GUILTY Denmark - Kim Wall, 30, Copenhagen, 10 Aug 2017

[Legally Bland]

I've got a dodgy internet connection ATM and on mobile so can't really fornat this. Reads from bottom to top.

@julieastridthom
34m
The defence says Kim Wall's DNA was also found on the ladder leading to the hatch: "Why would her DNA have been found on this latter if it wasn't because she tried to get out?" @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
36m
Defence: "Kim Wall's DNA was found on the handle on the front hatch, indicating that she tried to open this hatch. If this information doesn't support my client's story, I don't know what it does," adds, the DNA was not from blood @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
42m
#PeterMadsen's defence is working hard to prove that witness lieutenant commander Dyreborg is not reliable, saying she guessed instead of examining in several cases. Prosecutor called Dyreborg "Denmark's leading submarine expert" earlier today @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall

@julieastridthom
51m
Defence: "That the cause of death is not known for certain could be of high importance." The prosecutor said earlier today that it did not matter exactly how Kim Wall was murdered, just that prosecution believed she was @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
1h
Were back from a break. Madsen's defence will continue @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
1h
The court goes on a 5 minute break @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
1h
Lieutenant commander Dyreborg testified on day 8 of trials and said exhaust gasses in the submarine would have showed on the filters. The witness from The Danish Technological Institute (an engineer) did not necessarily think so @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen twitter.com/julieastridtho…

https://twitter.com/julieastridthom/status/988387507271331840 #PeterMadsen's defence attorney underlines, there were differences in the source from the Danish Technological Inst… https://t.co/CmL4OIdr8h

@julieastridthom
1h
#PeterMadsen's defence attorney underlines, there were differences in the source from the Danish Technological Institute's testimony and in the one from (in the defence's words) "self proclaimed submarine expert" lieutenant commander Dyreborg @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall

@julieastridthom
1h
"Some logic is missing in that story about what happened in the submarine, that the prosecutor so badly wants to tell," Madsen's defence tells the court, adds she doesn't think there's substantial physical evidence @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
1h
Madsen's defence reminds the court of the saying: "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer." @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
1h
Defence: "It cannot be dismissed, that many of the witnesses were biased when they arrived in court." @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
1h
"My client has been helpful throughout, by sharing his route. There is no doubt, that my client has done what he could. The only thing he changed was his story about, how Kim Wall died," Madsen's defence tells the court @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
1h
#PeterMadsen's defence of charge of sexual assault without intercourse: "If there's no proof, Wall was alive (red. when she was stabbed), he has to be acquitted." (A charge of sexual assault without intercourse requires that the victim is alive) @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall

@julieastridthom
1h
Madsen's defence repeats the words "objective" and subjective" to the court. She previously accused prosecution of being subjective @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
2h
Defence: "My client doesn't have to prove, that he didn't do what he is charged with. The prosecutor has to prove that he did without reasonable doubt." @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
2h
"Just because this case has been discussed, not only in Denmark but also in other parts of the world, it doesn't change the fact, that the requirements remain the same," Madsen's defence attorney tells the court @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
2h
Madsen's defence asks members of the court to ignore the way the case has been presented in the press before and during the trial @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
2h
Defence: "Even though we have been sitting here in court, listening to the same things, we have not perceived it in the same way." @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
2h
Defence: "The prosecutor has not had a single real, manageable piece of evidence" @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
2h
Defence: "This is a special case. There is no doubt that this is a case originating from a horrible tragedy," adds "whether you like it or not, accidents happen" @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
2h
We're back from a break in Copenhagen. Now Madsen's defence will take the word @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

 

[Legally Bland]

Bottom to top again.
_________________

julieastridthom
1h
Madsen's defence about the police investigation of Madsen's devices: "They did not look at the broader image as they should, and especially in a case of this character:" @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
1h
"Look at how many people are following this case. Everyone has an interest in criminal cases. In that way, Peter Madsen doesn't stand out from the rest of the Danish population," the defence tells the court @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
1h
A witness who was invited told the court that she was at first invited with her boyfriend and children, but the next time Madsen wrote her, it was only her, she said @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen twitter.com/julieastridtho…

https://twitter.com/julieastridthom/status/988400497223766016 Defence: "None of the women who were invited to the submarine can confirm that they were without a doubt invited to… https://t.co/jN87t9982c

@julieastridthom
1h
Defence: "None of the women who were invited to the submarine can confirm that they were without a doubt invited to go alone."

