Decriminalizing Polygamy

[Pepper]

Seems to me that since they have not filed as a tax exempt organization, i.e. church, then they can't use religious freedom as a defense for breaking the law. Can't have it both ways!

 

[Trino]

I agree Am, I dont see what the big deal is if they have a million wives just leave the underage girls being forced out of it.

It's not just the girls who are affected but the boys, too.

 

[golfmom]

Salem I would also think it would mean they would legally have to divulge who their husband was and that would impact their welfare.

Putting all that aside for a second.. Golfmom I was not talking about Texas specifically as a matter of fact the original article was about Utah.

I am not sure if the women in Texas qualified as even spiritually married unless they did all in fact live with their husband. (not living together would not make it legal under the law)

Lets say for the sake of debate some guy pops in to his various GF's homes every now and then for a couple of days ... The result is a few children by a few women .... He does not call himself a polygamist just a player with a few babies mommy's he sleeps with every now and then....
And I am sure Texas has their share of men like this as does every state...
SO what makes what he does any different then a polygamist?

I see well Utah law is specific in that no common-law / spiritual marriage is acknowledged unless the parties present themselves in front of a judge and swear their intent. So, those are not legal marriages and although polygamy is against the law, Utah turns it's head aside and ignores the issue. They said the only cases they will prosecute are in regards to child abuse. Unfortunately, with it being such a closed community, no one's calling to report diddley-squat.

As for Texas, they do not have to live together to be considered married. They can also just represent that they're married or agree that they're married. The "bishop's" lists will be invaluable IF Texas decides to prosecute.

The guy who runs around creating a wake of babies in his path is abhorrent, but not illegal ... just like the mom's who has hard time sorting out who's her babies daddy's.

 

[golfmom]

Seems to me that since they have not filed as a tax exempt organization, i.e. church, then they can't use religious freedom as a defense for breaking the law. Can't have it both ways!

Pepper, I read somewhere that they do in fact meet the criteria to be considered a church. The government doesn't force churches to be non-profit ... heck ... if they want to pay taxes, the government is more than happy to take their money.

 

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

I really don't have an issue with polygymany (sp?). If people WANT to commit to a life togther and raise children, who am I to say no. It seems wrong to me that people say it is ok to sleep with whom ever you want when ever you want in a non-committed relationship, but that the moment you try to commit to eachother for a life of raising children together there is an issue.

I suppose that this does beg to ask the question of what is marriage the same way gay/lesbian marriages do, but that is a whole different conversation.

Take tax issues out of this, take children being forced into marriage out of the issue, take compounds out of this issue. If all of those issues are put aside, what is the real issue with people who choose to live that way? There are so many cultures around the world that successfully practice polygamy.

I would have no issue with legalizing polygamy. Before i get beat up for saying that, that does not mean i believe in rape, forced marriage, being held in abusive relationships. I am simply saying that I think a committed polygamous relationship may work better for some people than simply sleeping around and having kids with 5 baby dads or however they say it.

 

[Vegas Bride]

I'm not concerned about the plural marriages if the people involved are concenting adults, not closely blood related and are ready and able to provide for their children. What I have a problem with is abuse of a baby, wives and children taken away from their husband and father if he falls out of favor and handed over to another man, young boys who are abandoned on the roadside to fend for themselves with no training on how to get along in the outside world, walls built and guards posted to keep people in, the mental and spiritual blackmail where people have such a fear for their soul that they will do anything for their profit, babies born with disabilities that are avoidable if people did not marry close relatives and having many questions about just what does happen to these babies? Why so many babies in the graveyard?
I look at the flds like a cancer, if something isn't done to stop all the abuse it will continue to spread, Utah and Arizona have both failed and IMO Texas is not willing to let the cancer continue to spread there. It's going to take some time and many things will need to get sorted out but in the end I hope there will be less abuse.
Texas is not the guilty party here, IMO Warren Jeffs is responsible for everything that has happened, he and his cronies built a house of cards that was bound to fall.

