Did JR tell us the Plan, #2 - RDI Only thread

[Frigga]

Not meaning to be presumptuous, but I think you may have been referring to my post about JR "telling" on himself. If not, my apologies for answering for dazeerae.

I've only been able to stomach a few chapters of DOI, and haven't even opened TOSOS, although I have a good friend that's read them both and shared lots of info with me.

I find it very telling that JR kept pictures of Beth between his shower & tub, visible from both. That's just sick. He spends more time in DOI mourning Beth than he does JB. He "forgave" JB's killer almost instantly, and said he only wanted to "know why". Huh? :waitasec: In the CBN interview he asked "What if we were the killers?" That's just really bizarre. I see how he was trying to pull it off, but still a tell in my book. In TOSOS he describes how he went to India (I think) on a mission trip to work with young girls in the sex trade. Ok, :facepalm: Then there's the "underwear" thing, over & over again.

There's about 1000 more. Let me give it some thought and I'll post more. I'll probably have to make a list there's too many to remember.

Thanks so much for answering Nom- very interesting. Now I really do have to read the books.

 

[questfortrue]

I must be looking too far into it. :doh:

KWYM, Venom. :crazy:

If one compares JR’s interviews with PR’s statements, it seems like Prosecutor MK nailed it when he said that JR’s responses seemed “scripted”; JR had a pretty good idea of what he was going to say. PR, if she was given a question that she wasn’t prepared to answer, became extra vague, had a lot of “I don’t remember” comments. So, imo, no question that JR was the organized planner in the family. The other thing I’ve noticed is that JR sometimes seems to “toy” with the investigators, e.g. about the intruder leaving “all these funny little clues,” like the chair. It may have seemed like it could be a good “clue” to attribute to an intruder, building the case for an intruder. But it may also have been used in the crime, and he wished to point elsewhere. Perhaps JB was seated on it during a molestation? That ability to point elsewhere was visible in some of his interview responses, especially when he doesn’t want to have some evidence or questions about behavior come too close. The statement about not knowing about JB’s bedwetting issues is one example. BR admitted that JB’s bedwetting was a problem within the family. Did JR know that toileting issues can be a sign of molestation and he wished to distance that line of questioning? Why say that he didn’t know about the sexual evidence in the autopsy? Surely JR’s $$lawyers would have gone over the autopsy report with him.
Also it’s hard to miss JR’s extreme need to build an image (for others to believe or for himself to believe or both, IDK) - God-fearing Christian, victim of a malicious media, victim of a crime by an intruder who targeted him in particular, (as FreeSafety36 points out) a man frequently in his underwear to demonstrate his vulnerability, sensitive about the need to rescue young women in India from a life of prostitution. MHO, his Image building tells how desperately he wants people to believe in his respectability and goodness. Just something about all of these “goodness protestations” which seems "off". It’s like someone once said, a wise person doesn’t have the need to convince you how wise he is. moo

 

[Tadpole12]

Is the chair in question, the red chair, as appears in the daily beast video?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/18/new-clues-in-jonbenet-ramsey-murder.html

The first closet door, doesn't appear to be a keyed entry,
and the second closet door is opened by a gloved hand, could be a keyed entry?

 

[Scandigirl]

Hi everyone,

Hope you don't mind me joining this interesting discussion? Just thought it might be helpful to mention... In terms of how accurate KK's document might be... ZBob was thinking earlier, that it all seems too detailed and studies to be made up- he wondered if KK had insider knowledge somehow, or knew someone close to the investigation?

This could be true. The only thing I know is that he claims to have been living in Boulder at the time of JB's murder. But, it's also easy to forget (myself included), that his document is a Best Fit Analysis, which I take to mean (correct me if I'm wrong), that he's suggesting the most likely possibilities of what happened, which would best fit, or be able to account for, as many of the known evidence and indications as possible?

So, he's not saying: this is definately what happened. He's saying that, to find a scenario that is most likely to accommodate as many of the known evidence and factors at play, this is the best fit scenario of what appears to be the most likely to have happened!