 

[Shiressleuth]

TY LB. Easier to read than my novice attempt. I am on a mobile too and only just worked out how to C/P. I will be surprised at anything other than guilty. It's just the sentencing in question maybe. I feel for KW's family and friends as well as all her fellow journalist in the courtroom reporting on one of their own. A dreadful job for them knowing she was just doing her job at the time.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Continued 1hr to 2 hrs ago, read from bottom up.

@Maddysavage

Judge in*#PeterMadsen*murder trial has confirmed there will be a verdict on Wednesday at 1300 local time (1200 BST). The Danish inventor is accused of killing the talented Swedish freelance journalist*#KimWall*on board his submarine last August and dismembering her body.*twitter.com/californiarobi…View location*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin1hThe judge announces that the judgement and the sentencing will be announced on Wednesday 25 April at 13:00. See you on Wednesday.*#KimWall*#PeterMadsen#submarinecase*#submarinetrial*#dkjuraView details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin1hThe judge asks*#PeterMadsen*is he has a statement.*#PeterMadsen*says “No, except that I am really, really sorry about happened.”#KimWall*#PeterMadsen*#submarinecase#submarinetrial*#dkjuraView details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin1hNeither should*#KimWall's boyfriend claim compensation. It is a new relationship and they didn't officially live together. Note:*#KimWall's parents & boyfriend combined ask for 25,000 dollars in compensation.*#KimWall#PeterMadsen*#submarinecase#submarinetrial*#dkjuraView details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin1hDefense says that compensation to*#KimWall's parents. Everyone is close to their families. There has to be a common life together (such they live together).*#KimWall*#PeterMadsen#submarinecase*#submarinetrial*#dkjuraView details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin1hDefense is trying to show that the mental declaration provides information that is taken out of context and blown up to make an assessment. Is it enough to declare him guilty?#KimWall*#PeterMadsen*#submarinecase#submarinetrial*#dkjuraView details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin1hThe mental declaration talks about how#PeterMadsen*looked, including that he had very distinctive glasses - but he usually wears contacts.*#KimWall*#submarinecase#submarinetrial*#dkjuraView details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin1hDefense suggests that it would be better to conduct such a analysis after someone is declared guilty to see if they present a danger to others.*#KimWall*#PeterMadsen#submarinecase*#submarinetrial*#dkjuraView details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin1hThe prosecutor has built his entire case on the mental declaration. But it can't be used as evidence...Witnesses describe a different person, including people who have known him for 16 years.*#KimWall*#PeterMadsen#submarinecase*#submarinetrial*#dkjuraView details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin2hThe defense attorney is going through previous cases where the defendant got safe custody. Most of them involve people who have involved repeat crimes according to the defense.#KimWall*#PeterMadsen*#submarinecase#submarinetrial*#dkjuraView details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin2hIf there is talk of safe custody, a concrete assessment must be made – the accused's danger and his previous criminality, which is not the case here, says the defense.*#KimWall#PeterMadsen*#submarinecase#submarinetrial*#dkjuraView details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin2hThe court has to consider whether it is at all necessary to decide on safe custody.*#KimWall#PeterMadsen*#submarinecase#submarinetrial*#dkjuraView details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin2hThe prosecutor is talking about something different than the precedence (past legal cases that are similar) I see here.*#KimWall#PeterMadsen*#submarinecase#submarinetrial*#dkjuraView details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin2hCorrection: Forensics could NOT say with certainty how the marks occurred.#KimWall#PeterMadsen*#submarinecase#submarinetrial*#dkjura*twitter.com/CaliforniaRobi…View details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin2hMy client can not be sentenced to more than six months (for dismemberment aof a body). He can not be judged for negligent manslaughter. He has not committed an deliberate murder in any way.*#KimWall*#PeterMadsen#submarinecase*#submarinetrial*#dkjuraView details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin2hThere is no evidence to say that the stabbings occurred in connection with the onset of death. Therefore, there is no is evidence to be judged for sexual behavior.*#KimWall*#PeterMadsen#submarinecase*#submarinetrial*#dkjuraView details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin2h64% of women wish to be sexually dominated, 52% bonded & 36% whipped, so obviously it fills allot among many people. But not in#PeterMadsens*life, according to witnesses.#KimWall*#submarinecase*#submarinetrial#dkjuraView details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin2hRe cause of death. When a head has been in the water for so long, nothing is certain. Nothing.#KimWall*#PeterMadsen*#submarinecase#submarinetrial*#dkjuraView details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin2hThere is therefore nothing abnormal that my client has seen these videos - it would even be more abnormal if he did not. And there is nothing sexual about it.*#KimWall#PeterMadsen*#submarinecase#submarinetrial*#dkjuraView details*·****Robin Elizabeth Herr@CaliforniaRobin2hA survey conducted in the United States reveals that there are many people who see repulsive execution videos, even though they don’t really like them.*#KimWall*#PeterMadsen#submarinecase*#submarinetrial*#dkjuraView details*·****

