GUILTY Denmark - Kim Wall, 30, Copenhagen, 10 Aug 2017

[FlashyHydra]

This case reminds me of Oscar Pistorius, only that PM tried to cover up the scene by hiding her body. The question is...how long will he be serving in prison, for life...?

 

[MONDA]

This case reminds me of Oscar Pistorius, only that PM tried to cover up the scene by hiding her body. The question is...how long will he be serving in prison, for life...?

Murder is a maximum of 12 years in Denmark. If you are diagnosed as mentally ill (and dangerous) there is no set length.

 

[MONDA]

This case reminds me of Oscar Pistorius, only that PM tried to cover up the scene by hiding her body. The question is...how long will he be serving in prison, for life...?

I see no comparison whatsoever. In the Pistoriuscase you had the body, the murder weapon, and even the perpetrator. The case was simply about why she was killed. Either, as Pistorius claimed, by accident (he thought it was a burglar), or by a deliberate act of violence against her.

Edit: I can't edit my previous post, but it's 16 years not 12. Theoretically you can get life, but a life sentence is 12-16 years in praxis.

 

[Logical_Inference]

Todays news.

Translated in google:

Criminal and judicial repatriation
The search for Kim Wall continues with specially-trained Swedish dogs.

No secret cavity has been found in Peter Madsen's submarine Nautilus.
Copenhagen police conclude this, after scan of the submarine with a mobile truck scanner.
"There were cavities where we were waiting to find cavities - but there was nothing to be found," says Jens Møller.

However, the investigation of the killed Swedish journalist Kim Wall continues in Køge Bay, where investigators in the near future receive help from specially trained Swedish dogs trained to search for water.

Search continues
However, when the dogs had finished searching for Tuesday, they had not found anything - but the search continues depending on the conditions on the water, according to the killer chief.

Peter Madsen denies guilty but is charged with killing according to section 237 of the Criminal Code - in part or in part for negligent manslaughter under particularly aggravating circumstances. In addition, he is charged with unfair dealing with equals.

He is sentenced to custody until September 5, when the police will have to resign him to a judge if he wishes to remain in prison.

http://nyheder.tv2.dk/krimi/2017-08...en hemmelige rum i Peter Madsens ubåd:article (In danish)
***********************************************************************
Even before the constitutional court, Peter Madsen had told Kim Wall to be dead and her body thrown into the sea.

Even before the murdered rocket and submarine builder Peter Madsen was made in a constitutional court in Copenhagen City, he had told police that the reporter Kim Wall had died.

Peter Madsen had told the investigators that an accident had occurred on the submarine and that he had subsequently "buried her at sea". This is evidenced by a court order from the Østre Landsret.

Madsen was heard in court on Saturday, 12 August. It happened for closed doors for the sake of the investigation and for the sake of Kim Wall's relatives. On Monday, the court chose to publish the essence of Madsen's explanation.

Kim Wall was killed in an accident, and Peter Madsen had "buried her at sea," it said in the published announcement.

But the explanation - or at least one who reminded of it - had Madsen already given the police before the hearing, is apparent from the national court's legal order.

The court of law emphasizes that Kim Wall's relatives were not informed of Madsen's explanation before the constitutional hearing, and among other things, there was a basis for closing the doors, according to the law.

Statutory decision on door closure
The district court has dealt with the case after Ritzau chose to dear the city court's orders for door closure. Ritzau did not mean that the court of appeal had justified its orders sufficiently.

The district court does not relate to the adequacy of the District Court's orders. However, based on the information provided by the Public Prosecutor and the District Court, it has been decided to confirm the door closure orders.

In addition to the lack of notification of relatives, the national court refers to the fact that the rescue and investigation of the submarine on 12 August was not completed and that Kim Wall was requested at that time.

At the constitutional hearing, the district court ruled that there was "at least" reason to suspect that Madsen had neglected, and under particularly aggravating circumstances, Kim Wall's death. Against that background, he was sentenced to custody.

At the beginning of next week, the district court must decide whether the custody of Peter Madsen should continue.

http://nyheder.tv2.dk/krimi/2017-08-30-peter-madsen-afsloerede-tidligt-at-kim-wall-var-doed (in danish)

 

[ZaZara]

Any ideas what this accident might have been?

