GUILTY Denmark - Kim Wall, 30, Copenhagen, 10 Aug 2017

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  • #1,081
Meanwhile here in the UK the Daily Mail has published an account which seems a fairly good summary - do you agree?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ted-make-snuff-film-obsessed-women-death.html
I had missed the forensic/medical evidence that it was very unlikely Kim Wall could have died in the way PM wants the court to believe.
'Yesterday, the medical examiner said it was an unlikely scenario as'the air seems not to have been able to leave the lungs, which is not the case with lack of oxygen or inhalation of gases.'


 
  • #1,082
Moll said:
Meanwhile here in the UK the Daily Mail has published an account which seems a fairly good summary - do you agree?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ted-make-snuff-film-obsessed-women-death.html
I had missed the forensic/medical evidence that it was very unlikely Kim Wall could have died in the way PM wants the court to believe.
'Yesterday, the medical examiner said it was an unlikely scenario as'the air seems not to have been able to leave the lungs, which is not the case with lack of oxygen or inhalation of gases.'
Click to expand...

Yes, but they missed to report on the actual snuff films found on his hard drive. They write, an animated film, which is not nearly as bad, in my opinion, since no woman DIED in the making of that, opposed to the snuff films.
 
  • #1,083
Moll said:
Meanwhile here in the UK the Daily Mail has published an account which seems a fairly good summary - do you agree?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ted-make-snuff-film-obsessed-women-death.html
I had missed the forensic/medical evidence that it was very unlikely Kim Wall could have died in the way PM wants the court to believe.
'Yesterday, the medical examiner said it was an unlikely scenario as'the air seems not to have been able to leave the lungs, which is not the case with lack of oxygen or inhalation of gases.'
Click to expand...

From the article:


Prosecutor Buch-Jepsen claims Madsen tied up and tortured Miss Wall before killing her, either by cutting her throat or strangling her.

The murder has been called premeditated because he had brought along tools he normally would not take with him on the submarine.

Coroner Christina Jacobsen testified Thursday about numerous lesions found on Wall's torso and head, with much of the questioning focused on the more-than two dozen stab wounds to her genital area.

She told the court that some of the cuts to the torso would have to have been inflicted before the moment of death.

The court heard that there was no conclusive evidence to prove the cause of death beyond doubt, but that coroners believe the 30-year-old had her airways 'cut off'.

Ms Jacobsen said this would be 'due to either strangulation, throat cutting or drowning,' she said.

The court also heard that Miss Wall had several lesions on her neck and jaw which would have been inflicted while she was still alive.

Ms Jacobsen told the court that the head may have been restrained, strapped down or that Miss Wall was 'gagged'.


BBM


Seems likely that he filmed it all.
 
  • #1,084
ZaZara said:
From the article:


Prosecutor Buch-Jepsen claims Madsen tied up and tortured Miss Wall before killing her, either by cutting her throat or strangling her.

The murder has been called premeditated because he had brought along tools he normally would not take with him on the submarine.

Coroner Christina Jacobsen testified Thursday about numerous lesions found on Wall's torso and head, with much of the questioning focused on the more-than two dozen stab wounds to her genital area.

She told the court that some of the cuts to the torso would have to have been inflicted before the moment of death.

The court heard that there was no conclusive evidence to prove the cause of death beyond doubt, but that coroners believe the 30-year-old had her airways 'cut off'.

Ms Jacobsen said this would be 'due to either strangulation, throat cutting or drowning,' she said.

The court also heard that Miss Wall had several lesions on her neck and jaw which would have been inflicted while she was still alive.

Ms Jacobsen told the court that the head may have been restrained, strapped down or that Miss Wall was 'gagged'.


BBM


Seems likely that he filmed it all.
Click to expand...

Has he been specifically questioned about why he took the saw on board ? That seems to be important.
Has he been asked why he didn't call for a help or broadcast a MayDay immediately it happened, if it was an accident as he says?

