Dead Folks and Decomp *WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTOS IN OPENING POST*#2

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  • #381
But only ONE hair related to decomposition was found and THAT hair was from Casey's DAUGHTER! JMO.
Yes, you are absolutely correct Tulessa!!!!!
Of course decomposition is not the same as food drying up or empty cheese wrappers. That i s just someone trying to make us laugh. We do need a little levity sometimes. The topic is so awful. If something defies common sense, trust your instincts that God gave you. I know you do! Decomposition or rotting is the process by which tissues of a dead organism break down into simpler forms of matter. Not pizza, nor cheese, an organism is a discrete and complete living thing. The jury is not going to have been born yesterday. Don't worry over this, the state has explained to juries many, many, many times what decomposition is , how it differs from other smells and judging by their success rate, apparently they are able to convince the jury to a reasonable level of certainty that it is quite unique indeed.

Scott Peterson was convicted on a hell of a lot less than we have in Casey's case. The grand jury sure wasn't confused about how that smell permeated the car trunk. The trial jury wont be either!

For all the Veterans ...I want to tell you that you have our undying respect. We honor you today for your service to our country. You light our path in history as Americans. You are cherished. You are loved. God bless you all. For the kids who are serving abroad, hold your heads up, for you are fighting the good fight. God speed and come back home for the heroes welcome you deserve
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  • #382
I would totally agree with having the jurors take a field trip to the car to smell the trunk first hand. I wish they could make that decision now for later that the bus trip will indeed happen. I think its very important that this takes place.

I wonder if the car is still located in the evidence garage? It would be nice if they could keep it sealed and shrink wrap it somehow to preserve it. I noted in the OJ case the defense was able to establish that many many people had been in the bronco after it was in police hands. This pontiac is very important to the topic of dead folks and decomp and it is prolly the foundation of their case. IMO

The bag was in a dumpster for 30 hours. It is contaminated to say the least. Not even sure how that bag is coming into evidence. The bag had an opening at the top and that is why I think the smell could have permeated the cardboard from the pizza box.

I am implying that Det Melich was trying to answer a question and was intterupted.

As far as the comment about many people in the Oj Bronco, in context it was to say that they were able to determine many people were in that vehicle, when Sa was saying they were not. Sa had stated only a couple of people actually came to look at the Bronco, and the defense came up with several witnesses who said they looked at the bronco while it was in police custody.

It applied at the time in context to how many people have looked at Kc's vehicle, how do we know that they didn't contaminate the vehicle. If there are a lot of people, it won't look good for the Sa. IMO

Thanks for the explanation. However, the subject of discussion at the time you wrote the comment had to do with the "smell of decomp" in the Pontiac. How does "how many people have looked at KC's vehicle" (contaminate), relate to the smell of decomp in KC's vehicle? Sorry, but, I don't quite understand.
 
  • #383
I was talking about the box. Do you not agree that cardboard is permeable? Kitchen Garbage bag contents do reek of decomposition. There was definately decomp in that garbage bag. Especially the cheese wrappers. IMO

I don't think we can put cheese wrappers in the decomp. category. IMO
 
  • #384
  • #385
It isn’t really that difficult. I believe the terrible odor in the trunk was caused from whatever food residue the maggots were thriving on inside the white trash bag. I believe the odor from the white trash bag permeated the entire trunk area, as well as causing the interior of the car to reek. I believe that the white trash bag sat in or near a dumpster for 30 hours, and this altered the odor emitting from the bag enough that detective YM believed the smell of the white trash bag was different than the smell in the car. (Also at that time, YM had reason to believe there was a blood stain in the trunk, which could have influenced what he thought he was smelling.) I do not believe that scrapings of vfa, and a single hair consistant with decomposition could possibly cause the atrocious odor within the trunk. The cadaver dog hit in the back yard of the Anthony house, and the results were negative, so I believe it is possible that the cadaver dog could also hit on the vehicle with negative results. The air sample produced a result that proves it may be possible that there was a decomposing human body, however, with the lack of anything other than vfa scrapings and a single hair consistant with decomposition, I think the possibility of a decomposing human in the trunk is extremely slim. The vfa could have come from a number of sources other than a decomposing human. The single hair consistant with decomposition does not emit an odor. I do not believe the single hair is a smoking gun, I think there is another reasonable explanation for it, because it just seems very unlikely that only a single hair consistant with decomposition would end up in the trunk had Caylee’s body been in there.