I have no idea what the inside of such a small submarine looks like. Are there places where one might get stuck between moving parts of the engine for instance?

 

[MONDA]

Any ideas what this accident might have been?

I have no idea what the inside of such a small submarine looks like. Are there places where one might get stuck between moving parts of the engine for instance?

The doors are still closed on the hearing, and nothing about the claimed accident has leaked. A person who worked on the submarine mentioned a few possibilities. One was a fall from the ladder leading to the conning tower. Apparently there is a door handle below which people have hurt themselves on before (although not seriously). He also mentioned the main drive shaft (but considered it unlikely), and the main power system (the submarine is electrically powered when submerged). He also said that crew safety hadn't been in focus when the submarine was constructed (even if the operation of the submarine in itself is safe). Think of it as the inside of a military tank. Everything is metal and some parts have sharp edges. A good place to hurt yourself, but not really a place you would expect a deadly accident.

A thing that hasn't been mentioned is battery explosion. This has happened on UC3 Nautilus before. It was a very powerful explosion, but caused only material damage as there wasn't anyone onboard.

Into the speculative: in the case of involuntary manslaughter the possibilities grow exponentially.

Peter Madsen's defence rests on the probability of this accident (whatever it be). It's likely to be made public at the next court hearing, as it's unlikely to be behind closed doors.

 

[SATA]

Any ideas what this accident might have been?

I have no idea what the inside of such a small submarine looks like. Are there places where one might get stuck between moving parts of the engine for instance?

The reason why the doors at the initial court hearing (where PM apparently already had told the police that Kim Wall had died on board the subm.) was, that there was information which might be hurtful to Kim Wall´s relatives to learn about.

That is all we know.

 

[MONDA]

The reason why the doors at the initial court hearing (where PM apparently already had told the police that Kim Wall had died on board the subm.) was, that there was information which might be hurtful to Kim Wall´s relatives to learn about.

That is all we know.

It's not unusual when someone confess a murder (or accidental death), but the body is missing. Imagine if that person is lying. Imagine if the supposed dead show up a few days later. The police like to have solid evidence before telling relatives their loved one has died.

 

[MONDA]

For anyone interested here is a video from inside UC3 Nautilus during a dive (24min).

https://youtu.be/GzhVjrrSuek

 

[ZaZara]

For anyone interested here is a video from inside UC3 Nautilus during a dive (24min).

https://youtu.be/GzhVjrrSuek

OMG I am becoming claustrophobic as I'm watching..... :gaah:

This is definitely not my cup of tea! and there is a window leaking .... :hills:

Now they don't know where they are and there is more leakage.... girls! this is NOT the moment to giggle.

HELLISH noise because of whatever... everybody quiet now, conversation is useless. And SILENCE. Girls start giggling almost immediately, apparently they are still alive. These men must have nerves of steel to stay so calm.

IMHO If you panic or something, a lot of freaky accidents are possible in this leaking metal drum.

 

[MONDA]

OMG I am becoming claustrophobic as I'm watching..... :gaah:

This is definitely not my cup of tea! and there is a window leaking .... :hills:

Now they don't know where they are and there is more leakage.... girls! this is NOT the moment to giggle.

HELLISH noise because of whatever... everybody quiet now, conversation is useless. And SILENCE. Girls start giggling almost immediately, apparently they are still alive. These men must have nerves of steel to stay so calm.

IMHO If you panic or something, a lot of freaky accidents are possible in this leaking metal drum.

Yes, don't forget it's a HOMEBUILD submarine - and it was not entirely finished after last major overhaul (not sure what was missing, but one of the engineers mentioned it - nothing major, but still). From the video you might also notice, that Nautilus doesn't dive like most people think a sub dives. Nautilus dives like an elevator (lift). You are still in the water and let Nautilus sink to the desired depth, only then do you start the engine and move forward - reverse the procedure when you want to surface. Certainly not for the fainthearted. My friend used to sail submarines for the Danish navy. He said NO ONE got into a sub without a psychological clearance.

 

[SATA]

Interesting footage of the submarine. It seems both sturdy and vulnerable at the same time. I don´t think it would have bothered me to try a dive in it, because it has been around for years and PM knows what he is doing with it.

He sank it on purpose - his sometimes home, his life, his dream come true, his home built submarine. Think about it!

