DCA - American Airlines passenger plane collides with Blackhawk over the Potomac River, all 67 on both dead, 29 Jan 2025

[ekc]

I used early night vision goggles in the National Guard driving a tank.

As another poster mentioned, those versions did not do well: flares or lights could blind the device, depth perception was bad, and color contrasts such as: Are those headlights or red warning lights? all blurred into the same green etc).

I would bet that the modern ones used for flying are far better than the early models for general usage. But.... its still night time, the air space is crowded, and as the Senator mentioned, one needs to fly a very exact route while trying to identify a certain plane.

Even with modern night vision, it seems like it does not take much to go wrong for things to go very wrong.

why would they be used in high light pollution areas when it is hard to discern what is what...is there not a test pod somewhere pilots can have all the necessary lights thrown at them without loss of life ...this is so sad

 

[StarryStarryNight]

No.

I know from listening many time to the ATC on 911 that the towers talked to both civilian and military aircraft.
Maybe it was just for that day and the special circumstances, I don’t know.

 

[Dotta]

"The near-misses and plane crashes
that have plagued
DC's notoriously dangerous Reagan Airport."

The near-misses and crashes that have plagued dangerous Reagan Airport

The American Airlines crash near Washington DC's Ronald Reagan National Airport follows a pattern of crashes and near-misses - including a 1982 crash that left 78 people dead.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Charlot123]

But... did the pilot really see that plane approaching that runway? Its night, so its easier to get disoriented. At say, 80mph the pilot only needs to be unsure for of his position for 1 minute to fly 1.25 miles in a small area.

Things then go bad, very bad....

RSFB. Disorientation. Tons have been published about commercial pilots and much less, about military helicopter pilots. The factors might be different as the altitudes are different. We need more helicopter pilots to pitch in what factors may play the role.

There are rules or reasonable habits, but unless they became official regulations, accidents may happen. What was a rule (starboard to starboard passing of ships) became a regulation after the catastrophe of Andrea Doria. That's a good example. If two ships could not pass in an open sea, what to expect of planes and helicopters? If you look at the case, both made mistakes; neither was deadly but a catastrophe happened.

 

[Cryptic]

3 competent pilots in the helicopter and one can't see the plane they are about to hit and say whoooah...they can stop on a dime and hover...very puzzling

I think this is an over simplification.

There were only two pilots in the Blackhawk- third person was a load master. They were flying at night in an area with little room for error. They were also trying to identify a certain airplane landing at a certain runway.

And.... planes and helicopters are not like cars. Its not easy to glance over ones shoulder to see if that plane was really the plane you thought it was. Telling passenger cars from SUVs on the highway is easy. Helicopters do have rearview mirrors, but look in one too long and they"ll fly into the water.

And.... night flying does not occur using super handy street lights and nice, well marked exit signs. Rather, certain lights can look just like other lights. And... a specific run way can look just like another run way. A Bombardier can look just like a 737.

 

[Seattle1]

They're not going to frame the ACT guy for this. Half the world(maybe slight exaggeration) has heard his comms now, he was doing his job, no more, no less. I hope to heck no one ever leaks to media who he is.

It hasn't been determined that the several ATC personel were at fault, despite being short-staffed.

Thank you! I suggest all wanting to go there take one minute to listen to the rules applicable to Military helicopter traffic vs commercial aircraft in post # 485.

These pilots are not on the same flight plan (visual vs instrument) -- the Black Hawk is using visual plan at this altitude and corridor and is responsible for visual separation. Black Hawk requested and received visual separation from ATC-- taking responsibility.

Audio between PAT-25 and the Reagan ATC:

The controller asks PAT25 (BlackHawk) if he sees the CRJ (plane). PAT25 confirms, and requests "Visual Separation". That means that he is affirming seeing the plane, and will himself work to avoid it.

Newsbreak -- What is "Visual Separation"?

 

[Seattle1]

Timeline of air traffic controllers issuing warnings before American Airlines plane, Black Hawk helicopter collision in DC

The plane, which took off from Wichita, Kan., with 64 people on board, was landing at Reagan National – traveling north toward Runway 33.

nypost.com

Below is a rough reconstruction — based on flight records from FlightRadar24, FlightAware, and audio from LiveATC.net — of the moments leading up to the crash.