The confusing bit is that, on some issues, such as the incriminating photos of the ransom tablet found on the Ramsey's camera, he obviously has actual information of the existence of such issues, which are clearly facts, just supposition. So, he seems to be including a mixture of facts he somehow knows about the case, plus his Best Fit suppositions- confusing!

Sorry, I promise I'm not going to keep going on about KK's "theory"- just thought it could be helpful to explain that!

 

[madeleine]

JR seems to have forgotten that 2 people were already down there before his trip...when does he lie?when he talks about the lights being off and the ddor blocked (impossible,since officers and FW went down there earlier) OR when he says he went there between 7-9 (the truth is he went there before 911 was called and then yes,the lights were probably off and the door blocked by that chair)

1 LOU SMIT: And was there lighting down

2 there

3 or anything at that time?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't specifically, I don't

5 remember that it was on. The lights were probably

6 off, which would have been normal.

7 LOU SMIT: How would you have been able to

8 basement with the lights off, or was it --

9 JOHN RAMSEY: With the lights off at night

10 it would have been hazardous because there's a lot

11 of junk piled in here. This door was kind of

12 blocked with boxes and a little chair. And you

13 could move the chair and then walk right in. But

14 it would have been pitch black; it would have been

15 tough.

16 LOU SMIT: Did you say you had to move that

17 chair to get in?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

19 LOU SMIT: Any other areas you looked at?

20 You walked into that train room? Did you look in

21 any of the closets or in any other area?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember doing that.

23 I

24 think my purpose in going down there was to see,

25 to figure how they got in. But I don't remember

0157

1 looking anywhere else on that trip in the

2 basement.

 

[Scandigirl]

Sorry for so many typos in my above post- the perils of typing quickly on an iPad! Hope you can still understand the general gist of what I'm saying- his theory seems to be a mixture of Best Fit Analysis, plus little known facts, basically!

 

[madeleine]

no matter how you look at it (if you read their LE interviews as many times as I did) it's obvious they are LYING about 2 things....what they did between "finding" the note and calling 911 and JR's trip/trips to the basement.end of story.

 

[Nom de plume]

KWYM, Venom. :crazy:

If one compares JR’s interviews with PR’s statements, it seems like Prosecutor MK nailed it when he said that JR’s responses seemed “scripted”; JR had a pretty good idea of what he was going to say. PR, if she was given a question that she wasn’t prepared to answer, became extra vague, had a lot of “I don’t remember” comments. So, imo, no question that JR was the organized planner in the family. The other thing I’ve noticed is that JR sometimes seems to “toy” with the investigators, e.g. about the intruder leaving “all these funny little clues,” like the chair. It may have seemed like it could be a good “clue” to attribute to an intruder, building the case for an intruder. But it may also have been used in the crime, and he wished to point elsewhere. Perhaps JB was seated on it during a molestation? That ability to point elsewhere was visible in some of his interview responses, especially when he doesn’t want to have some evidence or questions about behavior come too close. The statement about not knowing about JB’s bedwetting issues is one example. BR admitted that JB’s bedwetting was a problem within the family. Did JR know that toileting issues can be a sign of molestation and he wished to distance that line of questioning? Why say that he didn’t know about the sexual evidence in the autopsy? Surely JR’s $$lawyers would have gone over the autopsy report with him.
Also it’s hard to miss JR’s extreme need to build an image (for others to believe or for himself to believe or both, IDK) - God-fearing Christian, victim of a malicious media, victim of a crime by an intruder who targeted him in particular, (as FreeSafety36 points out) a man frequently in his underwear to demonstrate his vulnerability, sensitive about the need to rescue young women in India from a life of prostitution. MHO, his Image building tells how desperately he wants people to believe in his respectability and goodness. Just something about all of these “goodness protestations” which seems "off". It’s like someone once said, a wise person doesn’t have the need to convince you how wise he is. moo

QFT, you bring up some very good points. ITA that JR was the organized planner in the family, which IMO speaks volumes in relation to this crime. I think he ruled that house with an iron fist. We've all heard the stories of PR trying to keep the kids quiet so they didn't disturb JR, and the fights between them. Another thing, PR was raised a southerner, and southern women of her time were anything but feminists. They took a back seat to their husbands, and thought nothing of it. She was a "Stand by your man" kind of woman if there ever was one! I certainly don't believe that she was innocent by any means, but even if she was, I still think she would have stuck by him anyway.