 

[Logical_Inference]

News today:

The police have investigated Peter Madsen's old submarine

The police have dived down to investigate the founder Peter Madsen's old submarine, Freya, who he buried at sea in 2008. At the same time, the police chart his journey - underwater.

The Copenhagen police are working to map the detained rocket builder Peter Madsen's activity underwater. Last week, the police sent divers to investigate the submarine Freya, which was Peter Madsen's first submarine. This is what Jens Møller Jensen says, there is chief in Copenhagen Police.

The police are still looking for the remains of Kim Wall, and at the same time they try to map Peter Madsen's behavior, including his behavior under the ocean's surface. A week ago, divers were sent down to investigate Peter Madsen's first submarine, Freya, who was sunk at Flakfortet in Øresund in 2008.

Peter Madsen built the submarine from scratch and gave it the name of the Nordic fertility goddess. In 2002, the 7.5 meter long and one meter wide submarine made its first dive and made Peter Madsen Denmark's first amateur submarine captain.

The Freya project ended in a legal wreck with a Jutland businessman who bought the submarine, and in 2008 it was rusting up. Therefore, Peter Madsen decided to give it a funeral at sea. The funeral is described in the book Raket-Madsen.
Peter Madsen used Nautilus to drag Freya to a position near Flakfortet, which was one of Peter Madsen's favorite places to dive with Freya. Plastic flower bell was hung on Freya's periscope. Peter Madsen and a friend crawled aboard the submarine and opened its hull valves and let the lantern open to the clamp. Then they crawled back on Nautilus and saw Freya sink to the bottom.

In the book, he talks about Freya in the highest regard, as it was a dead woman:
"She is buried today in a quiet and beautiful burial place. The light comes and goes with the days; Winter follows summer, and Freya disappears quite slowly. She returns to the rock she was burned out of. For such is everything. Everything has a cycle - a birth, a life and a death. All three stages of life can be beautiful - if we want it, "he says in the book, written by Thomas Djursing.

Chief of Police Jens Møller-Jensen tells BT that the submarine Freya has been investigated in the investigation directed at Peter Madsen.
"We had divers down last week to investigate the wreck. There was a hatch that was open, and there are also free-time divers who have been down there from time to time, "says Jens Møller-Jensen.

Did you find anything suspicious?
"Then we would have chosen to raise the submarine."

The police, on the other hand, have chosen to raise the submarine Nautilus, which is considered a crime scene. Yesterday it was screened by scanners to find hidden cavities. However, nothing was found on the submarine, but the investigation into the submarine cabinet continued. The police have received more than 700 inquiries and are still calling for witnesses who have been out and sail in submarine with Peter Madsen.

»We would like to talk to people who have been on the submarine and have had experiences of one or the other kind. We want to know which route he usually sails, what special goals he sees and if he dives down special places. Are there any special wrecks or anything he usually shows. What happens when you are out and sailing in this submarine, we would like to know, "says Jens Møller Jensen.

What the witnesses have told, he does not want to elaborate. Peter Madsen has been detained until September 5th.

https://www.bt.dk/krimi/politiet-har-undersoegt-peter-madsens-gamle-ubaad (in danish)

 

[MONDA]

Interesting footage of the submarine. It seems both sturdy and vulnerable at the same time. I don´t think it would have bothered me to try a dive in it, because it has been around for years and PM knows what he is doing with it.

He sank it on purpose - his sometimes home, his life, his dream come true, his home built submarine. Think about it!