I do not believe that the pizza box caused a decomp odor. I also do not believe the napkins, or the cans, or the soap container, or the crystal lite, or the cheese wrappers, or the white trash bag itself gave off an odor of decomposition. Containers in general do not give off decompositional odors. However, the contents of the food and beverage containers can give off foul odors after they sit in a hot trunk for weeks, even if those contents are only residue from the foods and beverages that were originally in the containers.

I believe Dr. Vass was asked to prove a possible scenario, but I believe he was inadvertently given misleading information. For example, I think Dr. Vass was unaware that the white trash bag sat in or near a dumpster for 30 hours. Dr. Vass was told there was no food in the white trash bag. I think if Dr. Vass had known that the white trash bag had sat in or near a dumpster for 30 hours, his results may have been different, or he may have opted not to do any testing since the white trash bag may have been contaminated. The maggots had to be thriving on something from within the white trash bag, and the csi may have believed there was no food in the white trash bag, but to an expert who deals with microscopic amounts, Dr. Vass may have a different opinion of whether or not there was any food for the maggots in the white trash bag. Based on the information and items he was given, Dr. Vass proved a possible scenario. He was not asked what the likelihood of that possible scenario was. He covered himself by stating that the decompositional event could have come from something other than human origin. He also did not tell what the likelihood of the decompositional event being from something other than human origin was. For all we know, the likelihood of his scenario could be 1 percent, 10 percent 50 percent, 95 percent, or 95 other possible percentages, as could the something other than human origin percentages.

The smell was awful, it seems everyone agrees on that point. The cause of the odor is where the difference of opinions arise. Yet it really is very, very simple.

One belief is that Caylee’s dead body was at one time in the trunk, and that is what caused the terrible smell.
The other belief is that the odor originated from the contents within the white trash bag.

I am aware that some have said you never forget that smell, etc.

What I believe will be a problem for the prosecution, should they elect to go down the trunk road during trial, is that I think there is enough evidence or lack of evidence to give the jurors reasonable doubt about the trunk. So I will be very surprised if the SA even brings in the trunk evidence at trial, especially if the air sample is not allowed in as evidence. As always my entire post is moo.
 
  • #386
It isn’t really that difficult. I believe the terrible odor in the trunk was caused from whatever food residue the maggots were thriving on inside the white trash bag. I believe the odor from the white trash bag permeated the entire trunk area, as well as causing the interior of the car to reek. I believe that the white trash bag sat in or near a dumpster for 30 hours, and this altered the odor emitting from the bag enough that detective YM believed the smell of the white trash bag was different than the smell in the car. (Also at that time, YM had reason to believe there was a blood stain in the trunk, which could have influenced what he thought he was smelling.) I do not believe that scrapings of vfa, and a single hair consistant with decomposition could possibly cause the atrocious odor within the trunk. The cadaver dog hit in the back yard of the Anthony house, and the results were negative, so I believe it is possible that the cadaver dog could also hit on the vehicle with negative results. The air sample produced a result that proves it may be possible that there was a decomposing human body, however, with the lack of anything other than vfa scrapings and a single hair consistant with decomposition, I think the possibility of a decomposing human in the trunk is extremely slim. The vfa could have come from a number of sources other than a decomposing human. The single hair consistant with decomposition does not emit an odor. I do not believe the single hair is a smoking gun, I think there is another reasonable explanation for it, because it just seems very unlikely that only a single hair consistant with decomposition would end up in the trunk had Caylee’s body been in there.

I do not believe that the pizza box caused a decomp odor. I also do not believe the napkins, or the cans, or the soap container, or the crystal lite, or the cheese wrappers, or the white trash bag itself gave off an odor of decomposition. Containers in general do not give off decompositional odors. However, the contents of the food and beverage containers can give off foul odors after they sit in a hot trunk for weeks, even if those contents are only residue from the foods and beverages that were originally in the containers.

I believe Dr. Vass was asked to prove a possible scenario, but I believe he was inadvertently given misleading information. For example, I think Dr. Vass was unaware that the white trash bag sat in or near a dumpster for 30 hours. Dr. Vass was told there was no food in the white trash bag. I think if Dr. Vass had known that the white trash bag had sat in or near a dumpster for 30 hours, his results may have been different, or he may have opted not to do any testing since the white trash bag may have been contaminated. The maggots had to be thriving on something from within the white trash bag, and the csi may have believed there was no food in the white trash bag, but to an expert who deals with microscopic amounts, Dr. Vass may have a different opinion of whether or not there was any food for the maggots in the white trash bag. Based on the information and items he was given, Dr. Vass proved a possible scenario. He was not asked what the likelihood of that possible scenario was. He covered himself by stating that the decompositional event could have come from something other than human origin. He also did not tell what the likelihood of the decompositional event being from something other than human origin was. For all we know, the likelihood of his scenario could be 1 percent, 10 percent 50 percent, 95 percent, or 95 other possible percentages, as could the something other than human origin percentages.

