose woman for hours on end just because it allows his in-laws to sustain a fantasy about their daughter's consciousness.

Now it may be that won't happen. But that's the "medical evidence" the father wants: that the children won't be put in that position. And he wants to hear it from someone other than the grandmother who insists on telling his young children their mother is going to get better, despite all medical evidence to the contrary.

For the moment, the judge has made the determination that Abbe is indeed responsive and everyone will have to abide by that. Sounds fair to me.
 
  • #96
Her condition is much more serious than just paralysis. I don't think many husbands/wives would stick around in such a situation,it just human nature whether we want it or not.
I would. When I said I do it was for better or worse to death due us part. Not .. for better leave at worse and if you get injured ( no fault of your own I mind you) I take the children and walk with a year. My husband is not a tempary husband. He is my forever husband and I will be here with him until the end . no matter how that end looks.
 
  • #97
I would. When I said I do it was for better or worse to death due us part. Not .. for better leave at worse and if you get injured ( no fault of your own I mind you) I take the children and walk with a year. My husband is not a tempary husband. He is my forever husband and I will be here with him until the end . no matter how that end looks.

That is very commendable. But Mr. Dorn seems to have significant doubts as to whether his wife remains alive in any meaningful sense; his in-laws obviously disagree. He also had three babies to think about.

Giving up custody of his wife to her parents may have been best for all involved.
 

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