DCA - American Airlines passenger plane collides with Blackhawk over the Potomac River, all 67 on both dead, 29 Jan 2025

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  • #721
Does it look to you all like the black hawk dipped lower towards the airline?
I think it's the camera angle that is contributing to this looking like the helicopter is going down. We will really understand better when we know the altitude for each second prior to the crash.
 
  • #722
There are too many strings attached to the voluntary resigning. And it takes a hell of a lot longer to train ATC's than 8 months. Working with the threat of firing, no matter what profession you are in, takes a toll on your physical and mental wellbeing, which means you aren't at the top of your game. When your job holds people's lives in the balance, that is terrifying.
I think equally terrifying though is ATCs staying in the job when they are burnt out and should not be in the job. Not having enough ATCs can be adjusted to by reducing flights or spreading them out into the overnight hours when things tend to slow down. If there is the appearance of enough ATCs and many of them are burnt out and/or struggling, then this would be harder to determine and flights continue on and mistakes are more likely to be made.
 
  • #723
The key, to me, is the cockpit recorder and the data recorder from the helicopter.
That will probably explain everything.
 
  • #724
I find it curious that they have announced two of the blackhawk crew but haven't released the female crew member. I expect that to happen soon, not sure why two are known but she's not. Maybe problems notifying her next of kin? IDK
The DOD has notification rules that prevent the release of the names of the deceased until next of kin are notified. The name can be released 24h after notification of next of kin.
 
  • #725
The DOD has notification rules that prevent the release of the names of the deceased until next of kin are notified. The name can be released 24h after notification of next of kin.
The reason we may know the identities of the other two could be because their families have spoken out and the media released it.

I get sick to my stomach when I think of the senseless loss of life and all of the pain their loved ones are going through.
 
  • #726
The key, to me, is the cockpit recorder and the data recorder from the helicopter.
That will probably explain everything.

I don’t think blackhawk helicopters have blackbox/data recorders.

Jmo
 
  • #727

Jan 31, 2025

The 74-year-old added: 'Nighttime always makes things different about seeing other aircraft — basically all you can do is see the lights on them.

'You have to try to figure out: Are they above you or below you? Or how far away? Or which direction are they headed? Everything is harder at night.'

[..]

He said that it was apparent that at least one of the pilots was able to see the other, and that the air traffic controller was not required to step in to separate the two.

[..]

When asked about Reagan National Airport, Sully added that it was considered a special airport that pilots needed specific training on due to its short runways and its proximity to other airports.
 
  • #728
I’m just
 
  • #729
I find it curious that they have announced two of the blackhawk crew but haven't released the female crew member. I expect that to happen soon, not sure why two are known but she's not. Maybe problems notifying her next of kin? IDK

It may have to do with her not being found underwater yet?
 
  • #730
I find it curious that they have announced two of the blackhawk crew but haven't released the female crew member. I expect that to happen soon, not sure why two are known but she's not. Maybe problems notifying her next of kin? IDK

It may have to do with her not being found underwater yet?
 
  • #731
  • #732
Accurate information about the ATC profession:


When you think about air traffic control, the image of men and women in the tower of an airport probably comes to mind. However, the air traffic control system is much more complex than that. In this article, we will examine air traffic control in the United States. We'll follow a flight from departure to arrival, looking at the various controllers involved, what each one does, the equipment they use and how they are trained.


How Air Traffic Control Works


all imo
 
  • #733
The reason we may know the identities of the other two could be because their families have spoken out and the media released it.

I get sick to my stomach when I think of the senseless loss of life and all of the pain their loved ones are going through.

I read this morning that they had not yet retrieved the body of the third person in the Blackhawk. Perhaps they require official ID before they release the name.
 
  • #734
"Young family of four
among victims
wiped out in DC plane crash.

1738346961603.jpeg


The Livingstons, from Ashburn,
were on their way home from Wichita,
after 11-year-old Alydia and 14-year-old Everly had participated
in the 2025 US Figure Skating Championships.

The two sisters died alongside
their dad, Peter, and mom, Donna."

RIP :(

 
  • #735
My guess is that it is correct.

In defense of the ATC, there seems to be nothing unusual about the presence of the Blackhawk and how the ATC handled the Blackhawk. Rather, the following seems to be the norm:

- Military helicopters routinely fly that route- even though the airspace is congested and even at night. ATC and commercial pilots may not like it, but the military can set their own agenda.

- When handling military traffic, ATC advises the helicopter crews of civilian traffic, then allows the helicopter in under procedures "A" and "B".

In short, though everybody can always do something better with 20/20 hindsight, my guess is that the actions of the ATC were with in the safety norm (well, the safety norms before the disaster).

Well, “set own agenda” may not work, and here is a “civil” example from own life that’s far from military. It is a different situation, but the same.

Police and EMT ambulance have a siren they can use on our common roads if there is an emergency (an accident, a sick person or maybe chasing a criminal.) They have this system, and if I hear an ambulance (or even a police) siren, I try to immediately give them way, and so does everyone else. It is a burden on the traffic, but may be necessary, if used only when needed.

We sort of assume that a different entity, in a different form and conditions, can use our regular traffic roads for a different reason, and it is necessary.

But if every police car, every EMT ambulance start using this siren and high-speed driving, especially during high-traffic hours, without a reason, just because they can, it will create havoc on the roads and end up with an accident.

Same here: a civil airport allows to use military transport because it is DC and who knows what emergencies can happen? In some cases, it might be helpful.

But if military helicopters overuse the already-strained system, a disaster is going to happen.

