Dead Folks and Decomp *WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTOS IN OPENING POST*#2

[Harmony 2]

With the adipocere that was on the papertowel found in the trash bag, would it be possible to get DNA from that substance????

No, adipocere does not yield DNA according to Dr. Lyle (link posted above)

 

[21merc7]

With the adipocere that was on the papertowel found in the trash bag, would it be possible to get DNA from that substance????

Found something from Valhall, very interesting:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/?p=675

Even if it did yield DNA and we do not know how to test yet, the paper towel could have been far from such seepings and therefore yield nothing. DNA is a very particular science. Gets complicated. Also, DNA can be manipulated to look as if something or someone was there, but that is not the purpose of this thread or the paper towel.

 

[21merc7]

Good morning, friends. One of the most important things I'm learning is that there is a vast number of factors that determine what happens and when to a body after death. Far many more factors than I'd ever been aware of before. It seems the correct answer to just about anything would be "It depends...". This is some heavy duty learning for my old brain.

(Bless this sweet, beautiful, precious little baby. Guide us to the answers of what happened to her. We love you, Caylee.)

Yep, that is why is nearly impossible to find internet results, arghhhhhhhhh!!!

 

[wenwe4]

See post # 16 by madjgnlaw

It appears adipocere is frequently associated with bodies submerged in water or a soggy enviroment - wondering how soggy was that trunk? Adipocere forms from the chemical change that happens with body fats/oils combining with pH factors from it's surrounding area. I would assume since it references "saponification" often which is the chemical change from oil & lye to soap, it means the pH factors are highly alkaline to change body oils/fats to adipocere.

 

[Amity]

Taphonomy of Child-sized Remains in Shallow Grave and Surface Deposit Scenarios

http://ecommons.txstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=anthroptad


OUTDOORS IN CENTRAL TEXAS

http://ecommons.txstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1004&context=anthroptad&unstamped=1
_____________________________
Above quote from BeanE, respectfully shortened for space.

I loved all the sites/links that have been listed and I'm already deep into reading the first one.

I found several paragraphs that were really, REALLY interesting and could almost be used as our own starting point w/r/t Precious Caylee.

Below is information......they started with 30 lb. pigs and placed the pigs in various locations to check the rate of decomp under various conditions.
Very interesting read, Thank you, BeanE!

1.6 Taphonomic Studies on Child​

‐Sized Remains​

In 1998, the FBI’s NCAVC conducted research examining the taphonomy
of decompositional changes, predator scavenging, and the extent of remains
scattering on pig carcasses (Morton and Lord 2006). This experiment took into
account the various ways that child​

‐sized homicide victims can be deposited in
real‐life scenarios. The pigs weighed around 13.61kg (30lbs) and were placed in a
wooded area in Virginia in a variety of scenarios: surface deposit with no
covering, surface deposit covered with tree branches and dead fall, surface
deposit in rolled up carpet, shallow burial (less than 1ft), and suspended by rope
from a tree. Each pig, except for the hanging pig, was reduced to skeletal​

components within 12 days,...........

More Here / Page 13: http://ecommons.txstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=anthroptad

 

[wenwe4]

Rigor mortis begins 3 hrs after death for usually 30 hrs to 72 hrs. (see link @ post #16). Given the Texas study (thanks Amity & BeanE) was conducted with temps ranging approx. 65 degrees low to 95 degrees high where skeletonization happened by 12 days. If there in fact was adipocere on the paper towels in the trunk, I would assume it was moist if not soggy in the trunk. Furthermore, human fats/oils would have had to be present on the paper towels.
2.6 days = 62.4 hrs (if my math skills are still intact). Probably rigor was ending (just my assumption) and KC could finally move the body at that point.

 

[Linz]

See post # 16 by madjgnlaw

It appears adipocere is frequently associated with bodies submerged in water or a soggy enviroment - wondering how soggy was that trunk? Adipocere forms from the chemical change that happens with body fats/oils combining with pH factors from it's surrounding area. I would assume since it references "saponification" often which is the chemical change from oil & lye to soap, it means the pH factors are highly alkaline to change body oils/fats to adipocere.

