Dead Folks and Decomp *WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTOS IN OPENING POST*#2

[BlOnDe_GuRrL]

Wow, heavily argumentative thread here. Kudos to you WS'ers who've provided links and good information that I think a normal juror would actually pay attention to and consider in the court room instead of finding something else to argue endlessly about.

I'm not worried, though. At trial, we'll have experts for both sides, and the prosecution will have something the defense just can't argue - the actual car with the actual smell STILL IN IT. Once the jurors get a whiff of that car - and I know it'll be almost three years out, but still - they will know what was in the back of it, and it ain't going to be spoiled food products or a squirrel. That smell will still be so potent, the jurors noses will be the ultimate decider of what was there, and that will be a human decompositional event.

The jurors will be the only ones who truly know what was or wasn't there by that smell. And you better believe there will be a field trip - I don't think the state is going to hold anything back or be nice to anybody come trial time. The car is their ace in the hole and the defense knows it, otherwise there wouldn't be so much delay, delay, delay. All IMO.

Btw, I have enjoyed the scientific and personal info from experience shared here.

Do you think they'll actually have the jury smell the car?

When my husband was a teenager, one of his friends died inside of his car and his parents could NOT get the smell out of it... 20 years later, they were trying to sell it as a "classic" car or whatever.. had the whole interior replaced and the car still reeks of death.

 

[magnolia]

Thanks...very succinct. The only problem that I have with this is that rotting food doesn't smell anything like human decomposition. George was very much aware that there was a bag of garbage in the trunk, yet he confirmed for us that he knew what the smell was (like) because he had smelled it before. The dogs woudn't hit on "decomposing" food either. I also believe that decomposing food wouldnt release high levels of chloroform...but could be wrong. The trunk/car will definitely come into play. I'm not sure why JA would talk about the trunk at the hearing...it didn't kill Caylee...in the eyes of the State, Casey did.

Cadaver dogs can also distinguish between human & animal decomp.

 

[Aedrys]

Do you think they'll actually have the jury smell the car?

When my husband was a teenager, one of his friends died inside of his car and his parents could NOT get the smell out of it... 20 years later, they were trying to sell it as a "classic" car or whatever.. had the whole interior replaced and the car still reeks of death.

I think so, especially after all the defense and A's has put LE and SA through. Also, it depends on how much of a stink (no pun intended) the defense puts up about the trunk. If they are going with that no dead body was ever there - the jury will smell the trunk. If they are going with, okay, there was a dead body (other human, squirrel, pig) but not Caylee's - maybe not (I don't see how they could go this route or why, but George did try to say that some other dead body was in there). It also depends on how ticked off the SA is come trial time. If they mean to bury Casey and her defense as far into the ground as possible, then yes, the jurors will smell that trunk so there is no doubt what was there. I'm thinking after all the defense shenanigans, the SA is going to make sure to have a solid showing of this case and get down to the nitty gritty of it all to be thorough and leave the jury with no doubt. Remember, the defense's job is to show reasonable doubt in as much evidence as possible. I think after smelling the trunk of that car, all reasonable doubt will go out the window as there will be no doubt what happened to Caylee and that she was in that trunk decomposing.

Now, I'm not saying the jury should have to smell that car, but the SA could get pushed there depending on what the defense does. If the SA can show strongly enough that smelling the trunk is not necessary, then that's the better scenario to me. But the SA may want to send the strongest message of this case to the jury by making them smell that trunk. And honestly, I wouldn't blame them in the least. The defense has made such enemies of everyone insteading of cooperating that I think it's mostly likely that the jury will smell that trunk. All IMO, of course.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

When you have a plastic bag that once contained food, any residue from that food will draw maggots. When you have empty containers that once contained food in a plastic bag/90+degree temps./in a hot trunk, any residue left from the food will draw maggots. Those nasty little creepy migrating crawlers that are drawn by the slightest smell,won't know there is nothing to eat in the bag until they reach their destination. As long as the maggots smell the food residue intensified by the 90+ degree heat/hot truck/plastic bag,they will continue searching in the bag for something substantial to eat. This is just a common sense logical explanation from someone who lives in the very hot South and is familiar with the nasty habits of maggots. Unfortunatley for KC, the smell from food residue will attract a few maggots, but to humans, the smell will be slightly unpleasant.

I have no idea if the odor from a skunk is in anyway similiar to that of human decomp.

I do know there was a missing Caylee. She was later discovered dead within a few blocks of the Anthony home. I do know there are many people that have confirmed the smell being that of human decomp. Why would I even consider that the smell came from a skunk? When the 12 Jurors are deliberating the case, do you think they will consider the smell came from another source? Will they think it is just coincidence this smell was discovered at the approximate time Caylee went missing, knowing she was later found dead? How about the hair? How about the cadaver dog?