To me, it is sounding like he planned it, especially with the lesions and restraint marks. Was the medical expert asked if the marks indicate she was restrained before death?

What do posters think so far?
 
  • #1,085
  • #1,086
  • #1,087
This is my opinion of what happened based on what I've read from the translated proceedings (awesome job guys :loveyou: ):

- KW called PM to set up an interview and I think at first he agreed willingly and innocently. It's possible that he decided to do some research on her after that phone call and seeing her sparked some kind of dark desire inside of him, evidenced by the conversations he had with his ex-girlfriend and the internet searches he was conducting at the time.

- I don't believe that Kim's murder occurred out of some kind of chaotic violence or by surprise. Based on the testimony from the interns, I think he brought the saw, the pipes, the hose, and all the recording equipment on board knowing exactly what was going to transpire that night. I think KW got on that submarine not knowing she was the target of a closet sexual sadist (and self proclaimed psychopath).

- The punctures on her groin and the testimony of the ME stating that it was likely her injuries occurred right before, during, or right after she died indicate that this wasn't an innocent accident by carbon monoxide poisoning. Imo, even though the ME can't give an exact method of death, KW's poor body tells enough of a picture of what happened to her on the surface level. Based on the marks on her wrists and ankles and the implied notion that a snuff film took place (which I think definitely happened, and was the impetus for the murder), I think this poor woman, who was so full of energy and intelligence, was tortured, raped, strangulated, and then dismembered, all with the intent purpose to do so.

- I think it's very possible that KW was getting to the heart of his failure with his rocket project during their interview, something that perhaps he felt emasculated him as a man and as an intellectual. He may have acted in a rage that served as an accelerant to what was already planned. Either that, or he happened to have all those tools on his sub and flew into a fury over the threat of being exposed as a failure.

TLDR; He definitely did it imho. Sorry for the long post, just excited to contribute and disgusted by this evil degenerate.
 
  • #1,088
Greetings, Shelbel. I think by now everyone probably agrees with your final conclusion, even those who could not believe it before Kim Wall's body was found.

I would not agree that PM agreed 'innocently and willingly' to an interview. The evidence has been that he avoided an interview, possibly because, as SATA has stressed from early on and is now coming out clearly to everyone, his project was going badly. He then proposed this interview at short notice on the same day, when Kim and her boyfriend already had a farewell party planned.

The intern's evidence yesterday about the equipment - especially the saw, screwdriver and straps - appears to rule out any sudden rage being the cause of what happened. Nothing Kim Wall did brought about her death except agreeing to go on the sub, and only if they had decided that her boyfriend would go too could it then have been averted - something he must be constantly, painfully aware of. Of course she didn't know she was the target of a sexual sadist (not so closet to his associates, but her fears were to do with the submarine itself).

The prosecution are seeking to show this was a premeditated crime and that PM was working up, over the period when his projects were failing, to something with some woman - Kim Wall, tragically, came along just when he was at the point of acting on his fantasies. The evidence so far supports this. I don't think strangling as the cause of death has been supported by the evidence but there are other unpleasant possibilities such as throat-cutting, in line with his viewing habits.
 
  • #1,089
Moll said:
Yes, these things have been covered in the past three days, except for the Mayday query I think. Try the Sky link for catching up, and the Mail article.

Also the Copenhagen Post daily summaries, in English:
http://cphpost.dk/news/peter-madsen...tion-builds-case-for-premeditated-murder.html
Other days' links are at the bottom of the article.
Click to expand...

I haven't been able to find anything confirming whether the rope marks on wrist were pre or post mortem yet. Have you seen that anywhere ?

That would confirm she died after being restrained if they are sure about that. All I have seen are that her face lesions were pre mortem but admittedly I may have missed the details about the rope marks.

I don't think anyone except maybe PM's lawyer thinks it was an accident but the proof is another matter unfortunately. For Kim's family to see and hear all this terrible evidence could have been spared with a guilty plea.
 