Rigor mortis begins 3 hrs after death for usually 30 hrs to 72 hrs. (see link @ post #16). Given the Texas study (thanks Amity & BeanE) was conducted with temps ranging approx. 65 degrees low to 95 degrees high where skeletonization happened by 12 days. If there in fact was adipocere on the paper towels in the trunk, I would assume it was moist if not soggy in the trunk. Furthermore, human fats/oils would have had to be present on the paper towels.
2.6 days = 62.4 hrs (if my math skills are still intact). Probably rigor was ending (just my assumption) and KC could finally move the body at that point.

And chlorine is an alkalide. Someone tell me this doesn't help validate an accidental drowning scenario.

:banghead:



(IMO there's no way this death was accidental. Like many posters here I'm concerned about reasonable doubt.)

 

[BeanE]

I would like to go on record as being completely unconcerned about reasonable doubt. I'm just trying to learn as much as possible prior to trial so I can follow along more easily.

 

[Linz]

Linz;

Until the trial we don't know about chlorine and alkalide. Only the truly tested matter, and matter that cannot be disputed, will come into Court testimony. Is there any reason to think this is a legal argument for the jurors to be? If so, what will the "star experts" say to dispute? Too much time between testing= nothing. I am not certain what other than the decomp is necessary. I will not be a juror, but, I think it not that important.

Thanks for your response. Like I said, I really know next to nothing about (bio)chemistry, but I remember reading some theorizing on here a while ago that the chloroform results could've been caused by the breakdown of chlorine, so that in combination with the moisture required for adipocere to form is where I was coming from... And yeah, speculating on speculations isn't scientific at all, so I should probably just lurk moar anyway :winkaway:

 

[Ada]

In Florida, everything is moist and soggy.

 

[cecybeans]

In Florida, everything is moist and soggy.

And stinky when the A/C goes off.

 

[Harmony 2]

And chlorine is an alkalide. Someone tell me this doesn't help validate an accidental drowning scenario.

:banghead:



(IMO there's no way this death was accidental. Like many posters here I'm concerned about reasonable doubt.)

The Anthony's used non-chlorine Bacquacil in their pool. It was listed in one of the search warrants.

 

[21merc7]

Thanks for your response. Like I said, I really know next to nothing about (bio)chemistry, but I remember reading some theorizing on here a while ago that the chloroform results could've been caused by the breakdown of chlorine, so that in combination with the moisture required for adipocere to form is where I was coming from... And yeah, speculating on speculations isn't scientific at all, so I should probably just lurk moar anyway :winkaway:

No, don't lurk more. I understand what you are saying now. I never understand anything the first go round, and I rarely post anything that makes sense until I have changed it a few times. Computer communication is a challenge for me, lol. (So, just ignore me.) But, I see exactly what you are asking now, and I do not know the answer.

 

[21merc7]

Rigor mortis begins 3 hrs after death for usually 30 hrs to 72 hrs. (see link @ post #16). Given the Texas study (thanks Amity & BeanE) was conducted with temps ranging approx. 65 degrees low to 95 degrees high where skeletonization happened by 12 days. If there in fact was adipocere on the paper towels in the trunk, I would assume it was moist if not soggy in the trunk. Furthermore, human fats/oils would have had to be present on the paper towels.
2.6 days = 62.4 hrs (if my math skills are still intact). Probably rigor was ending (just my assumption) and KC could finally move the body at that point.

Skeletonized in 12 days, wow, I thought it would take much longer than that.

While questioning about the paper towels, were they were the body was laying? Isn't that the only way to get the adipocere on them?

 

[Tuffy]

Skeletonized in 12 days, wow, I thought it would take much longer than that.

While questioning about the paper towels, were they were the body was laying? Isn't that the only way to get the adipocere on them?

Or adipocere could have been transferred from the body to the car (or anywhere) then wiped with a paper towel. It wouldn't necessarily have to have come in contact with the body directly.