VB

 

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

I'm not concerned about the plural marriages if the people involved are concenting adults, not closely blood related and are ready and able to provide for their children. What I have a problem with is abuse of a baby, wives and children taken away from their husband and father if he falls out of favor and handed over to another man, young boys who are abandoned on the roadside to fend for themselves with no training on how to get along in the outside world, walls built and guards posted to keep people in, the mental and spiritual blackmail where people have such a fear for their soul that they will do anything for their profit, babies born with disabilities that are avoidable if people did not marry close relatives and having many questions about just what does happen to these babies? Why so many babies in the graveyard?

Good comments. There are soooo many problems to deal with. Polygamy and religion seem to be what they hide all of these other problems behind. I don't have a problem with pologamy or religion. I have a problem with it being used to conceal and fortify all of these issues.

 

[FlowerChild]

Here's how I view it:

So long as BOTH PARTIES are adults of 18 or older and consent freely ---
I don't care who "marries" who - I don't care if two men marry, two women marry or if a man or woman marries 6 spouses (of whatever sex).

So long as NONE of it is illegal and it doesn't CONDONE illegal activities or violence or ABUSE ---
I don't care what religion people practice or raise their children in - Wicca, Amish, Mennonite, Quaker, Buddhist, Muslim, Christian Science, it can be New Age or Christian Fundamentalism - doesn't matter to me personally. I don't want it pushed on ME, but people should be free in the US to worship (or not) as they please and raise their children (without harm or abuse) in their belief system.

The ONLY thing I care about in the FLDS Case is ABUSE of the children, defrauding the Govt, abandonment of male children, the insufficient (8th grade) education, the genetic disorders due to inbreeding, lack of proper state OVERSIGHT over births, deaths and legal matters and the marriages of underage girls (to ANYONE, no matter their age).

If their way is so superior to everyone else's and they are "right" then the girls will be even happier to marry at age 18 or older. If they are such superior parents, they won't mind CPS checking on them and making sure they aren't "breaking and training" their children and infants with TORTURE. If they truly "need" their children, then they will support them ALL (boys and girls) and educate them thru 12th grade or until they are 18. If they are so "righteous" then they will obtain Birth and death certificates and file EACH with the state as necessary. If they are so "innocent "they won't need walled compounds and guns. If they are so "successful and self sufficient" , then we (the taxpayer) won't need to give them ANY state aid or funds or health care.

Funny how when the FLDS is up the creek in a storm without a paddle how the nasty ol' Gov't that they only used for MONEY before starts looking like a pretty safe haven. They DISDAINED and CHEATED the the "beast" for 100 years and now they stand before the "head" of that same beast asking for his help.

The FLDS has spent 100 years getting THEIR WAY and living by THEIR OWN RULES and LAWS and now, like a spoiled child, they are throwing a mighty tantrum because they have finally been told NO and that they have to follow the same LAWS everyone else does!

Hey, I hear there are some lovely ISLANDS for sale, perhaps the FLDS can use their millions to BUY one and have their own little isolated COUNTRY - isn't that even BETTER than the YFZ Ranch?? They have have wanted to be apart from everyone else in the world for 100 years and be in charge of EVERYTHING in their world - an island would be PERFECT. Of course they'd have to give up their incomes, their companies, their medical care assistance and "bleeding the beast" and start over on their own but they do believe they are His chosen people so don't they believe "God Will Provide"???

My Opinion

 

[mollymalone]

This town in Mexico was where others fled to before - they don't want the flds fleeing down to their community, they're not welcome, including those who have family down there. In 2002 Orson Black fled there from the U.S. and was kicked out of town by its residents.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...o/stories/050808dnmexicomormons.dc0e95bf.html
Polygamy in Colonia LeBaron today is only practiced by consenting adults, said Mr. Jones, who is widely respected as a community leader and bridge builder. He served as Galeana's first American mayor, a reference to his blonde hair and blue eyes, from 2001 to 2004. Those who practice polygamy stay within the law by not being legally married to more than one person and their numbers are dwindling. The Chihuahua native is married to one of Alma Dayer LeBaron's granddaughters and he does not practice polygamy. If we're doing plural marriage at all, we're doing it within the law, within freedom of choice, Mr. Jones said. And maybe that's why we're living plural marriage less and less because there is not the religious push anymore toward doing that.