His "clever little clues" comments were an attempt to point the finger at someone. IMO, that person was FW. I think he knew FW left them. He does appear to toy with LE, but that fits his personality. JR thinks he's sooo much smarter than everyone else, especially LE. I'm not sure it ever occurred to him that they wouldn't get away with this.

JR's refusal to admit that JB was sexually assaulted (followed by PR's) is another big "tell" IMO. First he says they believe the IDI was a pedophile, then out of the other side of his mouth, she wasn't sexually assaulted. Huh? What father wouldn't be ready to kill any man that touched his daughter in that manner, much less killed her afterwards? Perhaps the kind that did it himself?

And last, but certainly not least, is JR's never ending need to be the "good guy". Methinks he doth protest too much. Like you said, if he's that "good" he doesn't need to tell anyone. Also there's his need to be the victim in all this. Geez...you'd think he was the one that was murdered, not his 6 yr old daughter. How anyone can look at this man and not see "NARCISSIST" written all over him is beyond me.

 

[madeleine]

it's so damn frustrating...so many cases are solved by simply checking people's phone records...:banghead:
why was this and still is a problem:banghead:
also,if I were the BPD I would take another look at 2 key players in this case,Bynum and Beuf.these two know something.

 

[Nom de plume]

JR seems to have forgotten that 2 people were already down there before his trip...when does he lie?when he talks about the lights being off and the ddor blocked (impossible,since officers and FW went down there earlier) OR when he says he went there between 7-9 (the truth is he went there before 911 was called and then yes,the lights were probably off and the door blocked by that chair)

1 LOU SMIT: And was there lighting down

2 there

3 or anything at that time?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't specifically, I don't

5 remember that it was on. The lights were probably

6 off, which would have been normal.

7 LOU SMIT: How would you have been able to

8 basement with the lights off, or was it --

9 JOHN RAMSEY: With the lights off at night

10 it would have been hazardous because there's a lot

11 of junk piled in here. This door was kind of

12 blocked with boxes and a little chair. And you

13 could move the chair and then walk right in. But

14 it would have been pitch black; it would have been

15 tough.

16 LOU SMIT: Did you say you had to move that

17 chair to get in?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

19 LOU SMIT: Any other areas you looked at?

20 You walked into that train room? Did you look in

21 any of the closets or in any other area?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember doing that.

23 I
24 thinkmy purpose in going down there was to see,

25 to figure how they got in. But I don't remember

0157

1 looking anywhere else on that trip in the

2 basement.

BBM & CBM #1 "I think"?? You don't know? Why not? Wasn't this the most horrible day of your life, and you don't remember? Sure....

BBM & CBM #2 Another slip?

He was absolutely down there before the 911 call! PR even slipped and said something about him screaming as he was coming up from the basement before she called.

 

[madeleine]

the saddest part is actually that the Ramsey's "told" us so many incriminating things in their interviews but no one had the guts to push it,except Kane but it was too late...

 

[madeleine]

I was wondering...re the missing phone records...maybe the BPD wasn't intimidated by the R's army of lawyers...maybe they were afraid of the people who could have been accomplices in the cover-up...who built the bridge between the Ramsey team and the DA office?and most important ,why?they key to solving this is finding out who the Ramseys talked to prior to dialing 911.

:twocents:

 

[madeleine]

His "clever little clues" comments were an attempt to point the finger at someone. IMO, that person was FW. I think he knew FW left them. He does appear to toy with LE, but that fits his personality. JR thinks he's sooo much smarter than everyone else, especially LE. I'm not sure it ever occurred to him that they wouldn't get away with this.

IMO the "CLEVER,little clues" stuff is actually an ego thing , JR being PROUD of HIMSELF.

