Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #4

[fran]

Yes, Shadow, this has been going on way too long. The good news...we shouldn't hear about any new cases for a bit...if the timeline proves correct.

This is from Ethann on the "What is Your Theory" thread.

"- The Indiana State Police are requesting the assistance of the public in locating a missing person. Daniel Reaves, 25 was last seen on Saturday, May 3 in the Madison area. For the last couple of weeks Indiana State Police investigators have interviewed family members, friends, and acquaintances of Reaves and followed up on all leads but to no avail. Reaves is described as a white male, 5’11", approximately 145 pounds. He has dark brown hair, light blue eyes, and is clean shaven. He was last seen wearing a white T-shirt with long shorts and light brown shoes.
Reaves attended Indiana University Southeast in New Albany during the 2007 fall semester."

They're also still looking for Brandon Swanson around Marshall, Mn. Age 19, missing, car located.

Let's hope this is the end for this school year!

JMHO
fran

 

[Blink34]

Fran- are his stats correct? 145 lbs. at 5'11 is major skinny...
Thanks for posting.

 

[fran]

Fran- are his stats correct? 145 lbs. at 5'11 is major skinny...
Thanks for posting.

Blink, that is thin. But if you look at his picture he does look slim. I would say it most likely is correct.

fran


http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=8362665

 

[SuziQ]

Blink, that is thin. But if you look at his picture he does look slim. I would say it most likely is correct.

fran


http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=8362665

Weird circumstances. The text msg made me think of suicide. If that's the case he should be far away from his car. It sounds like it was left in a subdivision though. Whatever happened, robbery wasn't a motive.

ETA: Here is a link to a Google map of the road the car was found on. Although the car wasn't found on a road leading directly to numerous lakes and ponds in the area, they are in walking distance. Maybe they should be checked out?

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...305,-85.758526&spn=0.011193,0.020084&t=h&z=16

 

[Peculiar Petunia]

I hope this doesn't sound too naive here, but did any of the victims know how to swim? I know that in cold water (especially the Mississippi) it wouldn't help them survive. If a high body temperature (such as allegedly produced by Ecstasy) was involved, would someone jump into a river trying to cool down? No matter how confused a person is, once they swim well, that "I can swim" knowledge is deep in the brain.
It used to be pretty common in the lake regions of the Midwest for swimming lessons to be "socially mandatory," in that parents were expected to ensure their children could swim. Even some colleges mandated PE and swim test requirements for graduation: I don't know if these requirements persist. Although I do think there is foul play involved in at least some of these cases, I could understand an intoxicated, hot, miserable guy thinking that a quick dip in a river would be a good idea. It might explain the folded clothes.
Also, in the cases where clothes were found, were they in good repair? I can't imagine someone being able to undress a 160# man without rips or popped buttons.

 

[Blink34]

Weird circumstances. The text msg made me think of suicide. If that's the case he should be far away from his car. It sounds like it was left in a subdivision though. Whatever happened, robbery wasn't a motive.

ETA: Here is a link to a Google map of the road the car was found on. Although the car wasn't found on a road leading directly to numerous lakes and ponds in the area, they are in walking distance. Maybe they should be checked out?

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...305,-85.758526&spn=0.011193,0.020084&t=h&z=16

Unfortunately, this article is as thin as this young man- I have about 40 questions before I can even think if he fits, if anyone sees any updates, please post.
if she was sleeping, how did she get his text and return a call at 4am?

 

[fran]

Weird circumstances. The text msg made me think of suicide. If that's the case he should be far away from his car. It sounds like it was left in a subdivision though. Whatever happened, robbery wasn't a motive.

ETA: Here is a link to a Google map of the road the car was found on. Although the car wasn't found on a road leading directly to numerous lakes and ponds in the area, they are in walking distance. Maybe they should be checked out?

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...305,-85.758526&spn=0.011193,0.020084&t=h&z=16

I believe suicide may have been discussed because of some statements made by his long-time gf. She said something to the effect that he wasn't depressed and in good spirits.

Of course, that doesn't rule out suicide, but it has apparently crossed everyone's mind.

