Dead Folks and Decomp *WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTOS IN OPENING POST*#2

[21merc7]

I think there was a lot of discussion on the maggots early on. I have to get ready for work so I can't look it up right now. First we need to know what kind of maggots they were, but anyhow, the eggs would have been laid whenever food source was present and the maggots would hatch whether food was there or not. They could have been eating whatever was on the trunk liner, and any crumbs in the car, etc., they don't need much. It may all be in the old thread, also the life cycle it presented for time line would be there.

ETA: Just did a quick search, I can't find it, but I can never find anything when I try that. May as well have asked a 2 year old to try, they would have better luck, lol! Will try later if I can at work.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

BBM

Devils A; in the spirit of good debate, can you please expand upon what you may think was decomposing in her trunk? I ask seriously as I would like to volley this theory and prove and/or debunk the possibilities. Thank you in advance.

Anyone who wishes to offer up other theory's, please do so. I would really like to get some ideas.

Anything besides lunch meat and pizza (I think that has been discussed at length already). Basically what other animal or mammal.

In my opinion, based on how I interpret the report from Dr. Vass, I do not believe there was ever any human decomp in the trunk. Nor do I believe there was a dead pig in the trunk decomposing. Nor do I believe that there was a dead squirrel in the trunk decomposing. I do believe that there was some sort of matter (food) in the white trash bag that maggots found nutritious enough for a maggot to eat, grow and multiply. Since it is a well known fact how quickly maggots can devour large amounts of food, any food that may have existed in the white trash bag prior to GA picking the car up from the towyard, could have been eaten by the maggots. I believe the fat decompositional substance like adipocere, was some fat decompositional substance like adipocere, but was not adipocere, because if it was adipocere, it could have easily been tested to prove it was adipocere. I believe most studies say that Adipocere takes several weeks to form, and that most studies say that a hair with a death band takes several weeks to months to form. I am aware that it is supposedly possible for Adipocere to form in 2.6 days or less, and the same for the death band to be on a hair, but most of the studies I read about these two items put the time much longer. I do not think the SA is even going to bring the trunk into the picture at trial. I think the majority of the Dr. Vass report was based on items found inside the white trash bag, and I believe the white trash bag was contaminated while sitting in or near the dumpster for 30 hours. I believe the air sample is a novel science, and I do not think it will be allowed in the trial. None of the above has anything to do with proving the premeditated murder, so even if the SA does not use the trunk, they should still be able to prove premeditated murder. JA never mentioned the trunk in his impassioned scenario at the earlier DP hearing.
What I actually believe caused the decomp event in the trunk, was the food that the maggots ate. Dr. HL said there was food in the white trash bag, but we haven’t seen his proof. CSI Bloise said there wasn’t food in the bag, but he threw away his bench notes. If CSI Bloise is absolutely correct, and there was not any food within the white trash bag from the kitchen that had a garbage disposal, and the maggots ate all the human decomp in the trunk, save a few traces of butyric acid, (which personally I believe is a very long stretch for this to happen), and then in searching for more food climbed into the white trash bag where they were ultimately found, then I am wrong. If Dr. HL is correct and there was food in the white trash bag, then it is possible that decomposing food could have been the cause of the horrendous odor, as well as being the cause for the thriving maggots in the white trash bag. All of the above is my opinion only.

 

[LambChop]

Were the maggots from coffin flies or blow flies?

 

[LambChop]

Ohhhhh, I think it will come in. Before the remains were found there may have been a believable argument. Now that there is a body, a lack of a reasonable explanation as to why GA said it smells like a dead body's been in the car, CA's statement of the same, SB stated it smelled like a dead body was in the trunk, the dogs hit on the trunk and Dr. Vass' report.....oh, yes it will come in because it is important. People who can testify that they know what that smell was are very valuable to the case. Looks like another nightmare for defense. jmo

 

[BondJamesBond]

Please don't post suggestions of chemicals, etc. to smell that might be similar to decomp smell. It just not a safe/responsible thing to do. TIA!

 

[21merc7]

Found it! Haven't reread yet, but the fly and maggot thread is here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69646&highlight=maggots

On the last page of above link, there are links to pdf's stating COFFIN FLIES and BLOWFLIES.There is a thread number 2 link at the end of the above link too for continuing maggot/fly discussions. These threads are lengthy but I think we should all recap.

