Debate Thread for Caylee is alive

[Hailiejade77]

Question....

Is the date of KC borrowing the shovel the 18th? If so, why would she need to borrow a shovel to stop the bamboo shoots from growing and hurting Caylee's feet (according to Cindy) - since KC says her daughter has been missing since the 16th. Has the 18th been firmly established?

GREAT QUESTION! I never even thought of that. But that is so true,... WHY would she need the shovel if Caylee was missing already??? I can't believe no one brought that up before! :blowkiss:

 

[Brini]

I don't think it is so much the idea that many here are CONVINCED that Caylee is alive, it is that there are at least a few facts that indicate that she COULD be alive. They choose to hope that the small chance will turn out to be the miracle they hope for in this case.

My own small belief comes more from general concepts than facts:

1. A Zanaida does exist at the right place at the right time. She could easily have lied about knowing Casey, just as Casey could have lied in saying she did not recognize that ZG. While there is no evidence she ever lived at Sawgrass, it is possible that she could have been staying there in an apartment under someone else's name. It is also possible that someone else was using her name. People believe CA used this name fraudulently, why then couldn't someone else have done the same?

2. The strange story and behavior of Kiomare who had WANTED Caylee for some time. In addition to the supposed connections that posters have made between her and ZG.

3. I find the cryptic statements from JG's family to be interesting, along with the behavior of JG at the exact time of Caylee's disappearance.

4. Casey seemed to truly love Caylee, so many pictures, and Caylee looked happy in pictures with Casey. While some question this, it is NOT EASY to get a 2 1/2 to 3 year old to take dozens of pictures with someone they do not trust or feel comfortable with.

There are more, but this gets to the point. There are questions about people in this story that have no answers yet, just as there are no clear answers yet on the forensic evidence.

Three things are very clear:

1) Caylee is and has been missing.

2) There was dead body in the trunk of KCs car.

3) Hair was found with a death band and the DNA of an Anthony female. No other Anthony female is missing.

 

[Brini]

Maybe someone really did take Caylee. Maybe he/she saw Casey as unfit and wanted to keep Caylee to him/herself. If this person would go into the, what do you call it - that place that parents go to get help to change their identifies and to keep their children safe - the underground something. That could be the reason this person has not returned Caylee.

Then, whose was the dead body in the trunk, and why is there a death band on hair with Anthony female-line DNA?

 

[Brini]

:blowkiss:

I was once where you are.

I know LE can be corrupt. We've seen that with several cases. In this case, LE isn't corrupting anything that we can see, at this point. The fact they are holding their cards close instead of playing them, is shouting loud for me.

This is where Baez is playing his trump card. He is casting that edge of doubt. Which is what a good defense attorney has to do, not necessarily prove his client innocent, only give that little bit of doubt.

The girl found dead in the park...

I thought these same things at one time. I've also come to the mindset that Casey was aware of this also and timed/placed her comments to fit this, again, leaving doubt.

Casey has now told the script story and how she's afraid for Caylee's life. For one, the script and location I believe will coincide with where Caylee's body is found so the blame can be put on those players.

If Casey was afraid for Caylee's life, why party and act as if everything was normal? No script, with my child or grand child missing, will make me act normal. She was caught in lies and knows it. She created the script story to try and excuse the lies she was caught in.

Thank you for the links. I really do find your thoughts very interesting.

Which script story? Aren't we on another story, now?

If my child was missing I would NOT be partying and whining about whether "Tony loved me." When I wasn't camped out at the cop shop, giving them every bit of information I can think of, I'd be curled up in the fetal position, crying my eyes out and pounding on the floor with my fists.

 

[Brini]

Wouldn't there still be phone records to establish that Casey was in telephone contact w/said nanny, even if it were later disconnected? I thought this was refuted?

It was. LE found no contact with said Nanny. Ever.

 

[karenc333]

Suppose KC saw NG's murder...knew the murderer and murderer took Caylee.

That would mean Casey knows Caylee is with murderers. And she still will not talk to police? Sorry, I can't buy that.

She wouldn't necessarily talk to police if she thought the murderers would also kill Caylee if she did.