You're right, I guess, they should check the close proximity waterways. After all, some of these guys have been known to walk a mile or across 8 lanes of a
busy highway to get to that waterway they were found 'accidentally' drowned in.:waitasec:

JMHO
fran

 

[fran]

I hope this doesn't sound too naive here, but did any of the victims know how to swim? I know that in cold water (especially the Mississippi) it wouldn't help them survive. If a high body temperature (such as allegedly produced by Ecstasy) was involved, would someone jump into a river trying to cool down? No matter how confused a person is, once they swim well, that "I can swim" knowledge is deep in the brain.
It used to be pretty common in the lake regions of the Midwest for swimming lessons to be "socially mandatory," in that parents were expected to ensure their children could swim. Even some colleges mandated PE and swim test requirements for graduation: I don't know if these requirements persist. Although I do think there is foul play involved in at least some of these cases, I could understand an intoxicated, hot, miserable guy thinking that a quick dip in a river would be a good idea. It might explain the folded clothes.
Also, in the cases where clothes were found, were they in good repair? I can't imagine someone being able to undress a 160# man without rips or popped buttons.

From what I've gathered, many of these guys did swim. Some were even known as 'strong' swimmers.

I too believe there was foul play in maybe, MANY of these cases. What I think this gathering of the multitude of cases may reveal, is LE may not be investigating these cases thoroughly enough and brushing them aside as a 'drunken accident,' when it wasn't.

JMHO
fran

 

[Roxye]

A little more on Daniel..

http://www.madisoncourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=4&SubSectionID=253&ArticleID=43456&TM=54438.13

Local law enforcement agencies conducted an extensive search near Clifty Falls State Park along Little Clifty Creek on May 10 after finding Reaves' car.

Madison Police Chief John Wallace said Reaves had lived in the area when he was younger and was known to hike in the area near where his car was found.

This one just doesn't feel connected to me.

http://finddanielreaves.blogspot.com/

 

[Blink34]

I too believe there was foul play in maybe, MANY of these cases. What I think this gathering of the multitude of cases may reveal, is LE may not be investigating these cases thoroughly enough and brushing them aside as a 'drunken accident,' when it wasn't.

I ran across this youtube video when searching through this youtube address; which was given to me by a colleague.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_Sk29TArIE


I have to say, I am, at a minimum, more confused than ever
From Fox story December 2007. Lilly was named as a suspect, we all knew that, however, he was/is the primary suspect of Dr. Gilbertson's crack collegiate grad squad as well, in December 2007. Unless I am missing something, the detectives were not yet part of this crime mapping, single serial killer profiling theory, and as we know there have been SEVERAL cases since then.. Specifically, the det's do not list Brian Shaffer as a possible vic, Dr. Gilbertson does. Moreover, if you buy the "smiley face" theory- than the smiley faces were not part of Gilbertson's theory even though in at least Chris Jenkins case he did a water study as to where he may have gone in.

For me, I don't see how you can prove that these "simley's" were at all of these sights they reported AT the actual crime scene, at the approximate time of death, regardless of where they went into the water. If you buy both theories (they combined forces so I think we have to make that assumption). The theory is that of a single serial killer- one person -completely conflicts with the data. Additionally, I am unaware of any effectiveness on crime mapping that encompasses multiple suspects in different locations. One of their statements is you have multiple vics on the same day in different locations- how does that prove out then? Help- is it my jet lag?

 

[Blink34]

A little more on Daniel..

http://www.madisoncourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=4&SubSectionID=253&ArticleID=43456&TM=54438.13



This one just doesn't feel connected to me.

Prayers for Daniel's family, unfortunately I agree with SuzQ, I think this may be a suicide, feeling that pretty strongly. Drives to his childhood stomping grounds at 4am where he has been known to hike alone, sends an I Love you text message. It is not uncommon in people that seriously wish to die, but not hurt their families, to commit suicide in a way that "masks the actual,"
Never the less, I sincerely hope that they investigate Dan's case thoroughly, and provide his family with answers they will be needing.

 

[Roxye]

Roxye, this weekend I will go thru each and every case listed in the footprintsatttheriversedge and post the ones that have the clothing removed or left at the bank. It's interesting, important and it's something that I had never heard about so thanks for the info. No telling how important each and every little thing will be in the end. Gpod job :clap:

I am still looking through my notes. Some are hand written and I have horrible writing... lol Some are on my old puter that I am hooking back up this weekend to transfer the info to a disc so I can search it as well.

My Nanny always said, "Knock enough heads together and your bound to come out with something useful."