 

[Aedrys]

Wow, heavily argumentative thread here. Kudos to you WS'ers who've provided links and good information that I think a normal juror would actually pay attention to and consider in the court room instead of finding something else to argue endlessly about.

I'm not worried, though. At trial, we'll have experts for both sides, and the prosecution will have something the defense just can't argue - the actual car with the actual smell STILL IN IT. Once the jurors get a whiff of that car - and I know it'll be almost three years out, but still - they will know what was in the back of it, and it ain't going to be spoiled food products or a squirrel. That smell will still be so potent, the jurors noses will be the ultimate decider of what was there, and that will be a human decompositional event.

The jurors will be the only ones who truly know what was or wasn't there by that smell. And you better believe there will be a field trip - I don't think the state is going to hold anything back or be nice to anybody come trial time. The car is their ace in the hole and the defense knows it, otherwise there wouldn't be so much delay, delay, delay. All IMO.

Btw, I have enjoyed the scientific and personal info from experience shared here.

 

[notthatsmart]

I would totally agree with having the jurors take a field trip to the car to smell the trunk first hand. I wish they could make that decision now for later that the bus trip will indeed happen. I think its very important that this takes place.

I wonder if the car is still located in the evidence garage? It would be nice if they could keep it sealed and shrink wrap it somehow to preserve it. I noted in the OJ case the defense was able to establish that many many people had been in the bronco after it was in police hands. This pontiac is very important to the topic of dead folks and decomp and it is prolly the foundation of their case. IMO

 

[21merc7]

I don't know if the jurors will get to go on a field trip, but I am certain it would seal the deal for the prosecution. I would hope they would not have to do that to the 12 people assigned to the case.

As far as sealing it, or number of LE and forensic techs, that will not make a lot of difference for decomp smell. Other factors, hmmm maybe, but not the smell of decomp. (Of course that is just what I think, cannot back that up with any legal documentation, lol.)

 

[JBean]

I see that an earlier post of mine from another thread was carried here and misunderstood a bit.


I did not address the source of the decomp as being human. My point was only that we must acknowledge that the smell:
a) was really bad
and
b) that it was reported as decomp(of some kind) by just about everyone.

If some are of the opinion that the smell was not human decomp there is no problem debating that if anyone else wants to debate it. If you do not want to debate the point, scroll by posts that do.

Remember if you are satisifed with your position and debating the point frustrates you, then just don't debate or argue the point.

 

[magnolia]

I have a couple of questions. I had a dog who liked to pick on skunks, and there was no doubt in anyone’s mind that he had been sprayed by a skunk. That odor was unmistakable and distinctive, and never confused with any other odor.
My first question is, how distinctive is the odor of a decomposing human in comparison with the very distinctive odor of a skunk? I can not think of any odor that is comparable to a skunk, but I have read that the odor of a decomposing human is similar to that of rotting potatoes.
My second question is in regards to the empty processed food containers found in the white trash bag in the trunk. If all the processed food containers were empty, and there was no food in the white trash bag at all, what is the scientific explanation for the presence of maggots inside the white trash bag? I watched the body farm video of maggots devouring a cow, in a hurry. I’m sure these maggots were not members of weight watchers, so I have to wonder what it was they were doing in the white trash bag. I have had the unfortunate experience of being unable to locate a 6 oz piece of steak, in a very large store, that emitted an odor that was almost bad enough to gag a maggot, For 3 weeks this odor just lingered in the air. We finally located the culprit, and disposed of the rotting piece of steak. Once we disposed of the source of the odor, the odor slowly dissipated. After 3 months, there remained a faint odor of rotten meat. The rotten smell from this 6 oz piece of steak covered an area larger than a football field. The temperature in this store was always around 70 degrees. I do not think it would take very much rotting food to cause a horrendous smell in an enclosed environment like the trunk, heated by the florida sun for over two weeks. I also think the thriving maggots would have devoured this rotting food. moo

When you have a plastic bag that once contained food, any residue from that food will draw maggots. When you have empty containers that once contained food in a plastic bag/90+degree temps./in a hot trunk, any residue left from the food will draw maggots. Those nasty little creepy migrating crawlers that are drawn by the slightest smell,won't know there is nothing to eat in the bag until they reach their destination. As long as the maggots smell the food residue intensified by the 90+ degree heat/hot truck/plastic bag,they will continue searching in the bag for something substantial to eat. This is just a common sense logical explanation from someone who lives in the very hot South and is familiar with the nasty habits of maggots. Unfortunatley for KC, the smell from food residue will attract a few maggots, but to humans, the smell will be slightly unpleasant.