The story about UC3 Nautilus tells a lot about Peter Madsen. While he was building his first and second submarine "geeks" (in the nicest possibly sense) began gathering around him. By the time the UC3 Nautilus project began (2005) it was no longer a one person thing. There is little doubt Peter Madsen was the main drive and brain behind, but he didn't build it alone. Some time later, Peter Madsen's first rocket group (Copenhagen Suborbitals) was founded, and the submarine was launched (2008) as part of this organisation. There was no registered owner and the sub was operated simply as an experimental recreational craft. In 2014, Peter Madsen fell out with Copenhagen Suborbitals and was excluded from the organisation. Nobody was in doubt about Peter Madsen's stake in UC3 Nautilus, so a separate organisation called the Submarine Group was founded to operate and maintain UC3 Nautilus (which at this time wasn't operational). Peter Madsen became an honorary (non-paying) member with unlimited access to UC3 Nautilus. The following year, Peter Madsen had a very public following out with the Submarine Group over ownership (the submarine Group wanted to be registered owners - ostensibly for insurance purpose). There was also an issue about the submarine being stored on Copenhagen Suborbital's property from which Peter Madsen was banned - meaning he had no access to UC3 Nautilus. Despite having, on numerous occasions, stated that UC3 Nautilus was, first Copenhagen Suborbital's, then the Submarine Group's, Peter Madsen now claimed sole ownership, and threatened to sue. Eventually, the Submarine Group decided to hand over UC3 Nautilus to avoid further griveances, but not before Peter Madsen sent them a strange and somewhat disturbing SMS:

"There is a curse over Nautilus. The curse is me. There will not be quiet around Nautilus as long as I exist. You can not lift that curse legally. It wouldn't matter if you win or lose in court, the uncertainty will still be there. Let her be. Don't take her just because you can. It's not good for you. You will never have a good feeling in the submarine. I don't know what you will decide. But be smart. Do not throw more love in that boat. For your sake, you deserve better."

Peter Madsen and his new company RML (Raketmadsens Rumlaboratorium - Rocket-Madsen's Space Laboratorium) completed the overhaul, or at least repaired UC3 Nautilus enough to be seaworthy, and re-launched the submarine in May 2017. There is still no owner data in the national ships registry, but the submarine is owned by two danish businessmen and on permanent loan to RML. Madsen does not own RML, but is simply a non-paid CEO. In Peter Madsen's mind UC3 Nautilus is entirely his. It's his baby (his own words).

Anyway two stories collide here. The police claim Peter Madsen deliberately sunk UC3 Nautilus, while Peter Madsen says it was an accident. Obviously the police claim fits better with the murder/dismemberment charge, and the accident claim (kinda) fits the deadly accident story. There can be little doubt Peter Madsens' story is extremely weak. UC3 Nautilus dives by opening two valves and flooding the dive tanks, and resurface by filling those tanks with compressed air to force out the water. However, to flood them you also need to open two air vent valves (otherwise air will prevent water from filling the tanks). All four valves are mechanically operated from the control room. UC3 Nautilus will not dive/sink with only one dive tank flooded. That means FOUR separate mechanical valves should malfunction simultaneously for UC3 Nautilus to sink accidentally. This is highly improbable.

Edit: the accidental sinking was what Peter Madsen told the press before he was arrested. We don't know what he later told the police.

 

[SATA]

"There is a curse over Nautilus. The curse is me. There will not be quiet around Nautilus as long as I exist. You can not lift that curse legally. It wouldn't matter if you win or lose in court, the uncertainty will still be there. Let her be. Don't take her just because you can. It's not good for you. You will never have a good feeling in the submarine. I don't know what you will decide. But be smart. Do not throw more love in that boat. For your sake, you deserve better."


It sounds like a threat.

 

[MONDA]

"There is a curse over Nautilus. The curse is me. There will not be quiet around Nautilus as long as I exist. You can not lift that curse legally. It wouldn't matter if you win or lose in court, the uncertainty will still be there. Let her be. Don't take her just because you can. It's not good for you. You will never have a good feeling in the submarine. I don't know what you will decide. But be smart. Do not throw more love in that boat. For your sake, you deserve better."


It sounds like a threat.

In some ways it was, but not a threat of physical violence. The threat was that Peter Madsen wouldn't stop fighting for ownership. They could keep insisting that UC3 Nautilus belonged to them, but deep inside they would know it was Peter's boat - and that would prevent them from ever really enjoying it.

Juridically, they didn't have a great position without any kind of contract. Peter Madsen was quite obviously the builder (that could be tracked down in the media), and he had, unbeknownst to them, a few weeks previously registered UC3 Nautilus in the national ship registry as constructed by Peter Madsen (although not owned). If Peter Madsen is registered as the official builder the group would need proof of sale, or transfer of ownership, to claim it.

