DCA - American Airlines passenger plane collides with Blackhawk over the Potomac River, all 67 on both dead, 29 Jan 2025

[hooziewhutz]

Probably would be easier to just keep helicopters away from this airports runway approach areas, especially at night. JMO.

At least later into the night/early morning when the traffic is lighter, my god! These are members of the military who are training. Are they too tired to safely fly at 3am, as if no threat of an emergency operation will ever arise? imo.

 

[Seattle1]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2025/01/30/dc-plane-crash-updates-helicopter-potomac-reagan-airport/

Just 24 hours before the collision of American Eagle Flight 5342 and an Army Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan National Airport on Wednesday, another jet trying to land there had to make a second approach after a helicopter appeared near its flight path, according to an audio recording from air traffic control. That plane, Republic Airways Flight 4514, eventually landed safely.

There were red flags happening at Reagan National Airport.
Imo.

Geez...I'm really tiring of these sensationalizing headlines and will file this one with that of the DCA Tower being short staffed on Wednesday when MSM also reported it's been short staffed for years (conveniently omitted from the headlines)!

What we know about Republic Airways Flight 4514 is that the pilot did a go around on Tuesday after ATC advised there was a BH in the vicinity. There's no ATC transmission even suggesting they were directed to divert! And no doubt this would be all over the news if this was true.

It's a fact that BKs are near DCA, and the Republic Airways pilot may have had several reasons to reposition for landing. Per FlightAware, there is nothing about Tuesday's flight 4514 that sets it apart from two weeks history for flight 4514....

As a million mile+ flyer -- fly arounds happen. Whether it be weather, an animal, air craft ahead too slow, or precautionary, you have to trust the pilot doing what is best. MOO

YX4514 (RPA4514) Republic Flight Tracking and History 28-Jan-2025 (KBDL-KDCA) - FlightAware

Track Republic (YX) #4514 flight from Bradley Intl to Reagan National

www.flightaware.com

 

[Chimera]

Geez...I'm really tiring of these sensationalizing headlines and will file this one with that of the DCA Tower being short staffed on Wednesday when MSM also reported it's been short staffed for years (conveniently omitted from the headlines)!

What we know about Republic Airways Flight 4514 is that the pilot did a go around on Tuesday after ATC advised there was a BH in the vicinity. There's no ATC transmission even suggesting they were directed to divert! And no doubt this would be all over the news if this was true.

It's a fact that BKs are near DCA, and the Republic Airways pilot may have had several reasons to reposition for landing. Per FlightAware, there is nothing about Tuesday's flight 4514 that sets it apart from two weeks history for flight 4514....

As a million mile+ flyer -- fly arounds happen. Whether it be weather, an animal, air craft ahead too slow, or precautionary, you have to trust the pilot doing what is best. MOO

YX4514 (RPA4514) Republic Flight Tracking and History 28-Jan-2025 (KBDL-KDCA) - FlightAware

Track Republic (YX) #4514 flight from Bradley Intl to Reagan National

www.flightaware.com

Oh, no --- Not disagreeing with your viewpoint at all.
I think you explained it better than I could.
This was one of the articles that showed up when I tried to find out more about the other airplane.

I also think there were problems for years going back, as in too much activity and not enough staff.
When I mentioned 'red flags' I meant going back for a long time, and IMO it's very sad if it took the deaths of these precious people to force a change.
Guess my post was vague, but it wasn't meant to be.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Omo.

 

[branmuffin]

Right, its standard operating procedure after these accidents for the leaders (Secy Transportation, etc.) to express sympathy, state what facts are known about the event, then carefully explain that NTSB is investigating and will provide a summary soon.

They usually have to repeat many times that everyone has to be patient for the NTSB preliminary report and later final report. They'll usually say whether the black box has been located, talk about family and retrieving victims, who is working, play 911 and ATC recordings, but most don't speculate.

The news media understands these rules and reports as best they can with the information that's available - interviews with witnesses, aviation experts, etc. It's usually enough. It has to be. NTSB has to do their job without undue influence from the government, media, airline execs, etc. Those are the rules of the game and everyone has been following them since at least the early 1960s.

Frankly, I was kind of surprised to see the CEO of American Airlines quickly declaring they weren't at fault. Maybe I'm wrong, but the CEO's don't usually make such a declarative statement so early. They may not be at fault, but there's a process, procedures to follow. Wait until NTSB gives a report.