• 5:22 p.m. — American Airlines Flight 5342 — a fully booked CRJ 700 carrying 60 passengers — takes off from Wichita, Kan., bound for Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport. It was due to touch down in DC around 9 p.m.
• 8:39:40 p.m. — Army UH-60 helicopter – also known as a Black Hawk – takes off northwest of D.C. near Langley, Va., with three personnel onboard for a training exercise. The chopper, based out of Fort Belvoir, flew south down the Potomac River towards Reagan National.
• 8:40 p.m. — Flight 5342 begins approaching Reagan National’s Runway 33 from the south of Washington, DC, travelling around 145 mph.
• 8:48:38 p.m. — Reagan air traffic control tower radios the helicopter and asks, “PAT-25 Do you have the CRJ in sight?” before directing the chopper to “pass behind CRJ.”
• 8:48:39 p.m. — Within moments the helicopter pilot confirms that he sees a plane and requests “visual separation” — meaning he is going to maneuver the helicopter out of the way using his own visuals, instead of by following control tower direction.
• 8:48:56 p.m. — About 20 seconds later the two aircraft slam into each other over the Potomac and burst into flames as they were torn apart.
• Air traffic controllers can be heard gasping, “Oh my!” before the audio cuts out.
• 8:49:30 p.m. – An air traffic controller says “Tower, did you see that?” while in the background a commotion is audible.
• “Crash, crash, crash, this is an alert three, crash, crash, crash,” a Metro Washington Airports Authority dispatcher announced over radio communications moments later.
• 8:51:30 p.m. – Air traffic controllers began diverting planes to nearby airports, including Dulles and Baltimore International Airports.
• 8:52:00 p.m. – “Everything closed” an air traffic controller appears to say. All flights at Reagan were closed quickly after the collision – with all traffic remaining halted until 11 p.m. Minutes later controllers were heard asking “Are you able to assist with the search and rescue?” and trying to track down search lights and other resources.
• 8:53 p.m. – DC police began receiving calls about “an aircraft crash above the Potomac River,” according to CNN.
• 8:59:50 p.m. – “We witnessed the whole thing” a pilot tells the Reagon tower after being ordered to re-direct. When a JetBlue flight was asked if they “witness the encounter,” the pilot responded “Affirmative.”

 

[steeltowngirl]

I have very little faith the narrative that eventually is provided will be factual.

I worry about this also. But I also never believed the Flight 800 narrative. I hope nowadays there is more transparency.

 

[Herat]

Bbm.
Yes, I keep forgetting the DC side and the Virginia side and that having two jurisdictions would clash.
So thanks for clarifying.

The bolded needs to be improved or changed if that's possible.
If everything is going to remain unchanged, hire more staff at the very least.
Too much traffic for one area.
That's my opinion only.

There are actually 3 runways at KDCA.

Runway 01/19 is the longest runway at 7169 ft and is reported in GOOD condition. This is the runway that handles the largest plane landings and takeoffs

Runway 15/33 is the second longest at 5204 ft and is reported in EXCELLENT condition. This is the runway that AA5342 and other smaller commercial craft may be assigned to when there is a lot of traffic.

Runway 04/22 is the shortest runway at 5000 ft and is reported in GOOD condition. I am not seeing it used much at all.

The airport description carries this caution message;

• BE ADVISED SOME AIRCREWS MISTAKE RWY 15 FOR RWY 19.

That could be a major disaster for a large plane as the runway may be too short for a safe heavy landing, risking a runway excursion into the Potomac. (My comment)

I would think exploring how to extend runway 04/22 might be an option to handle the amount of traffic at KDCA rather than get into trying to reconfigure the Potomac or other Federal Waterways in that hugely complicated area.

Contrast the relatively short runways at KDCA with Washington Dulles (IAD). Longest runway at Reagan is 7169 ft. At IAD, longest runway is 11500 ft and 3 of the 4 runways are longer than 10,000 ft.

I think the FAA needs to do some very serious consideration into how to make KDCA safer, even if it involves fewer flights.