  • #1,090
No, there has not been confirmation that the marks were made by restraint before death and the impression given by the pathologist was that they cannot be 100% certain - if you recall, under cross-examination she said she couldn't rule out that some injuries could have been made in accordance with Madsen's story, in an effort to remove the body from the sub. PM saw to this by making it so difficult for the body to be found in the sea. Can anyone find that passage again? I'm out all day after this.
But that's why the circumstantial evidence about the tools and straps is so important. It all adds up. Proof does not have to be absolute.
 
  • #1,091
I only started reading this thread a few pages before the trial started and I thought it might be useful for other latecomers like me if I put together a timeline.

Kim and PM met at approx. 19:00 on Thursday, 10 August and boarded the sub.
A man on a cruise ship took a photo of them in the sub’s conning tower at 20:30.
A merchant ship sighted the sub at midnight.
When she didn’t return, her boyfriend reported her missing at 02:30 on Friday, 11 August.
The first confirmed sighting of the sub was from a lighthouse at 10:30 on 11 August.
It sank at 11:00.

PM was taken to the police station at 11:30 that morning. At this stage he would have been just “helping them with their enquiries” and would have been asked to give a statement as to what he and Kim did from the time they met the previous day. He told the police that he dropped her off at 10:30pm at a restaurant, close to where they had met earlier on Thursday. The restaurant owner said the area was well covered by CCTV and he handed the video footage to police. As the round trip lasted some 3 1/2 hours, according to PM, the police only needed to view several hours of CCTV footage to establish that PM had lied and he had not returned her at all. At this point PM would have become a suspect. At 17:44 on Friday he was placed under arrest and charged with negligent manslaughter under particularly aggravating circumstances.

No doubt the police told him about the CCTV footage, so he probably felt compelled to change his story. On 12 August he admitted that she died in an accident on board the submarine when a 70kg hatch fell on her head and that he buried her at sea.

The first statement given to police by either a witness or potential suspect, is critically important as the person isn’t aware of any evidence that will emerge later during the investigation. If the first version later changes in a material aspect, red flags will go up and immediately alert the police. This change of versions will play a very important part in a subsequent trial.

Kim’s torso was found by a cyclist 11 days later on 21 August. Her head, legs and clothing were found in weighted-down bags by police divers on 6 October and the police said they had been "removed as a result of deliberate cutting”. The charge was then upgraded to murder. I might add that motive is not required in a murder case. It’s nice to have but not necessary.

On 30 October PM changed his story again and said she died of carbon monoxide poisoning. He also admitted to dismembering and mutilating her body, having previously denied this.
 
  • #1,092
Just been searching for this from when I was skimming on Thursday. Don't think it's been mentioned here:

10:45 Camilla Marie Nielsen
The prosecutor is now discussing the three scenarios that Peter Madsen has explained that the submarine accident may have occurred in the submarine accident.

10:46 Camilla Marie Nielsen
The Technological Institute has assessed the scenarios and they find that there has been a very high temperature in the submarine if they have taken place.
Therefore, the forensics have investigated whether Kim Wall has been exposed to heat before during or after the onset of death.

10:47 Camilla Marie Nielsen
The legal practitioners have not found any appreciable heat effects on the body.
- Would you normally find it, asks the prosecutor.
- Yes, you know that in that case there would be another for third-degree burns on the body. If there are hot gases, there would also be heat damage in the respiratory tract, says the forensic surgeon.

https://ekstrabladet.dk/112/live-praktikant-skyder-peter-madsens-forklaring-ned/7088383
Click to expand...

I'm not sure whether this refers to CO poisoning or the vacuum which made PM unable to open the hatch (or both/neither), but I think it could be important.
 
  • #1,093
Thanks JJ. Good synopsis of this horrendous murder. I have been following in UK papers and it is quite sickening.
 