JMO

Maybe American Airlines made that statement because back in 2023 some House representatives presented legislation to increase the airport traffic. Some airlines agreed with the legislation. Other lawmakers opposed the legislation saying the airport was already dealing with huge flight volumes. The bill was called Direct Access to the Capitol Act which was a pretty flagrant indicator as to who would benefit from the increased flights. One Rep said the bill was to provide consumers with more choice and was backed by Delta Airlines. American Airlines, Alaska Airlines and United Airlines opposed the bill. So that might be why American Airlines is stating so vociferously they weren't at fault since it was their plane that lost crew and passengers.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/2799

 

[branmuffin]

Someone said that they hoped the controller name didn’t get out, then someone said it was a female voice and then it went on from there, iirc.

I think it was the choppers fault who ever was flying it.

It’s obvious to me that the most qualified should get the jobs of pilot or controller.

Jmo

Qualified people still make mistakes.

I feel like safety should be above all else and if flight controllers are short staffed, then there should be a reduction in planes arriving/leaving. I understand this would mess up connecting flights and so on, but if there aren't enough ATC's to safely communicate with ALL aircraft, then there just aren't enough.

Would they allow commercial planes to fly without 2 pilots? I think not. So why is a heavily congested area with multiple airports and military bases, along with key places like the Pentagon, White House, and Capitol.. all within a short distance away allowed to be controlled like this without enough staff to get it done safely?

And yet ATCs were among the federal employees who were given the option to resign and advise the administration before Feb 6 2025. How very odd when it's been known for at least two year that nearly all airports in the US are understaffed and NEED extra ATCs.

 

[branmuffin]

Air traffic controller was doing the job of two people during DC plane crash due to tower being understaffed, FAA says

The air traffic controller working at the time of the deadly plane-helicopter crash in Washington was doing the work of two people, the Federal Aviation Administration said.

nypost.com

Air traffic controller was doing the job of two people during crash, FAA says

That's very sad. I can't imagine what will happen to him. He's damned either way even if it's established the BH pilot bears the blame.

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Well, Hanlon's Razor still applies. I can definitely see, looking at a busy sky video from yesterday, how accidents can happen. And while we are there, "experienced crew" means the pilots have accumulated many hours flying this helicopter. It significantly lowers the risk of an accident, because of their experience, but logically, also increases it because statistically, if you spend all your time flying, sooner or later you'll collide with some object in the sky. That is why Sully had a website discussing catastrophes long before one happened.



It is DC airport. It serves DC, the political center of the country. So I can see how it can combine a lot of traffic.

I agree. When two planes collide everyone is trying to point a figure at someone because in their mind someone has to be responsible. But sometimes event are just happenstance. Like bird strikes. How do you assign blame when a plane sucks about 30 Canada Geese into their engines? Who could even anticipate such an event?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Oh, no --- Not disagreeing with your viewpoint at all.
I think you explained it better than I could.
This was one of the articles that showed up when I tried to find out more about the other airplane.

I also think there were problems for years going back, as in too much activity and not enough staff.
When I mentioned 'red flags' I meant going back for a long time, and IMO it's very sad if it took the deaths of these precious people to force a change.
Guess my post was vague, but it wasn't meant to be.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Omo.

When an aircraft is instructed by ATC to go around it means that the current situation is not conducive for a safe landing.

The article that you linked tells us about such an incident at the same airport the day before the crash that is the topic of this thread, so it's totally relevant to this discussion. JMO.

 

[Seattle1]

Analyzing the Mid-Air Collision Over the Potomac: A Detailed Examination of ATC Communications​

Sadly -- it appears the Black Hawk most likely saw the aircraft that was behind CRJ/Flight 5342 in approach to land DCA.

 

[Charlot123]

The Skater Who Stuck a Triple Axel Before Boarding the Flight

Cory Haynos was among several budding figure-skating stars who died in the plane crash near Reagan National Airport.

www.nytimes.com

Cory Haynos, who described himself on his Instagram as “Figure skater/basketball” and wrote “John 3:36 (look it up)”, was among those who died. His parents, Roger and Stephanie Haynos, died with him. The Bible verse says that people who believe in Jesus will have eternal life.

Cory Haynos’s training friend, Eddie Zhou, was on the plane, too. According to neighbors and co-workers of the family, both of his parents also died. Like Haynos, Zhou had executed a triple axel at the camp, Mitchell said.

How the crash feels to me is simply “it was the plane full of kids, their moms and dads”. The same way one would feel reading about a school bus collision, you know? So sad.

Yes, fair enough.
Still wouldn't want anyone overseeing a position that requires peak alertness to be in danger of making errors, just saying.

Which is why I'd never be able to handle either occupation mentioned.
I do hope the ATC doesn't become targeted if it wasn't their fault specifically ?
In some cases where they've worked or are working a double shift or overtime, is there any way to call in a relief if they feel they're starting to fear making a mistake ?
Idk if that's even possible.
Imo.