 

[Gma Kat]

Under this theory....and I really hope this one is true - because it would mean Caylee is alive and probably doing well......As desparate and despicable as KC can be....is it possible she sold her child????? I have such a hard time reconciling the loving pictures between mother adn daughter versus the pictures of KC partying adn her lack of emotion....Why haven't LE arrested KC for providing false info to the police? That is a crime in itself isn't it? Also, hindering an investigation? It would be harder to bail out of these charges and the facts already prove the charges don't they? JMO

 

[Brini]

I am honestly a fence-sitter, but do have a couple of relevant points re this topic:

The cadaver dogs - there are circumstances where they falsely hit, here are a couple of links to read about that.

http://www.k9fleck.org/articles/cadaver_dog.html
http://www.k9forensic.org/AAFSpaper.html - cadaver dog

The stain in the trunk: If the stain in the trunk were definitely decomp., wouldn't there be a homicide investigation, with or without a suspect? I understand about the speedy trial and discovery, but can't LE conduct a H.I. without arresting Casey first?

There would be no need for air testing if the stain was definitely decomp. Any body fluid yields DNA, although possibly degraded due to environmental conditions - the fluid itself would decompose, and doesn't necessarily indicate the person was dead. I hesitate to mention this, because I can't say it without doubt, but I thought I heard one of the spokespersons mention the stain contained amylase. I can't find it now, but another poster thought they heard something similar, mentioning epithilial cells, I don't think they found it either. This to me suggests vomit, which can go its own direction re chloroform.

I'm also new and a very slow poster, so pardon if I'm butting in somewhere.

KC was arrested because of child neglect and white collar thievery, not homicide.

It IS a homicide case now. LE announced that they were "no longer looking for a living person" weeks ago. The searches are for a dead body.

To confirm the decomposition, they had:1) a separate hit from each of two dogs from two separate counties, and 2) the Body Farm's report, and 3) the analysis of the stain, and other indicators, by the FBI crime labs. Those labs are among the finest in the world. That's a LOT of different testing to be wrong.

The chemical composition for corpse decomp is NOT he same as enviornmentally degraded DNA. Much of your house dust is shed skin cells. Under the scope, or in spectrometry they would not be mistaken for corpse material.

Amylase is an enzyme in the human body that breaks down starch and sugar, usually found in saliva. That might have been found as part of a stain, because the nose and mouth leak fluids, at death. With the discharge of fluids, there could also be some epithelial cells.

With vomit, there would also be pepsin and HCL. Possibly bile, as well.

Please don't forget the hair with the death band. It belonged to an Anthony female. Only one is missing.

Thanks, and welcome!

 

[Brini]

This is a typical statement, commonly made by people that have little or no respect for the Law.

Yep! Criminals rarely trust LE. She said she WOULD work with the FBI, then didn't.

KC was, at her VERY best, a thief. Why would she trust LE. Except in bed.

 

[Brini]

If the cadaver dogs hit on the trunk, but the possibility of it being another body is thought, then is that the same body that was in the back yard where the dogs also hit?

Then, whose other DNA did LE find? Where is the hair with a death band for another person?

 

[Brini]

It's pretty simple, in my opinion. Think about this:

Casey has NEVER called any "nanny". Ever. Cindy has her phone records, LE has her phone records.

If there had EVER been a nanny, there would be calls between her and Casey, for the last several months if not even the last couple years. Emails or chat too, as Casey lied about.

I am absolutely positive that LE, as well as Cindy, has checked out every single number Casey has called or been called from over the last several months (at least). If there were ANYTHING even remotely interesting, both LE and Cindy would have checked it out by now.

LE did a forensic exam of her computer. If there were ANY conversations between Casey and a nanny, I think we would know about it by now and LE would be investigating.

Nothing. Cindy knows this, but will not publicly admit it. Nancy Grace even called her on it, and Cindy had no answer and has not been on since.

No nanny, no kidnapping, all a lie to cover up what really happened. Why would ANY mother lie like this, if she really wanted her child found?

You could surmise that Casey sold her, or even hid her to keep her away from Cindy - but then there's that big elephant in the trunk. And that's not going away.

Great summary!

 

[GizzySmith]

Do not read if squeamish.

Brini, you sound like you have some medical knowledge. I have had some experience and I am trying to remember about decomp smell. So my question is, for there to have been a strong enough odor in the trunk that at least 3 people noticed (Cindy, tow yard guy, and IIRC a LE) wouldn't there needed to have been some type of remains that does not dry (blood dries unless there is a lot)? I remember doing a autopsy visit and it seemed like the odor clung even to the skin. I have wanted to ask this for a long time, I really have not found anything doing an internet search, found more than I need to know and really didn't want to read it all.