 

[TakeNote]

Or adipocere could have been transferred from the body to the car (or anywhere) then wiped with a paper towel. I wouldn't necessarily have to have come in contact with the body directly.

i know this isnt the paper towel thread....but it does go with what we are talking about.....so delete if i shouldnt ask this question....

i still want to know if body fluids continue thru the process to become adipocere.....if not.....then why was there adipocere on the paper towels in the trash bag from the trunk?....that would mean kc was in contact with the body after the process of adipocere.....(i was thinking maybe checking on the body and steping in some....then wiping it off her shoes?)...or the body had been moved after adipocere started.....oh....so many :waitasec:

if it does continue then it would make since that its from cleaning up after the body was taken to the dumping site....

 

[Tuffy]

i know this isnt the paper towel thread....but it does go with what we are talking about.....so delete if i shouldnt ask this question....

i still want to know if body fluids continue thru the process to become adipocere.....if not.....then why was there adipocere on the paper towels in the trash bag from the trunk?....that would mean kc was in contact with the body after the process of adipocere.....(i was thinking maybe checking on the body and steping in some....then wiping it off her shoes?)...or the body had been moved after adipocere started.....oh....so many :waitasec:

if it does continue then it would make since that its from cleaning up after the body was taken to the dumping site....

I think we're ok to discuss the paper towel/adipocere here. Body fluids will not become adipocere though. Body fats will.

So in order for adipocere to form on the paper towel, it would have needed to have fatty tissue on the paper towel.

I understand your thought process I think, though. There wasn't enough time for the adipocere to form (2.6 days) so Casey would have had to return to the disposal site, come in contact with grave wax on the body, wipe it on the paper towel, then toss it in a trash bag in her trunk.

Is this what you're thinking?

 

[21merc7]

Tuffy;

You answered my question at least! (Love the yawning bunny, miss my old guy.)

Have we found anything on decomp rates comparing toddler to adult? I literally come up with nothing with thousands of search terms, sorry to disappoint.

Merry Christmas All!

 

[Tuffy]

Tuffy;

You answered my question at least! (Love the yawning bunny, miss my old guy.)

Have we found anything on decomp rates comparing toddler to adult? I literally come up with nothing with thousands of search terms, sorry to disappoint.

Merry Christmas All!

I miss my little guy, too. I had a grey mini-lop.

I found an abstract article titled Debugging Decomposition Data—Comparative Taphonomic Studies and the Influence of Insects and Carcass Size on Decomposition Rate

Its from the Journal of Forensic Science. I don't have a subscription, so I can only view the abstract:

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/122677780/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0


From the link:

The major effector of change in rate was insect presence, regardless of depositional environment, species, or season. Body size is significant when carcasses are accessed by insects; when insects are excluded, while bodies are indoors, submerged, or buried, then decomposition progresses at the same rate regardless of body size.

From what it says here, I think a smaller body would decompose faster when exposed to insects. If not access by insects, two bodies would decompose at the same rate regardless of size.

 

[TakeNote]

I think we're ok to discuss the paper towel/adipocere here. Body fluids will not become adipocere though. Body fats will.

So in order for adipocere to form on the paper towel, it would have needed to have fatty tissue on the paper towel.

I understand your thought process I think, though. There wasn't enough time for the adipocere to form (2.6 days) so Casey would have had to return to the disposal site, come in contact with grave wax on the body, wipe it on the paper towel, then toss it in a trash bag in her trunk.

Is this what you're thinking?

yes and no.....LOL.....either kc went back to the dump site....or

transported the body in another way......later.....after the adipocere started....meaning....the body was in the trunk for 2.6 days.....removed ...stashed somewhere....and then transported to the final resting place.....

sorry....im very interested in all of this....stuff i have been wondering about for over a year....but it still is so yucky.....i need to say that in respect to Caylee.....sorry....Caylee this should never had happen to you!

oh.....how does the coffin flies play into this....i know this is not the coffin fly thread.....but do they feed on adipocere?

am i understanding then that there was adipocere on the paper towels....but not body fluids then? or was there both?

and THANK YOU

i think im getting this......