As long as the ATCs followed the instructions, they shouldn’t be blamed or targeted.

In hindsight, there is always a better way to do things, and someone said “flying regulations are written in blood”, and even the ATC-pilot communication language changes to reflect new knowledge and avoid mistakes. But, it is all post factum. As long as the ATC acted according to the rules, doing what most of ATCs in his shoes would have done, he should be fine.

To add: after the collision, these overworked ATCs had to handle the mess, the traffic, and to clear and close the airport.

They are feeling the same way we do now, only much worse.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

State of play: The flight was en route from Wichita, Kansas to Washington, D.C., when the plane and helicopter collided.

• The American Airlines flight attendants were based out of Charlotte, an Association of Flight Attendants spokesperson confirmed to Axios.
• The Communication Workers of America, a labor union, said two members of the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA were on the plane. They did not immediately name them.
• Doug Zeghibe, the CEO of the Skating Club of Boston, confirmed at a briefing Thursday that "to the best of their knowledge" 14 skaters were on board the flight, returning home from a development camp put on in Wichita by U.S. Figure Skating.
• United Association, a union representing plumbers and other service technicians, said Thursday that at least five members were on the flight. Four of them were members of Maryland-based Steamfitters United Association Local 602. They were not immediately identified by name.

Zoom in: Two Chinese citizens were also on board, China's state media reported the country's embassy in D.C. as saying.

https://www.axios.com/2025/01/30/dc-plane-crash-victims-list-american-airlines-5342

Jan. 31, 12:30 a.m. ESTThe FAA’s preliminary report on the incident noted that the staffing at the air traffic control tower was not “normal,” pointing to the fact that a single air traffic controller was handling both helicopter and plane traffic, the Associated Press reported.

The New York Times reported that the handling of airplane traffic and helicopter traffic is usually handled by two separate controllers until 9.30 p.m. everyday

However on Wednesday evening, an air traffic control supervisor merged the two jobs before 9:30 p.m. (the collision occurred shortly before 9:00 p.m. local time) and allowed one air traffic controller to leave early, the Times report added.

D.C. Plane Crash Live Updates: Black Boxes Recovered From Plane And Helicopter

Sixty-seven people died in a collision between a Bombardier CRJ700 regional jet operated by PSA Airlines and a military Black Hawk helicopter.

www.forbes.com

 

[SouthAussie]

It sounds as if military and commercial flights can be separated by as little as 350 feet vertically and horizontally at that airport (don't know if that also applies at any other airports). Which doesn't seem to leave much room between them if any aircraft has drifted a little off its flight path.

There was also a Filipino police officer on the flight.



Senator Maria Cantwell ... questioned the safety of military and commercial flights separated by as little as 350 feet (107 m) vertically and horizontally, reports Reuters.

“The Philippine National Police mourns the tragic loss of police colonel Pergentino N. Malabed" ..... Manila was notified that a body carrying Malabed’s passport was recovered from the Potomac
Malabed and two other officers had flown to the US to test personnel vests that the Philippine police planned to purchase, reports AFP. Malabed then headed onwards alone intending “to pay a courtesy call” to the police attache of the Philippine embassy in Washington.

Washington DC plane crash: ‘black box’ data recorder recovered from Black Hawk helicopter – as it happened

Officials say over 100 family members of victims are in the Washington area for briefings and that every air traffic controller involved is under intense scrutiny

www.theguardian.com

 

[SusanDonim]

So Congress added more air traffic to this airport that was known to be extremely short staffed on ATC?!? SMH

Owens Secures New DCA Slots - Burgess Owens Seems so.

 

[Izzylizzy]

BBM:

Exactly.
And considering where the helicopter was doing their training I would say it was/is the perfect storm.
I have no knowledge of flight but my first question was what the hell was the Black Hawk doing there?

'Helicopters flying along Potomac frequently pose dangers to passenger jets'​

'On Tuesday night, just 24 hours before a deadly collision between a military helicopter and a regional jet at Reagan National Airport, a different passenger jet coming in for a landing at the airport alerted the tower it had to abort. The reason: risk of possible collision with a helicopter.

A similar situation played out less than a week earlier, on Jan. 23, when a flight from Charlotte suddenly pulled out of its approach at National. The captain informed passengers that he was tracking a helicopter and needed to abort the landing.

“They had to circle back around because there was a helicopter in the flight path,” Richard Hart, a passenger returning from a business trip, recalled the pilot announcing. “At the time I found it odd. ... Now I find it disturbingly tragic.”