I have no idea if the odor from a skunk is in anyway similiar to that of human decomp.

I do know there was a missing Caylee. She was later discovered dead within a few blocks of the Anthony home. I do know there are many people that have confirmed the smell being that of human decomp. Why would I even consider that the smell came from a skunk? When the 12 Jurors are deliberating the case, do you think they will consider the smell came from another source? Will they think it is just coincidence this smell was discovered at the approximate time Caylee went missing, knowing she was later found dead? How about the hair? How about the cadaver dog?

Not to mention, how many people do you know have had a lingering odor in their car, that would come close to putting off an odor as strong as human decomp. I don't know of one.

 

[magnolia]

I would totally agree with having the jurors take a field trip to the car to smell the trunk first hand. I wish they could make that decision now for later that the bus trip will indeed happen. I think its very important that this takes place.

I wonder if the car is still located in the evidence garage? It would be nice if they could keep it sealed and shrink wrap it somehow to preserve it. I noted in the OJ case the defense was able to establish that many many people had been in the bronco after it was in police hands. This pontiac is very important to the topic of dead folks and decomp and it is prolly the foundation of their case. IMO

I'm not making the connection?? How does "many, many people in OJ's bronco" relate to the pontiac & the smell of decomp?

 

[RR0004]

When you have a plastic bag that once contained food, any residue from that food will draw maggots. When you have empty containers that once contained food in a plastic bag/90+degree temps./in a hot trunk, any residue left from the food will draw maggots. Those nasty little creepy migrating crawlers that are drawn by the slightest smell,won't know there is nothing to eat in the bag until they reach their destination. As long as the maggots smell the food residue intensified by the 90+ degree heat/hot truck/plastic bag,they will continue searching in the bag for something substantial to eat. This is just a common sense logical explanation from someone who lives in the very hot South and is familiar with the nasty habits of maggots. Unfortunatley for KC, the smell from food residue will attract a few maggots, but to humans, the smell will be slightly unpleasant.

I have no idea if the odor from a skunk is in anyway similiar to that of human decomp.

I do know there was a missing Caylee. She was later discovered dead within a few blocks of the Anthony home. I do know there are many people that have confirmed the smell being that of human decomp. Why would I even consider that the smell came from a skunk? When the 12 Jurors are deliberating the case, do you think they will consider the smell came from another source? Will they think it is just coincidence this smell was discovered at the approximate time Caylee went missing, knowing she was later found dead? How about the hair? How about the cadaver dog?

Not to mention, how many people do you know have had a lingering odor in their car, that would come close to putting off an odor as strong as human decomp. I don't know of one.

In this article a chemist remarks that our tissue is made of chloroform. I don't remember knowing that...hope Joypath can chime in.

http://www.wesh.com/news/17800136/detail.html

 

[magnolia]

I see that an earlier post of mine from another thread was carried here and misunderstood a bit.


I did not address the source of the decomp as being human. My point was only that we must acknowledge that the smell:
a) was really bad
and
b) that it was reported as decomp(of some kind) by just about everyone.

If some are of the opinion that the smell was not human decomp there is no problem debating that if anyone else wants to debate it. If you do not want to debate the point, scroll by posts that do.

Remember if you are satisifed with your position and debating the point frustrates you, then just don't debate or argue the point.

Hi JBean~Sorry that I misunderstood your post. I was confused because it was my understanding just about everyone,including LE, stated the odor smelled like "human" decomp/dead body.

 

[RR0004]