 

[Scandigirl]

QFT, you bring up some very good points. ITA that JR was the organized planner in the family, which IMO speaks volumes in relation to this crime. I think he ruled that house with an iron fist. We've all heard the stories of PR trying to keep the kids quiet so they didn't disturb JR, and the fights between them. Another thing, PR was raised a southerner, and southern women of her time were anything but feminists. They took a back seat to their husbands, and thought nothing of it. She was a "Stand by your man" kind of woman if there ever was one! I certainly don't believe that she was innocent by any means, but even if she was, I still think she would have stuck by him anyway.

His "clever little clues" comments were an attempt to point the finger at someone. IMO, that person was FW. I think he knew FW left them. He does appear to toy with LE, but that fits his personality. JR thinks he's sooo much smarter than everyone else, especially LE. I'm not sure it ever occurred to him that they wouldn't get away with this.

JR's refusal to admit that JB was sexually assaulted (followed by PR's) is another big "tell" IMO. First he says they believe the IDI was a pedophile, then out of the other side of his mouth, she wasn't sexually assaulted. Huh? What father wouldn't be ready to kill any man that touched his daughter in that manner, much less killed her afterwards? Perhaps the kind that did it himself?

And last, but certainly not least, is JR's never ending need to be the "good guy". Methinks he doth protest too much. Like you said, if he's that "good" he doesn't need to tell anyone. Also there's his need to be the victim in all this. Geez...you'd think he was the one that was murdered, not his 6 yr old daughter. How anyone can look at this man and not see "NARCISSIST" written all over him is beyond me.

Just to say, I couldn't agree more!

My gut instinct has always been that it was John who most likely molested JonBenet, with Patsy being the type to stick by her man at any cost, even at the expense of her daughter's wellbeing. On top of that, John was the main bread winner, and she and her entire family basked in the reflected glory of his wealth and power.

For me, the big question I'm not sure about is: if John was JB's molester, did he also kill her? Or, did Patsy eventually snap and do it herself, with John standing by her because she knew too much about him? Or, to me less likely, but still can't ruled out, did Burke kill his sister, either because he was molesting her as well, or as a screwed up reaction to knowing she was being abused?

Personally, I just don't know, but I'm leaning towards John being responsible for everything. It's so fascinating to follow all of you thoughts and ideas!

 

[Nom de plume]

it's so damn frustrating...so many cases are solved by simply checking people's phone records...:banghead:
why was this and still is a problem:banghead:
also,if I were the BPD I would take another look at 2 key players in this case,Bynum and Beuf.these two know something.

ITA madeleine!! Absolutely! No WAY did Dr. B NOT know she was being molested. He might as well have just admitted it when he said he'd burn the records rather than release them. Privacy rules end at death IINM.

MB was privy to some inside info too, no doubt. I highly suspect he might have been the "helper" that backed out on them. He probably had second thoughts about being disbarred and going to prison.

 

[Nom de plume]

IMO the "CLEVER,little clues" stuff is actually an ego thing , JR being PROUD of HIMSELF.

You think he left the clues himself? Why would he do that?

 

[madeleine]

You think he left the clues himself? Why would he do that?

not intentionally....but after realizing no one caught him he ended up being very proud of his "perfect staging"

 

[Anyhoo]

Thanks. I read some of KK's theory, was just speculating off of it. I'm not "sold" on his theory, but he does bring up a few interesting points. It is odd that JR put the chair in the doorway, why would he want it known that the chair was there? The 2 others who were in the basement before him didn't see it. And wouldn't FW have had to move it out of the way to get into the room?

I wonder about the chair and why JR brought it up. After reading everything I know about this case, I think JR is a liar and a bad person. I would not believe ANYTHING he said. If French and FW did not mention the chair, then the chair probably was not there, which means that JR had some ulterior motive for saying that. What that would be is anyone's guess. But again, JR is not one to be trusted IMO.

 

[madeleine]

They left us a piece of evidence. They were

12 clever enough not to leave much else, apparently.

13 I think it's say somebody that's very sick, thinks

14 they're very clever, is playing games. You know,

15 we heard about the two Bible verses, Psalms, that

16 were circled in some book. I don't know, some

17 book or not. I was not told that directly. We

18 heard it through the backdoor.

19 LOU SMIT: You didn't circle Bible passages?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). They were leaving

21 little clues to analyze this.