Not to mention, how many people do you know have had a lingering odor in their car, that would come close to putting off an odor as strong as human decomp. I don't know of one.

The only reason I mentioned the odor of a skunk, is because that is a very strong, and distinct odor. In no way am I comparing its smell to that of a decomposing human. I wanted to know if anyone who had smelled a decomposing human after 2 and a half days of decomposing, thought that the odor of said decomposing human was as DISTINCT as the distinct odor of a skunk.

In regard to the empty food containers. Many think there was no residue, since the CSI said there was no food in the white trash bag. I agree that there was most likely food residue that caused an odor that the maggots would be attracted to. The big difference is I believe there was more than just a residue. I believe there was enough food residue in the empty containers to feed 3 generations of maggots, since mathematically the maggots GA and SB heard and saw living and making a popping sound in the white trash bag had to be third generation maggots, and iirc Dr. Vass mentioned in his report that these were third generation maggots. The other big difference is I think that the odor produced by the food residue in the 90 plus sealed trunk was much stronger than just an unpleasant odor.

I know it is possible that the odor from a decomposing body can permeate an area as small as the trunk. Once the decomposing body is removed, the odor will dissipate, however, the smell will remain on the permeated areas. I have tried to find information in regards to the following question, and I have had no luck at all. Once the source of the odor has been removed, will the odor in the permeated areas increase substantially in intensity? All I could find is that once the source is removed, the odor will dissipate, but may linger for a long, long time in the permeated areas. I can find nothing that shows the odor increases once the source is removed. Since GA did not notice the awful odor the day KC returned his gas cans, nor did her boyfriend the day before, I am having trouble figuring out how the odor was so much worse 3 weeks later. As always, my entire post is
MOO

 

[MissJames]

The only reason I mentioned the odor of a skunk, is because that is a very strong, and distinct odor. In no way am I comparing its smell to that of a decomposing human. I wanted to know if anyone who had smelled a decomposing human after 2 and a half days of decomposing, thought that the odor of said decomposing human was as DISTINCT as the distinct odor of a skunk.

In regard to the empty food containers. Many think there was no residue, since the CSI said there was no food in the white trash bag. I agree that there was most likely food residue that caused an odor that the maggots would be attracted to. The big difference is I believe there was more than just a residue. I believe there was enough food residue in the empty containers to feed 3 generations of maggots, since mathematically the maggots GA and SB heard and saw living and making a popping sound in the white trash bag had to be third generation maggots, and iirc Dr. Vass mentioned in his report that these were third generation maggots. The other big difference is I think that the odor produced by the food residue in the 90 plus sealed trunk was much stronger than just an unpleasant odor.

I know it is possible that the odor from a decomposing body can permeate an area as small as the trunk. Once the decomposing body is removed, the odor will dissipate, however, the smell will remain on the permeated areas. I have tried to find information in regards to the following question, and I have had no luck at all. Once the source of the odor has been removed, will the odor in the permeated areas increase substantially in intensity? All I could find is that once the source is removed, the odor will dissipate, but may linger for a long, long time in the permeated areas. I can find nothing that shows the odor increases once the source is removed. Since GA did not notice the awful odor the day KC returned his gas cans, nor did her boyfriend the day before, I am having trouble figuring out how the odor was so much worse 3 weeks later. As always, my entire post is
MOO

How do you find it more likely that the smell was from a small amount of trash instead of the decomposed body of Caylee? Caylee was last seen getting into that car. People familiar with the smell of human decomp ,including George ,were convinced it was human decomp.
I guess I'm trying to wrap my brain around anyone just discounting that Caylee was found dead,fully decomposed and last seen in that car.. Also, how do you explain ICA describing the smell of something dead (not trash,squirrels),before she ditched her car ?
If Caylee had never been found ,I could understand the argument. BUT she was found dead. You just can't get around her body being the source of decomp. This portion will be a no brainer for the jurors IMO. But since you seem convinced the smell was from trash,do you just block out the decomposed body and the prior texts by ICA?

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Yuri Melich was a Homocide Detective for two years prior to his current position. He stated, at the bond hearing, that in his opinion the odor was decomposition and that the odor in the trunk was not the same as the odor emitting from the trash bag.

Timestamps 1:08 and 2:08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLb0RYC1q5o&feature=related

He also agreed that the car contained evidence of “human decomposition”.