The two scrubbed landings within a week illustrate the heightened danger posed by frequent military helicopter flights adjacent to the busy airport, which have been the source of close calls and worries about crashes for years.'

MSN

 

[Betty P]

Owens Secures New DCA Slots - Burgess Owens Seems so.

FAA has been thrown into chaos because Elon Musk and the president forced the head of the FAA to leave his job.

Today, all of our federal agencies are a mess. They're all in crisis because Trump has fired all the heads and threatened all their funding. (Sen. Chris Murphy on CNN this morning)

I feel badly for everyone trying to do their jobs, keep the country safe, while all this chaos is going on. Fortunately agencies, including FAA and NTSB, have set procedures and rules for how they operate. But so many programs have been suspended because of the presidents new orders and firings.

Leaderless FAA begins investigation of Washington plane crash

Former chief resigned 10 days ago, after Elon Musk, a close adviser to Donald Trump, called for him to quit

www.theguardian.com

Re: Expansion of flights into DCA in recent legislation, I heard one congressperson yesterday mention the flight from Kansas was one of the new flights added to DCA traffic. I suppose there are some members who have to return from their states via Dulles or Baltimore, which can be troublesome with legendary traffic jams. There are no easy answers. JMO

 

[Elley Mae]

I feel badly for everyone trying to do their jobs, keep the country safe, while all this chaos is going on. Fortunately agencies, including FAA and NTSB, have set procedures and rules for how they operate. But so many programs have been suspended because of the presidents new orders and firings.

Leaderless FAA begins investigation of Washington plane crash

Former chief resigned 10 days ago, after Elon Musk, a close adviser to Donald Trump, called for him to quit

www.theguardian.com

Re: Expansion of flights into DCA in recent legislation, I heard one congressperson yesterday mention the flight from Kansas was one of the new flights added to DCA traffic. I suppose there are some members who have to return from their states via Dulles or Baltimore, which can be troublesome with legendary traffic jams. There are no easy answers. JMO

Traffic jams at bwi? On the the roads or runways?

I live within 5 miles of bwi and fly out of reagan to ok city because it’s a direct flight. Bwi stopped direct flights to ok city. Would never drive to dulles.

 

[Betty P]

Traffic jams at bwi? On the the roads or runways?

I live within 5 miles of bwi and fly out of reagan to ok city because it’s a direct flight. Bwi stopped direct flights to ok city. Would never drive to dulles.

Oops! On the roads. Apologies for not being clear.

I usually use BWI when going to DC. Fares and schedules are good. I've gotten stuck quite a few times in rush hour traffic when taking the shuttle into DC. Agree, Dulles is pretty far away. I wonder why they thought that would be a viable alternative to DCI back in the day?

 

[Elley Mae]

Has the third person on the blackhawk been identified?

 

[Betty P]

Has the third person on the blackhawk been identified?

Not that I can find, only two men identified so far.

Devastated widow reveals Black Hawk pilot killed in DC plane crash

A second soldier on board the doomed Black Hawk helicopter has been identified following a deadly mid-air collision with an American Airlines plane.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[iamshadow21]

Has the third person on the blackhawk been identified?

Only Eaves and O'Hara identified so far, but I believe I read somewhere yesterday that the third crew member of the Blackhawk was female.

Here are the victims of the Washington, DC, plane crash

A group of figure skaters, their coaches and family members were among the passengers of the flight.

www.wxii12.com

EDIT: Yeah, this article says there was a female pilot, so I guess look out for her name to be released sometimes in the coming days.

Black Hawk crew involved in DC crash made up of 'top pilots' with thousands of hours of experience

The crew of the Army Black Hawk helicopter involved in the deadly collision with a jetliner had thousands of hours of flight experience.

6abc.com

 

[Dotta]

"All the mistakes that led to DC plane crash.​

Insiders and a preliminary internal FAA report
have started to reveal catastrophic failures leading up to the aviation disaster
that killed 67 people, including three soldiers, Wednesday night.

It has also emerged that the Army helicopter,
which was carrying three soldiers, involved in the collision
might have also deviated from its approved flight path.

The outlet again spoke with insiders that said the Sikorsky H-60 Black Hawk helicopter
was not on its approved route and flying higher than it should have been.

Approval had been given for the helicopter
to fly no higher than 200 feet
along the east side of the Potomac River,
where it would have avoided the passenger jet."

All the catastrophic mistakes that led to DC plane crash

An air traffic controller at Reagan National was left to handle both helicopter traffic and manage planes - which should have been a divided duty.

www.dailymail.co.uk