In my opinion, based on how I interpret the report from Dr. Vass, I do not believe there was ever any human decomp in the trunk. Nor do I believe there was a dead pig in the trunk decomposing. Nor do I believe that there was a dead squirrel in the trunk decomposing. I do believe that there was some sort of matter (food) in the white trash bag that maggots found nutritious enough for a maggot to eat, grow and multiply. Since it is a well known fact how quickly maggots can devour large amounts of food, any food that may have existed in the white trash bag prior to GA picking the car up from the towyard, could have been eaten by the maggots. I believe the fat decompositional substance like adipocere, was some fat decompositional substance like adipocere, but was not adipocere, because if it was adipocere, it could have easily been tested to prove it was adipocere. I believe most studies say that Adipocere takes several weeks to form, and that most studies say that a hair with a death band takes several weeks to months to form. I am aware that it is supposedly possible for Adipocere to form in 2.6 days or less, and the same for the death band to be on a hair, but most of the studies I read about these two items put the time much longer. I do not think the SA is even going to bring the trunk into the picture at trial. I think the majority of the Dr. Vass report was based on items found inside the white trash bag, and I believe the white trash bag was contaminated while sitting in or near the dumpster for 30 hours. I believe the air sample is a novel science, and I do not think it will be allowed in the trial. None of the above has anything to do with proving the premeditated murder, so even if the SA does not use the trunk, they should still be able to prove premeditated murder. JA never mentioned the trunk in his impassioned scenario at the earlier DP hearing.
What I actually believe caused the decomp event in the trunk, was the food that the maggots ate. Dr. HL said there was food in the white trash bag, but we haven’t seen his proof. CSI Bloise said there wasn’t food in the bag, but he threw away his bench notes. If CSI Bloise is absolutely correct, and there was not any food within the white trash bag from the kitchen that had a garbage disposal, and the maggots ate all the human decomp in the trunk, save a few traces of butyric acid, (which personally I believe is a very long stretch for this to happen), and then in searching for more food climbed into the white trash bag where they were ultimately found, then I am wrong. If Dr. HL is correct and there was food in the white trash bag, then it is possible that decomposing food could have been the cause of the horrendous odor, as well as being the cause for the thriving maggots in the white trash bag. All of the above is my opinion only.

Thanks...very succinct. The only problem that I have with this is that rotting food doesn't smell anything like human decomposition. George was very much aware that there was a bag of garbage in the trunk, yet he confirmed for us that he knew what the smell was (like) because he had smelled it before. The dogs woudn't hit on "decomposing" food either. I also believe that decomposing food wouldnt release high levels of chloroform...but could be wrong. The trunk/car will definitely come into play. I'm not sure why JA would talk about the trunk at the hearing...it didn't kill Caylee...in the eyes of the State, Casey did.

 

[JBean]

Hi JBean~Sorry that I misunderstood your post. I was confused because it was my understanding just about everyone,including LE, stated the odor smelled like "human" decomp/dead body.

No problem at all.
There was indeed a horrible smell and there is no denying it.
It was described as a decomp odor by many.
Was it human decomp? Seems the prosecutions experts say yes.(or do they?) Many of the players in this case have expressed their opinion that it is decomp of some sort. Will the defense experts concur or will they provide evidence or expert testimony to refute the smell of decomp or explain it as non-human decomp? Is there room for doubt?
Some are of the opinion that there is doubt. Some of are the opinion that there is no doubt.

The discussion can be constructive and debate can be quality, if you all make it so.

Thanks.

 

[logicalgirl]

Here's a question - Have any of you first rate sleuthers ever made a list of anyone, besides Cindy - oh heck keep her on the list - of anyone who does NOT think the smell was human decomp? Who actually smelled that trunk I mean. Us folks out here in computer board land don't count.

Because I have never read any evidence by anyone saying - weeellll - boy it sure stunk - y'know it COULD have been human decomp....but then again....

Anyone?

 

[JBean]

Here's a question - Have any of you first rate sleuthers ever made a list of anyone, besides Cindy - oh heck keep her on the list - of anyone who does NOT think the smell was human decomp? Who actually smelled that trunk I mean. Us folks out here in computer board land don't count.

Because I have never read any evidence by anyone saying - weeellll - boy it sure stunk - y'know it COULD have been human decomp....but then again....

Anyone?

is "human" the operative word in your question? or is decomp? or do they have to be used together?

 

[Harmony 2]

Yuri Melich was a Homocide Detective for two years prior to his current position. He stated, at the bond hearing, that in his opinion the odor was decomposition and that the odor in the trunk was not the same as the odor emitting from the trash bag.

Timestamps 1:08 and 2:08

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLb0RYC1q5o&feature=related[/ame]

He also agreed that the car contained evidence of “human decomposition”.

Timestamp 7:18

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=659JE9JrkfI[/ame]

 

[whiteangora]

Yuri Melich was a Homocide Detective for two years prior to his current position. He stated, at the bond hearing, that in his opinion the odor was decomposition and that the odor in the trunk was not the same as the odor emitting from the trash bag.

Timestamps 1:08 and 2:08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLb0RYC1q5o&feature=related

He also agreed that the car contained evidence of “human decomposition”.

Timestamp 7:18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=659JE9JrkfI

That's good enough for me! The cadaver dogs seemed to agree with Yuri too.