 

[Brini]

IMO IMO-- Casey could have been forced to get rid of the murder weapon so that she is no longer "just" a witness-she is implicated.

What murder weapon? How do we know there was one?

 

[Brini]

Wow!!! Didn't even go there! Great therory . . . and why would the jogger's murderer continue to keep Caylee alive this long? Or is this where the "safe family" comes in?

Where is the smallest particle of evidence that KC was in any way involved with Nicole's murder?

 

[Brini]

Ok, but there has been no one else that has come forward and said they have information.

I don't think a transaction such as this could be kept so hidden, be it handing off, adoption or murderers of this other body. I just believe if that was the case, someone else knows something.

If it were someone holding her for Casey.. a neighbor or someone would have seen her. Somebody would have come forward. This case is so highly publicized now. Everyone has a friend or enemy. Someone would have stepped forward.

Particularly if she was still alive. There would be $225,000 reasons for someone to come forward. And, LE would be happy to make a sweetheart deal with any informer.

 

[FootballMom]

Sorry I'm just now getting around to posting this from earlier conversations today, hope I'm in the right thread:

From the press interview with Commander Matt Irwin:

"We have scientific evidence back from the FBI lab. We have other evidence we have not yet released publicly, all of that evidence at this point in its totality leads our investigators to believe Caylee is deceased. We are open to new information about her whereabouts. We have other evidence that has not yet been returned to us that may suggest otherwise if so, we will pursue that information vigorously.”

When directly questioned about the hair and stain:
“We are certainly talking about the hair. The stain I am not prepared to get into at this point. That is not something we are not discussing.” [this could mean that either the stain was compromised/degraded, didn't produce the results they expected or the results have not yet been provided]

When directly questioned to be clear that the hair indeed belongs to Caylee Anthony:
“No, we are saying there is human decomposition in the car and that Caylee cannot be excluded from that." [see my statement below about the link]
When questioned about when a direct link of the hair to Caylee Anthony will be made: “That evidence is in a lab that is not controlled by us.” [this could suggest they don't have conclusive evidence returned to them that links the decomposing hair to Caylee]

Orange County State Attorney Lawson Lamar:"Law enforcement prosecution throughout all of this has been hoping and praying we find this child alive. That hope has been somewhat diminished by recent forensics." [forensics is not limited to lab results so IMA this is a broad statement]

 

[Brini]

Yes, "safe family" for now.



If the people who have Caylee believe her life is in danger if they come forward? If they love her they will keep her hidden.



Yes she, and thanks! I truly appreciate the opportunity to test my theories and I really do welcome all criticisms and questions for that reason.

No one would go to the FBI? They are experts at getting kidnap victims away from kidnappers.

 

[Brini]

A murder weapon would not have generated the smell that at least 4 independent human observers noted. It would take an actual body being in there for a stretch of time. The dogs would hit ona murder weapon, but human noses wouldn't. The same for brief contact.

There was a body in that trunk. It was in there long enough to stew for awile. i'm betting several days.

Yep! Days in the heat of high summer in FL. No WONDER KC wanted to be shed of the car!

 

[Brini]

I don't understand this statement and this is why .

When will she talk or will she just leave Caylee with whom ever indefinitely ? How will she ever get Caylee back if she never talks ?

How does she know Caylee hasn't already been harmed ??

Precisely, Irish!

 

[liltigress]

Do not read if squeamish.

Brini, you sound like you have some medical knowledge. I have had some experience and I am trying to remember about decomp smell. So my question is, for there to have been a strong enough odor in the trunk that at least 3 people noticed (Cindy, tow yard guy, and IIRC a LE) wouldn't there needed to have been some type of remains that does not dry (blood dries unless there is a lot)? I remember doing a autopsy visit and it seemed like the odor clung even to the skin. I have wanted to ask this for a long time, I really have not found anything doing an internet search, found more than I need to know and really didn't want to read it all.

I can only take a guess if that's ok?

I would think as a body decomposes and the fluids are released into the carpet of the car (assuming there is a type of carpet in the trunk) the fluids seep down into the carpet. If it was cleaned, and I would think it was (cleaning fluids from George) then that would be more of a surface cleaning. I don't see anyone pulling up the carpet to clean or replacing it. By that point, the decomp fluids were already doing their thing, KWIM?