I think it is that example. A training accident involving just the Blackhawk, say, above the Potomac, would have been bad for the military, but once the helicopter uses the fact that it is allowed to use the civil airport, and flies over it, it overburdens already heavily used system, and creates a catastrophe.

It doesn’t matter who the pilots of the helicopter were. I posted from the very beginning that obviously, they didn’t plan to hit a plane full of “kids and moms”, sorry, and end up dead themselves in a cold river, upside down. The chance of an accident is high in a congested airport. It gets higher if you introduce other factors.
 
  • #736
Does it look to you all like the black hawk dipped lower towards the airline?
It is a stunning video, isn’t it? At least from this angle the heli appears to aim for the plane. That said, I know from watching football that viewing angles can matter, so maybe it wasn’t as much of a dip to aim as it looks? IDK. Don’t the helicopters have near impact alert systems? Heck, my cheap car flashes an icon when I leave the driving lane for a second. It makes no sense.

jmo
 
  • #737
I am 100% okay with allowing some to resign if that is what they desire. Why would we want people working in these positions if they really don't want to. We need qualified people who WANT to be there in these jobs. Flight loads might need to decrease for a while so that new hires can be properly trained. Allowing people to resign does not mean that the goal is to operate with less ATC going forward.

Edited to add a few more thoughts.

We know ATC is one of the most stressful jobs and with one of the highest suicide rates. If ATCs have been staying on the job because of understaffing.. maybe feeling bad to leave their colleagues even more short staffed, then this is a good preemptive move so that those that really NEED to move on, have a way to do so. We need to hire more ATCs so seeing exactly where the target needs to be is a good idea. Allow those that need to leave to do so, get a target number of how many need to be hired to make things safe.. then do it.

Edited one more time..

The resignations are also not immediate as my understanding is they would be to make it known now that is your wish and then it's sometime in Sept. that the person would be finished working. So it seems knowing how many need to be hired would be able to be determined now before the date in Sept. when those workers would be leaving their jobs.
What do you mean about 'allowing' people to resign? Resigning and fleeing are two different things. In legitimate and responsible businesses they know the impact mass layoffs or voluntary retirements have when strings are attached. eg. do this now and you'll get a severance package or be prepared to get fired without any financial cushion. Disemboweling businesses is what a hostile takeover does.

Respectfully, you throw that word 'qualified' around as if there are throngs of people in the aviation industry who aren't qualified for the job. It takes 5 years for an ATC to be able to do the job solo. Five years. You know what drives the increase in air traffic? It's customer demand. Do you really think the American public will be okay with a drastic reduction in air travel while hundreds of ATC go through the training for their jobs which takes years. Working in a toxic environment where the threat of losing your job is a terrible way to do business and that more than anything else: increased traffic, over stressed airports that struggle to provide services is a sure fire way to see more and more of these tragic events.
 
  • #738
I don’t think blackhawk helicopters have blackbox/data recorders.

Jmo

They apparently do, but it hasn’t been recovered yet.

 
  • #739
I am 100% okay with allowing some to resign if that is what they desire. Why would we want people working in these positions if they really don't want to. We need qualified people who WANT to be there in these jobs. Flight loads might need to decrease for a while so that new hires can be properly trained. Allowing people to resign does not mean that the goal is to operate with less ATC going forward.

Edited to add a few more thoughts.

We know ATC is one of the most stressful jobs and with one of the highest suicide rates. If ATCs have been staying on the job because of understaffing.. maybe feeling bad to leave their colleagues even more short staffed, then this is a good preemptive move so that those that really NEED to move on, have a way to do so. We need to hire more ATCs so seeing exactly where the target needs to be is a good idea. Allow those that need to leave to do so, get a target number of how many need to be hired to make things safe.. then do it.

Edited one more time..

The resignations are also not immediate as my understanding is they would be to make it known now that is your wish and then it's sometime in Sept. that the person would be finished working. So it seems knowing how many need to be hired would be able to be determined now before the date in Sept. when those workers would be leaving their jobs.

It is complicated.
I spoke to a man who IMHO would have made a perfect ATC. He said he thought about it himself, but he never went above HS diploma. Probably thinking it was enough, but no! There are schools around training ATCs but ATCs have to learn for two years.

And then there is an age cutoff, 34 years I think, because the industry expects you to work a certain time till retirement. He can barely make it. If he decides to give it more thinking, and he may, because he is very early Gen Z or very late millennial, he will be out of that bracket. But that age group “takes longer to make life decisions” in general, that’s it.
 
  • #740
It is a stunning video, isn’t it? At least from this angle the heli appears to aim for the plane. That said, I know from watching football that viewing angles can matter, so maybe it wasn’t as much of a dip to aim as it looks? IDK. Don’t the helicopters have near impact alert systems? Heck, my cheap car flashes an icon when I leave the driving lane for a second. It makes no sense.

jmo
This might be an insane (and unintelligent) question, but I wonder if the speed of the plane creates some sort of "pull" towards it when a smaller aircraft (helicopter) gets close enough. I have been on an interstate in a smaller car and felt a "pull" when a tractor trailer flies by me. Does anyone with greater aviation or physics experience think this is plausible? Not offended in anyway if this theory is debunked, just trying to understand why it appears from some videos that the helicopter flies into the plane.

ETA - This scenario makes more sense and the two plane graphic in the article are helpful "Experts believe the helicopter pilot may have maneuvered to avoid the wrong plane — a jet of the same model that was taking off farther away — since the controller never relayed the precise location of the American Airlines flight until it was too late."
 
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