DCA - Ronald Reagan Washington Ntl Airport | SkyVector

 

[indicolite22]

I know from listening many time to the ATC on 911 that the towers talked to both civilian and military aircraft.
Maybe it was just for that day and the special circumstances, I don’t know.

The ATC might be using two frequencies at once - one for the civilian and one for the military aircraft.

 

[Cryptic]

why would they be used in high light pollution areas when it is hard to discern what is what...is there not a test pod somewhere pilots can have all the necessary lights thrown at them without loss of life ...this is so sad

I am thinking that they will not be used much longer in that particular area unless its a true emergency on the scale of Godzilla.

The safety risks seem to be too much.

 

[PrairieWind]

I have very little faith the narrative that eventually is provided will be factual.

The NTSB is a very professional organization. I have a lot of confidence in them.

 

[Panniniclaus]

The air traffic controller working at the time of the deadly plane-helicopter crash in Washington was doing the work of two people, the Federal Aviation Administration said in its preliminary report, according to the New York Times.

This led to the controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity to also be the one in charge of instructing planes landing and departing the runways. The jobs are normally assigned to two people, not one

Air traffic controller was doing the job of two people during DC plane crash due to tower being understaffed, FAA says

The air traffic controller working at the time of the deadly plane-helicopter crash in Washington was doing the work of two people, the Federal Aviation Administration said.

nypost.com

One has to believe there is a procedure for the handling of two positions.

 

[Chimera]

The air traffic controller working at the time of the deadly plane-helicopter crash in Washington was doing the work of two people, the Federal Aviation Administration said in its preliminary report, according to the New York Times.

This led to the controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity to also be the one in charge of instructing planes landing and departing the runways. The jobs are normally assigned to two people, not one

Air traffic controller was doing the job of two people during DC plane crash due to tower being understaffed, FAA says

The air traffic controller working at the time of the deadly plane-helicopter crash in Washington was doing the work of two people, the Federal Aviation Administration said.

nypost.com

Bbm.
What a travesty.
Overworked, exhausted, even doing the job of one ATC is hard to fathom, for those of us who don't have a high pressure occupation.
Please know I'm not blaming this certified controller.

I thought I'd read that the number of working controllers should have been much higher, but couldn't find a link -- lost it whilst reading more msm articles, so, thanks for posting this link !

From your NYPost link :
The airport’s air traffic control facilities have been understaffed for years, with only 19 fully certified controllers on deck as of September 2023, according to Congress’ Air Traffic Controller Workforce Plan report.

The facility should have had 30 on deck, as per the goal set by the FAA and controller’s union.

They needed 30 staff to function safely and properly .
Thirty !
And they only had 19.
Trying to do this job with fewer employees than needed and not to mention responsibility for the safety of passengers...
Imagine the stress.
Omo.

 

[indicolite22]

Timeline of air traffic controllers issuing warnings before American Airlines plane, Black Hawk helicopter collision in DC

The plane, which took off from Wichita, Kan., with 64 people on board, was landing at Reagan National – traveling north toward Runway 33.

nypost.com

Below is a rough reconstruction — based on flight records from FlightRadar24, FlightAware, and audio from LiveATC.net — of the moments leading up to the crash.