The smell was awful, it seems everyone agrees on that point. The cause of the odor is where the difference of opinions arise. Yet it really is very, very simple.

One belief is that Caylee’s dead body was at one time in the trunk, and that is what caused the terrible smell.
The other belief is that the odor originated from the contents within the white trash bag.

I am aware that some have said you never forget that smell, etc.

What I believe will be a problem for the prosecution, should they elect to go down the trunk road during trial, is that I think there is enough evidence or lack of evidence to give the jurors reasonable doubt about the trunk. So I will be very surprised if the SA even brings in the trunk evidence at trial, especially if the air sample is not allowed in as evidence. As always my entire post is moo.

No, it won't be a problem and it's not that difficult to also prove to the jury that Caylee's body was in that trunk. All they have to do is let the jury smell that trunk one time and they will know what was back there. I appreciate the different opinion, but the trunk evidence is solid enough to be presented at trial. And if the jury asks why more biological evidence wasn't there, the prosecution can point to the fact that someone tried to clean out the trunk, and the fact that Caylee's body was bagged and not in trunk for but a few days. It's really not that difficult to use common sense to tie Caylee's body to the trunk.

It makes a lot more sense than trying to get the jury to believe that a minutia of something in the white trash bag caused a foul odor that will probably still be in that trunk at the time of trial. I have a lot faith in the prosecution that they will be very convincing about the trunk of Casey's car among other things. Casey's defense has yet to show a coherent and well put together explanation of what they think caused that odor. The pressure is on them, not the prosecution, to come up with an alternate explanation that could possibly work over what the prosecution is going to present. Casey's defense should sweating more about that than whining and moaning about not being led by the hand through everything by the prosecution.
 
  • #387
The source of human decomposition odor was not a box or plastic bag. JMHO

---------------------Hi RR0004,just peeking in to say garbage does not smell like decomp either.I could well be wrong but meats and cheeses are full of preservatives. I work in a Deli.Oh yeah :dance:I agree with you.Take care.
 
  • #388
I was talking about the box. Do you not agree that cardboard is permeable? Kitchen Garbage bag contents do reek of decomposition. There was definately decomp in that garbage bag. Especially the cheese wrappers. IMO

BBM

Cheese doesn't decompose. It may get "green molded" but it does not EVER decompose. You have to have been a LIVING organism to decompose.
 
  • #389
The cadaver dog hit in the back yard of the Anthony house, and the results were negative, so I believe it is possible that the cadaver dog could also hit on the vehicle with negative results.

Respectfully snipped and BBM

The cadaver dog hit and the results were negative? Just because a cadaver dog "hits" and you don't subsequently find a body at that spot, doesn't mean the results were negative. A very simple and plausible answer is, the body was moved.

It has happened at hundreds, if not thousands of crime scenes. Bodies are moved by the perp and/or an accomplice to hid the body and/or evidence. So not finding a body at the location a cadaver dog hit doesn't automatically rule out a body not being in that location at one time. Same reason the dog hit on the trunk, we didn't find Caylee there either. She was moved from there as well.
 
  • #390
When we talk about the bag...are we assuming it was tied shut?
I've smelt dumpsters...and I've smelt human decomp...not even close.
Who said there was a negative hit in the backyard? Are we assuming it was a negative hit because Caylee wasn't found there? Are there reports that I missed?
 
  • #391
Respectfully snipped and BBM

The cadaver dog hit and the results were negative? Just because a cadaver dog "hits" and you don't subsequently find a body at that spot, doesn't mean the results were negative. A very simple and plausible answer is, the body was moved.

It has happened at hundreds, if not thousands of crime scenes. Bodies are moved by the perp and/or an accomplice to hid the body and/or evidence. So not finding a body at the location a cadaver dog hit doesn't automatically rule out a body not being in that location at one time. Same reason the dog hit on the trunk, we didn't find Caylee there either. She was moved from there as well.
Jinx!!