 

[Logical_Inference]

More news today:

http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/peter-madsen-kraever-at-blive-loesladt/6801667 (in danish)

Translated in Google:
Peter Madsens claims to be released when his detention prison expires on Tuesday.
His lawyer Betina Hald Engmark states this to Ritzau.
"I can say so much that in no way will my client voluntarily extend his time limit, and it is his desire to explain in court," says lawyer Bethina Hald Engmark to Ritzau, continuing:
"When you're guilty, you're not allowed to extend voluntarily," says Betina Hald Engmark.

The murderous inventor has been detained for negligent manslaughter under particularly aggravating circumstances. The police aim at him for killing and for unseemly dealing with bodies. It is the police's view that Madsen has killed the Swedish journalist Kim Wall.

After the new information has appeared in the case and found by Kim Walls torso, the court has still not ruled whether there is suspicion enough to imprison him too.
However, the court will probably decide on the next hearing on Tuesday.
According to senior prosecutor Jakob Buch-Jepsen, the prosecution authority is still of the opinion that there is grounds for requiring Peter Madsen to be detained on grounds of "a reasonable suspicion of manslaughter," writes Ritzau.

The lawyer's message comes the day after Ritzau revealed that Peter Madsen told police investigators about Kim Wall's death early in the process.
According to the law, already on August 12, he explained that Kim Wall had died in an accident, and he had buried her at sea.
But the explanation first came to the public on August 22, when the police and the court decided to publish the statement of the killings.
It happened the same day as Kim Walls torso was found by a cyclist at southwest Amager.

 

[MONDA]

More news today:

http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/peter-madsen-kraever-at-blive-loesladt/6801667 (in danish)

Translated in Google:
Peter Madsens claims to be released when his detention prison expires on Tuesday.
His lawyer Betina Hald Engmark states this to Ritzau.
"I can say so much that in no way will my client voluntarily extend his time limit, and it is his desire to explain in court," says lawyer Bethina Hald Engmark to Ritzau, continuing:
"When you're guilty, you're not allowed to extend voluntarily," says Betina Hald Engmark.

The murderous inventor has been detained for negligent manslaughter under particularly aggravating circumstances. The police aim at him for killing and for unseemly dealing with bodies. It is the police's view that Madsen has killed the Swedish journalist Kim Wall.

After the new information has appeared in the case and found by Kim Walls torso, the court has still not ruled whether there is suspicion enough to imprison him too.
However, the court will probably decide on the next hearing on Tuesday.
According to senior prosecutor Jakob Buch-Jepsen, the prosecution authority is still of the opinion that there is grounds for requiring Peter Madsen to be detained on grounds of "a reasonable suspicion of manslaughter," writes Ritzau.

The lawyer's message comes the day after Ritzau revealed that Peter Madsen told police investigators about Kim Wall's death early in the process.
According to the law, already on August 12, he explained that Kim Wall had died in an accident, and he had buried her at sea.
But the explanation first came to the public on August 22, when the police and the court decided to publish the statement of the killings.
It happened the same day as Kim Walls torso was found by a cyclist at southwest Amager.

Standard legal proceedings (mumbo jumbo). Both of them know very well, that Peter Madsen will get his pretrial detention extended.

 

[MONDA]

The police has just said they now have a complete radar track of UC3 Nautilus' route from the day Kim Wall died. The submarine can't sail under water for any significant distance (basically no distance at all), so maritime authorities have been able to filter UC3 Nautilus' radar signal from other traffic in the area. This will hopefully prove helpful in locating the remains of Kim Wall. Currently, the Danish police are using specially trained Swedish water corps sniffing dogs that can locate human remains under more than 25m of water. Forgetting the tragedy for a moment: think about a dog locating a corps on the seabed 20-30 meters below. That's quite astonishing.

 

[ZaZara]

The police has just said they now have a complete radar track of UC3 Nautilus' route from the day Kim Wall died. The submarine can't sail under water for any significant distance (basically no distance at all), so maritime authorities have been able to filter UC3 Nautilus' radar signal from other traffic in the area. This will hopefully prove helpful in locating the remains of Kim Wall. Currently, the Danish police are using specially trained Swedish water corps sniffing dogs that can locate human remains under more than 25m of water. Forgetting the tragedy for a moment: think about a dog locating a corps on the seabed 20-30 meters below. That's quite astonishing.

BBM

And they can do so even after years. So who knows what more they will find.... Sniffer dogs are amazing!