9 JOHN RAMSEY: But I don't think she would

10 have drawn a heart on her hand. The trouble with

11 that piece of information, which is very bizarre.

12 Something is amiss there.

13 LOU SMIT: Okay. So we can investigate

14 that

15 there.

16 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)

17 JOHN RAMSEY: The person who did this

18 obviously (INAUDIBLE) clues to tantalize us. And

19 that's just another one (INAUDIBLE).




13 LOU SMIT: And he would have had to move

14 it back, if he was in there trying to get out, is

15 that correct?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

17 LOU SMIT: So that's not very logical as

18 far as --

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it is. I mean if this

20 person is that bizarrely clever to have not left

21 any good evidence, but left all these little funny

22 little clues around, they certain are clever

23 enough to pull the chair back when they left.



1 JOHN RAMSEY: I feel like we've exhausted

2 almost everything that we can do. I have racked my

3 brain everyday as to who could have possibly have

4 done this. What does the note mean, what does SBTC

5 mean. All these little clues that were left for

6 us.

7 I think there is a -- I don't want to comment on

8 that. I don't know how that is, because I don't

9 know.



23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well that's evidence that I

24 didn't write it; Patsy didn't write it. The

25 handwriting experts have said Patsy or I didn't

0361

1 write it. Our guys have said on a scale of one to

2 five, Patsy is 4.5 five against not writing it.

3 I think that whoever did this is very, very insane

4 and clever. Because it looks different as well as

5 some other stuff we've seen. So I think they were

6 teasing us.

7 MIKE KANE: By leaving the (INAUDIBLE)?

8 JOHN RAMSEY: Just like these all these

9 other little clues you see being left around?

10 MIKE KANE: Teasing you or teasing the police?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Teasing all of us.

12 MIKE KANE: What I'm thinking about teasing,

13 do you think that there's anything in there that's

14 trying purposely (INAUDIBLE) say a diversion to

15 fool the police or to fool you?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it certainly bought

17 some time. I think everybody assumed JonBenet was

18 not in the house. Maybe it was an attempt to get

19 money. I don't know. I could have been attempt to

20 get money. I don't know. I could have been a

21 legitimate attempt to get money. But maybe because

22 of the police activity or whatever, they didn't

23 follow through at that end. I don't know.




24 JOHN RAMSEY: No. The thought

25 crossed my mind, but I think -- no, I don't

0470

1 think that's the -- I didn't give him credit

2 for being that clever.

3 MIKE KANE: Why not?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: Because I think

5 they have left too many clues. They left a

6 ransom note. They left this newspaper with, you

7 know, this bizarre thing you showed me today.

8 MIKE KANE: But some of these clues

9 now the public has taken and made judgments.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't --

11 MIKE KANE: No, but I mean in the

12 context of someone trying to frame you?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it's too

14 much of a stretch. I mean what -- if I were

15 going to do that, I wouldn't have handwritten

16 the note. I would have typed it out or you

17 know, I mean, if they are really that clever to

18 have done something like this, to not only hurt

19 JonBenet, hurt us but to frame us as the

20 murderers, I think if you give them credit for

21 being that clever, they would have done some

22 other things that would have supported that kind

23 of theory more.

24 MIKE KANE: What kind of things

25 come to mind?

0471

1 JOHN RAMSEY: Like I think I

2 wouldn't have handwritten the note. I would

3 have done it on a word processor or on a --

4 maybe I wouldn't have left a note at all.

 

[Scandigirl]

IMO the "CLEVER,little clues" stuff is actually an ego thing , JR being PROUD of HIMSELF.

Good point! I've always been unsure about who could have left them, thinking it could either have been John himself, or possible Fleet White, or even Patsy, to try to point the police towards John, without actually telling them. But, it does make sense to be John!

There are many criminals who have been so arrogant and smug that they can't resist taunting the police, or having an urge to let people know how clever they think they are! It could be almost like a game to John. He always smiles so smugly and inappropriately on TV, as if he's secretly pleased with himself!

IMO, as time has gone on, and it's obvious he won't be prosecuted, he's got more cocky about revealing things, too. I can't remember which poster recently said that in an interview, John said words to the effect of: if we had killed her, which was a jaw dropper!