 

[Shiressleuth]

Having just read what I C/P I am flabbergasted. He only said "I am sorry about what happened?" Half a dozen words. (Eta - I am very, very sorry about what happened. 8 words - still meaningless BS. He is more sorry for himself IMO.)

His lawyer says he should only get 6 months for dismemberment. CRAZY - he's been in custody 8 months already so he would be free.

The stuff she said about women wanting to be abused was a disgrace IMO.

Verdict on Wednesday 1300.

 

[Legally Bland]

@julieastridthom
34m
The defence says Kim Wall's DNA was also found on the ladder leading to the hatch: "Why would her DNA have been found on this latter if it wasn't because she tried to get out?" @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

@julieastridthom
36m
Defence: "Kim Wall's DNA was found on the handle on the front hatch, indicating that she tried to open this hatch. If this information doesn't support my client's story, I don't know what it does," adds, the DNA was not from blood @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall #PeterMadsen

So it's agreed that Kim was alone in a submarine with a man who mutilated her body, but the most plausible explanation for why she may have wanted to escape is CO poisoning. Okay then.

This is pretty desperate.

But this trial feels a bit alien to me, I really hope I'm predicting this right. He can't walk free, can he?

 

[Shiressleuth]

So it's agreed that Kim was alone in a submarine with a man who mutilated her body, but the most plausible explanation for why she may have wanted to escape is CO poisoning. Okay then.

This is pretty desperate.

But this trial feels a bit alien to me, I really hope I'm predicting this right. He can't walk free, can he?

Of course her dna was on the hatch and the ladder. She initially climbed down into the sub and PM tried to drag her body up out of it before deciding to cut it up to make it easier. Nobody found any evidence of CO or evidence of a head injury based on PM versions 2*and 3

I hope this will not be believed. His defence is what exactly? He killed her but he's not responsible for it?

 

[Moll]

No, his defence is still that it was an accident because his lawyer is saying the expert evidence for the prosecution about his CO2 story was not expert, whereas theirs was. I suppose the judge has to evaluate that.
The prosecutor hasn't mentioned - has he? - that the second expert witness then said it could have worked as Madsen now says, but the heat would have left burn marks - where? Was it on the body, or on the sub, or both?

I still think the technical stuff is a sort of red herring. Of course PM is in the best position to think up plausible alternatives to the truth. But as the prosecutor said, the fact that he lied all the time and changed his story as new evidence emerged, means that he is a completely unreliable witness (EDIT I mean defendant, exercising his right to lie).
'The only thing he changed was his story about how Kim Wall died', says the defence lawyer. Oh yes. That little matter.
'When a head has been in the water for so long, nothing is certain, ' she says. Oh yes. And remind us how that happened? Your client chopped this woman's head off and made sure it was in the water long enough for that to be the case. The prosecutor nailed all that, I think. The trouble is, you can forget how colossally incriminating everything is when the defence leads you down these paths.

 

[Legally Bland]

@julieastridthom
42m
#PeterMadsen's defence is working hard to prove that witness lieutenant commander Dyreborg is not reliable, saying she guessed instead of examining in several cases. Prosecutor called Dyreborg "Denmark's leading submarine expert" earlier today @SkyNews #SubmarineTrial #KimWall

Whether anything she said was technically wrong, I don't think it matters. Even the defence expert agreed that there was no evidence of the temperatures that would have been reached had the sub had been flooded with exhaust fumes.