• 5:22 p.m. — American Airlines Flight 5342 — a fully booked CRJ 700 carrying 60 passengers — takes off from Wichita, Kan., bound for Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport. It was due to touch down in DC around 9 p.m.
• 8:39:40 p.m. — Army UH-60 helicopter – also known as a Black Hawk – takes off northwest of D.C. near Langley, Va., with three personnel onboard for a training exercise. The chopper, based out of Fort Belvoir, flew south down the Potomac River towards Reagan National.
• 8:40 p.m. — Flight 5342 begins approaching Reagan National’s Runway 33 from the south of Washington, DC, travelling around 145 mph.
• 8:48:38 p.m. — Reagan air traffic control tower radios the helicopter and asks, “PAT-25 Do you have the CRJ in sight?” before directing the chopper to “pass behind CRJ.”
• 8:48:39 p.m. — Within moments the helicopter pilot confirms that he sees a plane and requests “visual separation” — meaning he is going to maneuver the helicopter out of the way using his own visuals, instead of by following control tower direction.
• 8:48:56 p.m. — About 20 seconds later the two aircraft slam into each other over the Potomac and burst into flames as they were torn apart.
• Air traffic controllers can be heard gasping, “Oh my!” before the audio cuts out.
• 8:49:30 p.m. – An air traffic controller says “Tower, did you see that?” while in the background a commotion is audible.
• “Crash, crash, crash, this is an alert three, crash, crash, crash,” a Metro Washington Airports Authority dispatcher announced over radio communications moments later.
• 8:51:30 p.m. – Air traffic controllers began diverting planes to nearby airports, including Dulles and Baltimore International Airports.
• 8:52:00 p.m. – “Everything closed” an air traffic controller appears to say. All flights at Reagan were closed quickly after the collision – with all traffic remaining halted until 11 p.m. Minutes later controllers were heard asking “Are you able to assist with the search and rescue?” and trying to track down search lights and other resources.
• 8:53 p.m. – DC police began receiving calls about “an aircraft crash above the Potomac River,” according to CNN.
• 8:59:50 p.m. – “We witnessed the whole thing” a pilot tells the Reagon tower after being ordered to re-direct. When a JetBlue flight was asked if they “witness the encounter,” the pilot responded “Affirmative.”

I think an earlier exchange between the helicopter and the ATC is missing from this timeline.

 

[MassGuy]

A day before D.C. plane crash, another jet landing at Reagan National had to ‘go-around’​

Updated
January 30, 2025 at 6:20 p.m. EST8 min ago
NTSB will be on crash scene for ‘as long as it takes’
0:43
National Transportation Safety Board member J. Todd Inman said on Jan. 30 that the agency intends to file a preliminary report within 30 days. (Video: Reuters)

1 min
Just 24 hours before the collision of American Eagle Flight 5342 and an Army Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan National Airport on Wednesday, another jet trying to land there had to make a second approach after a helicopter appeared near its flight path, according to an audio recording from air traffic control.


That plane, Republic Airways Flight 4514, eventually landed safely, flight tracker maps show.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2025/01/30/dc-plane-crash-updates-helicopter-potomac-reagan-airport/

 

[Lucy6226]

Does anyone remember the videos from Driver's Ed involving the train? There was a video where the whole car load of ppl was looking to the right, proceeded to cross the tracks, then BAM, the train hits from the left. That's how I can see this happening. The entire crew is focused on the wrong plane, then BAM, they collide with a different plane.

I think that's what's likely happened. There was another plane on the radar to the right, I wonder if simple human error is to blame. Black Hawk confirmed they had seen the plane and would manoeuvre around it...I think they were looking at the wrong plane. They were behind the plane, the other plane would have been more noticeable to them maybe?

I don't know it's hard to think experienced pilots could make such a mistake. The alternative is not worth thinking about.

All moo

 

[Cartie]

“Those goggles are designed for situations where the only light is moonlight or starlight. If you already have a lot of things moving around and blinking, it could throw things off,” the pilot tells PEOPLE. “They could make it harder to see what's going on in the sky.”

This might sound really stupid as I have no idea about night goggles but when I first read that was what they were viewing through I wonder if they might have been blinded momentarily (maybe from oncoming plane lights)

 

[SouthAussie]

"Three students and six parents of the Fairfax County Public School system in Virginia died in Wednesday’s tragic aircraft collision, Superintendent Dr. Michelle Reid said in a statement.

“What we know at this time is that three of our FCPS students and six of our FCPS parents were lost, affecting multiple schools and departments here at FCPS,” Reid said. Two of the parents were current or former school division staff members, she added.

School officials are not releasing the names of individuals due to “privacy needs and concerns for those who are directly involved.” "

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/plane-crash-dca-potomac-washington-dc-01-29-25#cm6jy56i200003b6m9rmdpddq

 

[SouthAussie]

More than 40 deceased have been recovered ....


Dive operations are done for the day due to daylight, conditions on the water and a growing sense among rescuers that most of the victims that can be reached without removing the fuselage from the water have already been recovered, a law enforcement source tells CNN.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/plane-crash-dca-potomac-washington-dc-01-29-25#cm6jxm0cy00203b6qm6v333ix