 

[DeltaDawn]

I think what bothers me most is the timing of these deaths. If you said this age group of young men, partying, drinking, had sudden deaths in water in the months of May thru September..then I would find that believable. But the months of Sept thru June just do not add up..with most being during the very coldest months of the year. Being hot and drunk you might take off your coat and sweaters..but in October, November,December, January, February, March and April you do not decide to go swimming. Most of the places these deaths occur do not even open up public pools until Memorial Day weekend.

If that were the case then most of the college age men drowing in the US would be in cold weather months vs warm weather months..and they aren't. These cases are definitely different due to many factors..as well as their time frame.

 

[shadowraiths]

Additionally, I am unaware of any effectiveness on crime mapping that encompasses multiple suspects in different locations. One of their statements is you have multiple vics on the same day in different locations- how does that prove out then? Help- is it my jet lag?

Blink, in the instance of, say, pods, and expressly from a statistical viewpoint, I would expect a crime map to reveal disparate clusters. As for these cases? I am still a tad skeptical wrt the NYC cases due to the population ratio. For example, Manhattan, alone, has approx 7M living in the city that expands to 11M during weekdays from commuters going to work. Which basically increases the probability that there will be cases that are (tragically) nothing more than post-party/bar alcohol-related accidental drownings.

Another thing to consider is that the goal of my crime map is not to just cover "mysterious" missing/drownings, rather to catalogue those cases which do not fall into the more common, sports-related accidents. Or otherwise put, young men who seemingly "vanish" and either, remain missing or turn up in a body of water. In other words, the criteria is very specific. The end goal? To reveal a pattern, if one exists.

What I find most striking about these cases is a) only 40% of them involved alcohol and b) there is an obvious clustering in the midwest (as opposed to a random distribution across the US, and in those cities/towns that have colleges near large bodies of water). And even with the clustering, imho, the primary confound is those cases that involve liquor. This, in and of itself, increases the probability that some of these cases are, again, (tragically) nothing more than post-party/bar alcohol-related accidental drownings.

 

[Peculiar Petunia]

I think what bothers me most is the timing of these deaths. If you said this age group of young men, partying, drinking, had sudden deaths in water in the months of May thru September..then I would find that believable. But the months of Sept thru June just do not add up..with most being during the very coldest months of the year. Being hot and drunk you might take off your coat and sweaters..but in October, November,December, January, February, March and April you do not decide to go swimming. Most of the places these deaths occur do not even open up public pools until Memorial Day weekend.

If that were the case then most of the college age men drowing in the US would be in cold weather months vs warm weather months..and they aren't. These cases are definitely different due to many factors..as well as their time frame.

Essentially I agree with you, DeltaDawn. But if the GHB or Ecstasy, or whatever, is in the picture, could it leave these kids in such a suggestible state that someone might say, "Haw-haw-haw, it looks like you're thinking of going for a dip."?
And they do.

Heck, I'm baffled by college (and high school) students who run around in shorts in 40° weather. Going for a dip in October doesn't seem much more far-fetched to me.

 

[RR0004]

Petunia...IMO...I don't think you can just go fo a "dip" in the Mississippi. Yikes! I've seen some of the pics and they sure as heck scared me. Now, a lake may be another story. My daughter went to school in Wisconsin that's situated pretty much on 2 lakes. She's away now, but when she gets back I'll ask her if it was common for kids to jump in.

 

[Blink34]

Blink, in the instance of, say, pods, and expressly from a statistical viewpoint, I would expect a crime map to reveal disparate clusters. As for these cases? I am still a tad skeptical wrt the NYC cases due to the population ratio. For example, Manhattan, alone, has approx 7M living in the city that expands to 11M during weekdays from commuters going to work. Which basically increases the probability that there will be cases that are (tragically) nothing more than post-party/bar alcohol-related accidental drownings.

Another thing to consider is that the goal of my crime map is not to just cover "mysterious" missing/drownings, rather to catalogue those cases which do not fall into the more common, sports-related accidents. Or otherwise put, young men who seemingly "vanish" and either, remain missing or turn up in a body of water. In other words, the criteria is very specific. The end goal? To reveal a pattern, if one exists.

What I find most striking about these cases is a) only 40% of them involved alcohol and b) there is an obvious clustering in the midwest (as opposed to a random distribution across the US, and in those cities/towns that have colleges near large bodies of water). And even with the clustering, imho, the primary confound is those cases that involve liquor. This, in and of itself, increases the probability that some of these cases are, again, (tragically) nothing more than post-party/bar alcohol-related accidental drownings.