  • #1,094
The ladder was no doubt vertical and he would have needed both hands to hold onto it, so he couldn’t carry or drag her up using his hands at all. Ropes would have been his best option, however trying to drag a dead weight up would have been difficult. If he dismembered her to lighten the load, why did he have to decapitate her? We’re not talking about the weight of a couple of bowling balls. Later he said he felt “sad” that the sub had sunk. What!!! When he got ashore he wasn’t distressed or emotional. However he was ”sad” about the submarine sinking.

He sounds like a psychopath to me:

Lack of remorse, shame or guilt - sees others as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims.

Shallow emotions - remaining unmoved and cold by what would move a normal person.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy

Need for stimulation – living on the edge, verbal outbursts, promiscuity.

Promiscuous Sexual Behaviour/Infidelity - sexual acting out of all sorts.
 
  • #1,095
JJ, you may have missed this from the fist day of the trial (8 March), but the professionals agree with you.

Mr Buch-Jepsen said a psychiatric report found Madsen was "a perverted polymorph, and highly sexually deviant".

He added: "He has narcissistic and psychopathic traits, and is manipulating, with a severe lack of empathy and remorse."

The same psychiatric examination described Madsen as "an intelligent man with no signs of psychosis" - meaning that he was responsible for his actions.

https://news.sky.com/story/inventor...-has-psychopathic-traits-court-hears-11281239
Click to expand...
 
  • #1,096
PM´s fantasy about his perfect death - according to the female witness yesterday:

Naked women and cats with him in some sort of tube. Someone turning the tube so it would slowly rotate, which would make it impossible to fall asleep.
He would eventually die from lack of sleep.

Is that weird, or what???
Any thoughts on this?
 
  • #1,097
SATA said:
PM´s fantasy about his perfect death - according to the female witness yesterday:

Naked women and cats with him in some sort of tube. Someone turning the tube so it would slowly rotate, which would make it impossible to fall asleep.
He would eventually die from lack of sleep.

Is that weird, or what???
Any thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

I think the tube is the sub. He loves cats and women so these are his 3 favourite things for him to die for.

Yes it's weird. Is there ever a perfect death? I don't think so.
 
  • #1,098
JudgeJudi said:
The ladder was no doubt vertical and he would have needed both hands to hold onto it, so he couldn’t carry or drag her up using his hands at all. Ropes would have been his best option, however trying to drag a dead weight up would have been difficult. If he dismembered her to lighten the load, why did he have to decapitate her? We’re not talking about the weight of a couple of bowling balls. Later he said he felt “sad” that the sub had sunk. What!!! When he got ashore he wasn’t distressed or emotional. However he was ”sad” about the submarine sinking.

He sounds like a psychopath to me:

Lack of remorse, shame or guilt - sees others as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims.

Shallow emotions - remaining unmoved and cold by what would move a normal person.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy

Need for stimulation – living on the edge, verbal outbursts, promiscuity.

Promiscuous Sexual Behaviour/Infidelity - sexual acting out of all sorts.
Click to expand...

If it was an accident, as he says, why dismember and dispose of the body anyway, rather than head for shore and call for help? He had his and Kim's mobile phones. I wonder if they have evidence of when those phones stopped working?
 
  • #1,099
Shiressleuth said:
I think the tube is the sub. He loves cats and women so these are his 3 favourite things for him to die for.

Yes it's weird. Is there ever a perfect death? I don't think so.
Click to expand...

And/or the rocket.
The rocket IS a tube, only with room for one though.

Everything in his life seems to center around tubes.
I think I said earlier in the thread: a phallus and a womb in one.
 
  • #1,100
I wonder if it was his wife who testified behind closed doors on Friday? Apparently PM wasn't in the courtroom during this witness's evidence, instead he was moved a separate room and watched the proceedings via a special screen.

One of Friday's witnesses cancelled.

This makes me think that they are afraid to give evidence because they might have been threatened. PM's snuff movie/dark web contacts perhaps?
 
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