Timestamp 7:18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=659JE9JrkfI

Good links, thanks.
It seems a bit odd that the odor of the white trash bag was different than the odor of the trunk. If the odor from the alleged human decomp permeated the entire trunk, why did it not also permeate the white trash bag and its contents?

 

[spqr]

The only reason I mentioned the odor of a skunk, is because that is a very strong, and distinct odor. In no way am I comparing its smell to that of a decomposing human. I wanted to know if anyone who had smelled a decomposing human after 2 and a half days of decomposing, thought that the odor of said decomposing human was as DISTINCT as the distinct odor of a skunk.

In regard to the empty food containers. Many think there was no residue, since the CSI said there was no food in the white trash bag. I agree that there was most likely food residue that caused an odor that the maggots would be attracted to. The big difference is I believe there was more than just a residue. I believe there was enough food residue in the empty containers to feed 3 generations of maggots, since mathematically the maggots GA and SB heard and saw living and making a popping sound in the white trash bag had to be third generation maggots, and iirc Dr. Vass mentioned in his report that these were third generation maggots. The other big difference is I think that the odor produced by the food residue in the 90 plus sealed trunk was much stronger than just an unpleasant odor.

I know it is possible that the odor from a decomposing body can permeate an area as small as the trunk. Once the decomposing body is removed, the odor will dissipate, however, the smell will remain on the permeated areas. I have tried to find information in regards to the following question, and I have had no luck at all. Once the source of the odor has been removed, will the odor in the permeated areas increase substantially in intensity? All I could find is that once the source is removed, the odor will dissipate, but may linger for a long, long time in the permeated areas. I can find nothing that shows the odor increases once the source is removed. Since GA did not notice the awful odor the day KC returned his gas cans, nor did her boyfriend the day before, I am having trouble figuring out how the odor was so much worse 3 weeks later. As always, my entire post is
MOO

BBM: Yes as Distinct. (but in no way would ANYONE confuse the two...if you have smelled both)

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

How do you find it more likely that the smell was from a small amount of trash instead of the decomposed body of Caylee? Caylee was last seen getting into that car. People familiar with the smell of human decomp ,including George ,were convinced it was human decomp.
I guess I'm trying to wrap my brain around anyone just discounting that Caylee was found dead,fully decomposed and last seen in that car.. Also, how do you explain ICA describing the smell of something dead (not trash,squirrels),before she ditched her car ?
If Caylee had never been found ,I could understand the argument. BUT she was found dead. You just can't get around her body being the source of decomp. This portion will be a no brainer for the jurors IMO. But since you seem convinced the smell was from trash,do you just block out the decomposed body and the prior texts by ICA?

Mainly I find it is more likely that the odor was caused from the contents of the white trash bag because, if a decomposing body had been in that car for 2.6 days, I believe LE would have found much, much, much more evidence of it, than a single hair consistant with decomposition, and VFA scrapings from the carpet. I do not think KC nor CA or GA could have removed all the evidence from the trunk that would usually be found when a decomposing body was in a trunk for 2.6 days. What would usually be found, I don’t know, but I would think it would be more than a single hair and some VFA scrapings. Of course I could be wrong, but that is my opinion. My entire post is moo

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

BBM: Yes as Distinct. (but in no way would ANYONE confuse the two...if you have smelled both)

Thanks for answering, I now have a better understanding why some people say that the smell of a decomposing body is unforgettable.

 

[LambChop]

Mainly I find it is more likely that the odor was caused from the contents of the white trash bag because, if a decomposing body had been in that car for 2.6 days, I believe LE would have found much, much, much more evidence of it, than a single hair consistant with decomposition, and VFA scrapings from the carpet. I do not think KC nor CA or GA could have removed all the evidence from the trunk that would usually be found when a decomposing body was in a trunk for 2.6 days. What would usually be found, I don’t know, but I would think it would be more than a single hair and some VFA scrapings. Of course I could be wrong, but that is my opinion. My entire post is moo

Where did you see the body was in the car for 2.6 days. I thought the report said that the decomposition in the trunk was consistent with 2.6 days of decomposition. That does not mean the body was in the trunk all that time, just that it was in there at the 2.6 day mark. I think you are right had it been in the trunk all that time we would see more, so the body could have been bagged right away or was taken out and then moved back in when KC needed to get rid of the body because it began to break down. jmo

 

[logicalgirl]

is "human" the operative word in your question? or is decomp? or do they have to be used together?

Human + Decomp.

We've all smelled our potatoes and such that have gone off - or bought a piece of bad meat, but I understand the human decomp is quite distinctive and different than any other. Kind of like "death is different".

 

[logicalgirl]

Do you think they'll actually have the jury smell the car?