That's why links are so important.
 
  • #392
When we talk about the bag...are we assuming it was tied shut?
I've smelt dumpsters...and I've smelt human decomp...not even close.
Who said there was a negative hit in the backyard? Are we assuming it was a negative hit because Caylee wasn't found there? Are there reports that I missed?

If you look at the photos of the bag it appears that the bag was tied shut and then was cut open when the bag and contents were being examined. I believe the photo is in this thread, but perhaps not.

ETA: The link for the photo I was thinking of was in another thread. This is the link to the photo.
http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/19105250/detail.html

Photo number 73
 
  • #393
When we talk about the bag...are we assuming it was tied shut?
I've smelt dumpsters...and I've smelt human decomp...not even close.
Who said there was a negative hit in the backyard? Are we assuming it was a negative hit because Caylee wasn't found there? Are there reports that I missed?

It was tied shut.

trashbag.jpg
 
  • #394
It was tied shut.

trashbag.jpg

Theres actually a bottle or something coming out of it, so that is a pretty big hole as GA explained in depo. He could see inside. Plenty of room there for foul odors to come out. Also, I can use 2 ziplock storage bags and the onion smell still comes out and smells up my fridge, so I know these bags are so called impermeable, but I am sure they leak like crazy. It is also possible this stain on the bag matches the stain in the trunk. Just food juices leaking out and causing a huge stain in the trunk. I think it is also possible that the cheeses could have been the source of the vfa. Ca could not have possibly cleaned up human decomp and only left traces of butric acid. That would be impossible. This huge belief that there was human decomp in that trunk is not backed up by any science. It is the witnesses that will try to convince a jury of human decomp, but it won't be science. IMO
 
  • #395
It was tied shut.

trashbag.jpg
Thanks, Harmony2!
I wonder if anyone would want to do a little experiment with their garbage.
I would, but I don't have a trunk. : )
 
  • #396
Theres actually a bottle or something coming out of it, so that is a pretty big hole as GA explained in depo. He could see inside. Plenty of room there for foul odors to come out. Also, I can use 2 ziplock storage bags and the onion smell still comes out and smells up my fridge, so I know these bags are so called impermeable, but I am sure they leak like crazy. It is also possible this stain on the bag matches the stain in the trunk. Just food juices leaking out and causing a huge stain in the trunk. I think it is also possible that the cheeses could have been the source of the vfa. Ca could not have possibly cleaned up human decomp and only left traces of butric acid. That would be impossible. This huge belief that there was human decomp in that trunk is not backed up by any science. It is the witnesses that will try to convince a jury of human decomp, but it won't be science. IMO
...think "Body Farm".
Personally, I can't wait for them to strut their stuff (so to speak). I appreciate genius at work.
 
  • #397
:popcorn:

I *know* everyone is gonna behave while I'm on vacation today. I just know it.
 
  • #398
Theres actually a bottle or something coming out of it, so that is a pretty big hole as GA explained in depo. He could see inside. Plenty of room there for foul odors to come out. Also, I can use 2 ziplock storage bags and the onion smell still comes out and smells up my fridge, so I know these bags are so called impermeable, but I am sure they leak like crazy. It is also possible this stain on the bag matches the stain in the trunk. Just food juices leaking out and causing a huge stain in the trunk. I think it is also possible that the cheeses could have been the source of the vfa. Ca could not have possibly cleaned up human decomp and only left traces of butric acid. That would be impossible. This huge belief that there was human decomp in that trunk is not backed up by any science. It is the witnesses that will try to convince a jury of human decomp, but it won't be science. IMO

No the bottle was on the outside and behind it. It was not protruding out of the bag. The bag was tied shut. I will try and find the photo.

ETA: IMO the huge stain in the trunk was the butyric acid since that is where it was scaped from. It was not a trace amount. Thanks...
 
  • #399
Thanks, Harmony2!
I wonder if anyone would want to do a little experiment with their garbage.
I would, but I don't have a trunk. : )

I doubt many would do the test with there own car. A kitchen garbage bag full of contents sitting in a trunk in june for two weeks is going to reek up that whole car and it is not going to be easy to get rid of it. Not a good thing to do. I think if someone knows someone from a salvage yard, it might be worth a try to reenact it. There will be maggots everywhere. I don't even know if a salvage yard would allow this, it could destroy the interior. IMO
 
  • #400
I bumped the trash bag thread for you, FYI.
 
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