 

[mollymalone]

SNIP
Funny how when the FLDS is up the creek in a storm without a paddle how the nasty ol' Gov't that they only used for MONEY before starts looking like a pretty safe haven. They DISDAINED and CHEATED the the "beast" for 100 years and now they stand before the "head" of that same beast asking for his help. SNIP

"Willie Jessop, a de facto spokesman in Eldorado for that group, said the idea that members of his sect would move to Mexico is ludicrous. They want to stay near their children most of whom are in foster care, Mr. Jessop said. And they may be disenchanted with the U.S. government, but they don't feel they'd have greater protection south of the border. I would never send any wife or child of mine down there, he said.

 

[Seeker]

I am a bit confused as I thought that Polygamist perform their own ceremony and are not usually legally married.

I really don't have a problem with some guy marrying a dozen women.
My problem is the underage girls forced into marriage and that under the current laws more often then not these Women have babies and then state aide supports them.

Why is it criminal to have a bunch of wives anyways?

I hear you. The fact is that the bible recognizes many wives as being ok and I have often wondered if these sects aren't following that as their prime example....I think they've lost something in the translation though.
I do worry about the children not knowing who their biological parents are and their possible close blood relationship to whomever they may one day marry. This goes for the girls and boys. I don't believe any child (or adult) should ever be forced into a marriage...of any kind.

I have always believed that it was just "man's law" that dictated one man and one woman be "married". I didn't know there was an actual monogomus marriage performed in the bible...I'll have to look again. If this is indeed what these religious sects are following (the many wives aspect) then they need to quit skewing it to suit their debauchery.

Of course I don't believe in polygamy for myself, but that's my choice.

I was suprised to learn many countries still practice polygamy.

What has been happening with these cultists isn't even polygamy, it's private home grown pedophilia and it's sick.

 

[FlowerChild]

Yes, polygamy (and marriage of girls/boys under 18) is practiced in cultures all over the world - the difference is that in those countries it is both legal and socially/culturally accepted. That is NOT the case in the US. Here it remains ILLEGAL to have more than one wife/husband OR to MARRY or have SEX WITH A CHILD.

Frankly I could give a FLIP how many spiritual wives some weird yayhoo of a man has...so long as he is honest with ALL his "wives" about how many wives he has and they ALL are over 18 when he does the whole "celestial plural marriage" thing with them or they start a family. I don't believe a "spiritual wife" is entitled to ANY assistance either - she should be considered the same as a legal wife - so the "husband" has to be able to FULLY SUPPORT ALL of his WIVES AND CHILDREN himself. If they are going to embrace the idea of polygamy, then they should also have to embrace supporting their families - as in NO STATE OF FEDERAL MONEY or SERVICES - if they believe God intends them to have 7 wives and 60 children then surely "God will provide" the husband a job to support all of them.

If we want to STOP the cycle of abuse and child-brides I think the FLDS children should be required to attend an accredited public school or an accredited private school until they are 18 or graduate - NOT home schooling, but a school that maintains the STATE REQUIREMENTS for graduation. Right now, I can assure you the "home schooling" the children get IS NOT approved by the state and does NOT meet state educational requirements. The women "teaching" likely didn't graduate from HS themselves. Putting the children into a real educational environment, with certified teachers where religious training and chores CANNOT be a part of the curriculum, would prepare the children for ANY life they decide to live - within the FLDS or outside it. Nothing needs to change, - there can even be a dress code or a uniform that meets FLDS wardrobe requirements and Religious "training" and chores can continue - before and after school, on weekends and in the summer. THEN - If AFTER GRADUATING and turning 18 the children wish to be polygamous - well great, but they won't be doing it out of ignorance with no education or knowledge of the world outside the FLDS.