When my husband was a teenager, one of his friends died inside of his car and his parents could NOT get the smell out of it... 20 years later, they were trying to sell it as a "classic" car or whatever.. had the whole interior replaced and the car still reeks of death.

See if we can flag AZLawyer. I believe she said once before the jury would not smell it - but I've been wrong......

 

[logicalgirl]

The only reason I mentioned the odor of a skunk, is because that is a very strong, and distinct odor. In no way am I comparing its smell to that of a decomposing human. I wanted to know if anyone who had smelled a decomposing human after 2 and a half days of decomposing, thought that the odor of said decomposing human was as DISTINCT as the distinct odor of a skunk.

Um - er - thedevilsadvocate - not "funning" you - but have you ever smelled what is known as BC Bud? Pot? Up here in my neighborhood we have lots of skunks, and lots of BC bud. Most can not distinguish between the two.

 

[Star12]

The only reason I mentioned the odor of a skunk, is because that is a very strong, and distinct odor. In no way am I comparing its smell to that of a decomposing human. I wanted to know if anyone who had smelled a decomposing human after 2 and a half days of decomposing, thought that the odor of said decomposing human was as DISTINCT as the distinct odor of a skunk.

Um - er - thedevilsadvocate - not "funning" you - but have you ever smelled what is known as BC Bud? Pot? Up here in my neighborhood we have lots of skunks, and lots of BC bud. Most can not distinguish between the two.

BBM
What is BC Bud?

 

[logicalgirl]

BBM
What is BC Bud?

Pot, Marijuana - what ever you want to call it. Grown in BC - called BC Bud. At least three times stronger than what was around in the late 60's and 70's. Unfortunately has gotten to be big business in BC - the RCMP is constantly busting what are called "grow-ops", where hundreds or thousands of plants are grown in hot house like conditions. The favorite is to rent a large house, demolish the inside, tap into the hydro lines, and grow crop after crop, which ruins the house, because of the sprinkling system to water the plants, combined with the warmth. Then whatever criminal element grew it tries to smuggle it into the States. Fortunately "your people" are very aware of it.

 

[Amil]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92903"]Evidence for "Dead body in the Dam Car" - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[magnolia]

Good links, thanks.
It seems a bit odd that the odor of the white trash bag was different than the odor of the trunk. If the odor from the alleged human decomp permeated the entire trunk, why did it not also permeate the white trash bag and its contents?

Perhaps it had something to do with the "slick" plastic bag vs.the "porous" interior materials/surfaces in the pontiac?

 

[MissJames]

Mainly I find it is more likely that the odor was caused from the contents of the white trash bag because, if a decomposing body had been in that car for 2.6 days, I believe LE would have found much, much, much more evidence of it, than a single hair consistant with decomposition, and VFA scrapings from the carpet. I do not think KC nor CA or GA could have removed all the evidence from the trunk that would usually be found when a decomposing body was in a trunk for 2.6 days. What would usually be found, I don’t know, but I would think it would be more than a single hair and some VFA scrapings. Of course I could be wrong, but that is my opinion. My entire post is moo

Well, Cindy and George had it in their garage ,behind closed doors before LE saw the car. That could account for the lack of decomp or material.Funny how they chose to air out the car INSIDE the garage with the doors CLOSED.Seems like you'd want to air out a car that smelled like garbage outside in the fresh air.. And then their's ICA's textz about the bad smell of something DEAD in her car. Just my opinion,but the garbage actually seems like the least likely source of the smell.
Night,y'all!

 

[spqr]

Thanks for answering, I now have a better understanding why some people say that the smell of a decomposing body is unforgettable.

Your welcome. I understand the difficulty that is presented. It is very difficult to describe the very distinct odor of something to someone who has never experienced that particular odor before.

As you mentioned, a skunk for example. I think it is virtually impossible to describe a similar odor that would be as descriptive, to someone who has never smelled a skunk spray before. I personally couldn't describe a skunk odor to someone and say...it kind of/sort of/smells like...??? Nothing else equates. Same as human decomp. Sorry for the ramble.

 

[spqr]

Where did you see the body was in the car for 2.6 days. I thought the report said that the decomposition in the trunk was consistent with 2.6 days of decomposition. That does not mean the body was in the trunk all that time, just that it was in there at the 2.6 day mark. I think you are right had it been in the trunk all that time we would see more, so the body could have been bagged right away or was taken out and then moved back in when KC needed to get rid of the body because it began to break down. jmo

BBM...That is spot on. She probably hid her somewhere (playhouse, garage, etc...) then backed the car into garage, loaded her in and the rest is present history. JMO