I still think it boils down to this.

 

[Chiatos]

Further evidence is shown in his searches for ---------------- which he again searched for on his telephone on 10 Aug. at 00:35
https://twitter.com/CaliforniaRobin/status/988338458270760961


I thought that his phone had disappered? Can police trace his internet searches -made by a missing phone- ?

 

[Legally Bland]

Further evidence is shown in his searches for ---------------- which he again searched for on his telephone on 10 Aug. at 00:35
https://twitter.com/CaliforniaRobin/status/988338458270760961


I thought that his phone had disappered? Can police trace his internet searches -made by a missing phone- ?

I'd imagine so. Internet service provider/search engine/browser. There will be a digital record of his activity.

 

[Moll]

Yes, they said that - but for some reason it wasn't possible to do it with Kim Wall's phone. They just had the messages her boyfriend received. Though come to think of it Madsen's searches were more vital to retrieve than hers, they just needed her last messages.

 

[SATA]

So it's agreed that Kim was alone in a submarine with a man who mutilated her body, but the most plausible explanation for why she may have wanted to escape is CO poisoning. Okay then.

This is pretty desperate.

But this trial feels a bit alien to me, I really hope I'm predicting this right. He can't walk free, can he?

NO, he can not !!!

I am on holiday, so I haven´t been following today, and Wednesday will be difficult too.
I hope he will never be let out again. I don´t think he will.

 

[Chiatos]

I'd imagine so. Internet service provider/search engine/browser. There will be a digital record of his activity.

In that case then, IF PM filmed his crime with his phone, it can be assumed that he did not transmit it afterwards (with his phone). Otherwise that would have been mentioned at the trial. It would have part of the evidence.

 

[Moll]

Chiatos - yes, it would, but the fact that it was not on his phone does not prove he did not film it. There was also a missing memory card from his camera.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Chiatos - yes, it would, but the fact that it was not on his phone does not prove he did not film it. There was also a missing memory card from his camera.

He could have filmed it on his phone, sent it via an app, then deleted the film and/or disposed of the phone. We know he disposed of the phone. He texted his wife (after KW was murdered) with it and they have a record of that, perhaps from the wife's phone.

:cow:

 

[Moll]

He could have filmed it on his phone, sent it via an app, then deleted the film and/or disposed of the phone. We know he disposed of the phone. He texted his wife (after KW was murdered) with it and they have a record of that, perhaps from the wife's phone.

:cow:

Yes, I don't think he realised what they could retrieve without the phone itself. But you're thinking this crime record still exists somewhere the police have not discovered - with these mysterious customers in Spain, for instance? I can't quite believe that or the possibility would have been mentioned.

Mind you, I also can't remember how much they have made of the missing phone card, which I had assumed was something he'd meant to exploit later but hadn't planned right. A bit like the underwear the prosecution say he could have meant to plant somewhere ashore. That assumes he originally thought he would get a chance to go ashore without encountering the authorities.

I don't think any of this is necessary to prove his guilt, though it would add certainty to the motivation of course.

 

[Moll]

Associated Press report in the Mail giving basic timeline:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap...ase-against-Danish-inventor-Peter-Madsen.html

and a Copenhagen Post summary of yesterday giving too much (in my opinion) stress on the defence.
http://cphpost.dk/news/peter-madsen-trial-day-11-recap-as-defence-calls-for-six-month-sentence.html

 

[Shiressleuth]

I'm feeling like I have read enough.

I just want the verdict now. This is the first trial I have followed on WS apart from the mistrial of the guy accused of tampering with his wife's parachute, so am getting a bit trial weary now. :waiting:

 

[Logical_Inference]

Today is the day!

I think that the news-channel tv2news might be transmitting from the court today. I think I read somewhere at some point, that it is the only day where they would allow any signals going out from court, so I will keep a close watch on that channel. Maybe some outlandish channels will broadcast too, like BBC news or so.

I would expect that Ekstra-bladet also will have their usual live-blog, and there should be many foreign journalists too, who will report in various media.

There has been several articles the last week or so about other cases here that has similar "unclear areas" like a missing body or a missing COD, and where the court ruled that the accused was guilty anyway, so I have high hopes for that PM will be locked up forever.