My Opinion

 

[yolorado]

My beef with polygamy (one man, many women) is that it trends in the direction we're watching right now-toward deifying men, giving them more and more control, and away from women's rights and women's education, toward younger and younger brides. You've got a situation where 1 man has 3 or 5 or 70 wives (usually his decision) and a woman has 1/3rd, 1/5th or 1/70th of a husband (usually not really her choice.) I've never had a sister wife, but I've had a mother-in-law (who I grew over time to love and adore) but from that experience, I decided that two women competing for the love of 1 man can create a lot of problems, even leaving romance or marriage out of it. Not saying it can't be done, but I think it goes against human nature, and I've never seen anything that would tell me it's God's plan in any way. Plus, there's the problem of excess men. In a society that gives men, but not women, plural spouses, many men will need to go without. What happens to the excess guys? How does it impact them and the rest of society? Generally speaking, I think it tends to be better for society, and the people in it, if people are settled with significant others and family participants. I especially think it's good for society to make a place for as many men as possible to be husbands and fathers. Polygamy leaves a lot of men out. A lot of people think that's why there are so many suicide bombers in the Middle East. When the economy doesn't provide gainful employment and there’s not much chance of marriage and family in their future, it’s possible to see why some opt for 70-something virgins in the hereafter as an alternative to bleak prospects on earth in the hear and now.

 

[Pepper]

Well said yolorado!

Any time man tries to screw with natures intent, problems arise. As you said polygamy in this culture leaves men without wives, and the competition needs to be dealt with.

In China there is a requirement to have only one child. Since males are preferred, there is a shortage of wives now for the adult men. We can only guess about the number of abortions or infant murders that befall female babies.

It's just not natural.

 

[KR2tonenow]

- she should be considered the same as a legal wife - so the "husband" has to be able to FULLY SUPPORT ALL of his WIVES AND CHILDREN himself. If they are going to embrace the idea of polygamy, then they should also have to embrace supporting their families - as in NO STATE OF FEDERAL MONEY or SERVICES - if they believe God intends them to have 7 wives and 60 children then surely "God will provide" the husband a job to support all of them.

I shortened the above. I think this point is well taken. These men want it all at FLDS. All the women they want, all the children they want and the goverment to pick up the bill. They are in this mess, because of the abuse issues and for breaking the law. Welfare fraud applies to all american citizens. Not one is excluded.

 

[Peculiar Petunia]

3 great posts that are a hard act to follow. Even in nature things go wrong when you have >1 mate/male. Look at zoos' problems with lion genetics.
The only situation I could ever see polygamy being understandable would be after a terrible war with near-total annihilation of the men, or after an epidemic that for some reason would wipe out men, not women.

 

[mollymalone]

"The only way for avoidance of taxes on the "Temple" building is to declare it a place of public worship and open it as such to the public. If not open to the public, it is considered as being privately held and as such is therefore considered as taxable property."

Of course they're not going to open it to the public... and WJ shut down the meeting house in CC where they held services at one time.

 

[Pepper]

"The only way for avoidance of taxes on the "Temple" building is to declare it a place of public worship and open it as such to the public. If not open to the public, it is considered as being privately held and as such is therefore considered as taxable property."

Of course they're not going to open it to the public... and WJ shut down the meeting house in CC where they held services at one time.

So does that mean that all LDS temples are taxed? None of them allow non "temple recommend" members or any outsiders inside their temples.

 

[mollymalone]

So does that mean that all LDS temples are taxed? None of them allow non "temple recommend" members or any outsiders inside their temples.

YFZ is taxed and they did pay their taxes. We'll see whether that continues though come next tax time. As far as the LDS, I have no idea. I think I read that they filed for exemption? Perhaps someone else knows the answer.

 

[yolorado]

So does that mean that all LDS temples are taxed? None of them allow non "temple recommend" members or any outsiders inside their temples.

Good question. I'm not LDS, but I have family and friends who are and I've toured two temples with them, one after remodeling and the other after initial construction, both before they were blessed, or sanctified, whatever the term. Once that was done, they were closed to the public. But I doubt they are taxed.