Sorry Shadow, to clearify my post:
I completely agree with everything you said, and was not referring to your crime map. I was referring to Dr. Gilbertson's and subsequent profile which does not make sense to me as I understand the logistics, circumstances, and in some cases the evidenciary findings.
To quote some forensic flick "the profile does not fit the profile."
I was more trying to point out the disparity between Gilbertson's findings circa 2007 and the current theories offered by the detectives- doesn't gazhinta for me..

Statistics and data offer up a pattern, we all agree on that. I'm simply stating that if this is MULTIPLE pods, with a heirarchy, that may not even tie to each other either in belief system or practice, the statistical pattern is invalid. I know the det's started out with 90 cases, and eliminated 50.
The question becomes, how were the 50 eliminated and how does that effect the crime map?

 

[murraydwyer]

Littledeer asked a question on Nick Garza's thread that has raised many questions for me, although I haven't been following this thread that closely and it may have already been asked here.

...I find it hard to believe that Nick had no fractures of any sort. If Otter Creek was as turbulent as some of the pictures I've seen and Nick was lodged by logs and other debris, wouldn't the force of the water, etc. cause some type of injury to his head and or limbs?

It would appear than many of these cases were ruled accidental drowning because there were "no signs of foul play", but as Littledeer points out, wouldn't many have sustained injuries from the force of the water, debris and from jumping from bridges. While some injuries would have been obviously post mortum, not all of these young men should have drowned immediately, leaving me to believe that at least some of the injuries would have been sustained before death. Could a coronor tell with any degree of certainty how the injury was caused? Has anybody looked at the types of credentials required for those doing autopsies...or whether actual autopsies were done.

I am aware that the qualifications for coronor vary from state to state...however, I just did a search and came up with qualifications for Georgia
http://www.co.henry.ga.us/Registrars/pdf/QUALIFICATIONS.pdf

Without some further research, I'm not sure, but I believe that a coronor can rule on the cause of death. I believe there are probably very different qualifications for a medical examiner, but would appreciate anybody who is better informed weighing in on this question.

 

[Blink34]

Littledeer asked a question on Nick Garza's thread that has raised many questions for me, although I haven't been following this thread that closely and it may have already been asked here.



It would appear than many of these cases were ruled accidental drowning because there were "no signs of foul play", but as Littledeer points out, wouldn't many have sustained injuries from the force of the water, debris and from jumping from bridges. While some injuries would have been obviously post mortum, not all of these young men should have drowned immediately, leaving me to believe that at least some of the injuries would have been sustained before death. Could a coronor tell with any degree of certainty how the injury was caused? Has anybody looked at the types of credentials required for those doing autopsies...or whether actual autopsies were done.

I am aware that the qualifications for coronor vary from state to state...however, I just did a search and came up with qualifications for Georgia
http://www.co.henry.ga.us/Registrars/pdf/QUALIFICATIONS.pdf

Without some further research, I'm not sure, but I believe that a coronor can rule on the cause of death. I believe there are probably very different qualifications for a medical examiner, but would appreciate anybody who is better informed weighing in on this question.

A coroner can tell with much certainty what wounds are peri and post mortem, provided that they "present" at recovery of remains..
The coroner, or ME, in EVERY state determines the cause of death, exclusively. It is the manner of death, in most cases, that is ruled on by LE, but must in most cases be agreed to by the coroner or ME.
In very rare cases (less than 1%) you may end up with an "undetermined" on both or either side of those classifications.
IMO, coroners should be required to be ME's and elected coroners should be abolished- it is a conflict of interest, pure and simple-

 

[believe09]

I think what bothers me most is the timing of these deaths. If you said this age group of young men, partying, drinking, had sudden deaths in water in the months of May thru September..then I would find that believable. But the months of Sept thru June just do not add up..with most being during the very coldest months of the year. Being hot and drunk you might take off your coat and sweaters..but in October, November,December, January, February, March and April you do not decide to go swimming. Most of the places these deaths occur do not even open up public pools until Memorial Day weekend.

If that were the case then most of the college age men drowing in the US would be in cold weather months vs warm weather months..and they aren't. These cases are definitely different due to many factors..as well as their time frame.

i understand your point, of course; however college aged men wouldn't be in school May to September, right? September to May or June is the school year, or am I stating the obvious?