Discussion between the verdict and sentencing

[Sherbert]

Eg If OP wanted to unlawfully kill an intruder, and it turned out to be Reeva he killed, this doesn't stop it being murder dolus directus.

Thank Pandax! I find your reply very helpful, as I hadn't appreciated this - in fact, I was labouring under the complete misapprehension that, in order to establish dolus directus, the State had to prove that OP intended to kill Reeva.

 

[Interested Bystander]

There were jeans below on the ground out the window?? I somehow missed this tidbit altogether!!!! If nobody raised it, how do we know about it - was there a picture or something????

Here we are. Juror13 blog again. What would we do without this excellent resource.

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/70.png

The photo is not very clear but they are on the left. Cue the dog - the jeans are alongside. Quite a distance from the bathroom window which is to the top right of the photo.

Here is a close-up.

 

[aa9511]

I confess I'm coming in on the middle of your discussion, but hope nonetheless that I'm understanding your question.

BBM - Imo, these items were more central to the case... they were things which OP had testified about (and thus lied about) which Nel could use to trip him up. I thought the evidence of the jeans being on top of the duvet with a pattern of blood spatter on both, was going to really help the State's case...

I'm starting to think that well, maybe the whole problem is that - in the areas of criminal investigations, forensics, detective-work, and also in the criminal justice system like attorneys and judges - they are just not as competent as what we are used to from the parallel entities in the US (mostly).

It seems as though the detectives and the prosecutors narrowed the crime scene down to just the toilet room, when it should have been the whole apartment. I don't see what was the harm in asking OP questions about the jeans, the blood splatter, etc.? Shouldn't Nels have made a bigger deal of these things? If they had taken the context of the entire apartment as the crime scene, maybe they would have gotten a clearer picture of what happened that night.

 

[Cherwell]

I think they were flung out the bathroom window, as they were lying opened out, with a belt still on them. If they had fallen, they would have fallen downwards below the bathroom window,into a heap, instead they were found just below the toilet window. Masipa ignored this photo, or gave it little meaning.

The mere fact that there's a dog in the photo with the jeans tells me that I can't assume that they are lying where they fell. If the dogs were running around outside, they could have disturbed them. I just don't think the jeans could prove anything either way.

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

Here we are. Juror13 blog again. What would we do without this excellent resource.

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/70.png

The photo is not very clear but they are on the left. Cue the dog - the jeans are alongside. Quite a distance from the bathroom window which is to the top right of the photo.

Here is a close-up.

View attachment 59254

Thank you so much, Interested Bystander!

Those jeans still have a belt on, which means it couldn't have been from Reeva doing laundry!

 

[Feynman]

The heart of reason in this case is that when you accept that the evidence supports the bat strikes after the gun shots the events CANNOT have happened as the state put forward. Everything else flows from that.

Please explain how only CH flows from this to the exclusion of DE.

 

[Jake18]

From Masipa's judgement:
"This court also accepts that a person with an anxiety disorder as described by Dr Vorster, would get anxious very easily, especially when he is faced with danger."

I thought the report after the 30 day observation at Weskoppies stated that he DID NOT have GAD at the time of the murder, yet she ignores this??

I was hoping for carefully weighted, logical explanations and this is the opposite. Dr Voster had 2 sessions with Oscar, the 3 psychiatrists and psychologists had 30 days, yet the Dr Voster findings are the ones which are referenced?

The ammunition verdict is nonsensical.

There is either corruption or incompetence at play.

 

[Figuring]

Here's a photo of Masipa in her younger professional days:

https://www.facebook.com/5280344306...8034430661075/528045423993309/?type=1&theater

Thanks for this. What a weird FB page, that is (and, oddly, only created yesterday?!)! There's a super disrespectful post a little further down (IMO) about Reeva's mom writing a book, the post called "Money Money Money." Funny--no, actually SAD--how in order to support the judge, they need to denigrate Reeva's mom.

It's hard for me to imagine that anyone is callous enough to accuse the victim's mother (who is also a victim) of being motivated by greed and not, say, justice, or the public good. If I was the mother of a daughter who was murdered by a high-profile, rich, and well-connected man, whom was given leniency by the court every step of the way, and will likely be free again soon to traumatize other women, I would holler until the end of time about it, whether I made money or not.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Thanks for this. What a weird FB page, that is (and, oddly, only created yesterday?!)! There's a super disrespectful post a little further down (IMO) about Reeva's mom writing a book, the post called "Money Money Money." Funny--no, actually SAD--how in order to support the judge, they need to denigrate Reeva's mom.

It's hard for me to imagine that anyone is callous enough to accuse the victim's mother (who is also a victim) of being motivated by greed and not, say, justice, or the public good. If I was the mother of a daughter who was murdered by a high-profile, rich, and well-connected man, whom was given leniency by the court every step of the way, and will likely be free again soon to traumatize other women, I would holler until the end of time about it, whether I made money or not.

hear, hear!!

 

[ColonelMustard]

I'm going to grossly exaggerate, here for a moment, to make a point.

Personally, I don't care if Masipa sentences him to 75 years , I want this thing appealed.

This about the law and justice.

My anger at her outrageous, ridiculous, feeble, indefensible verdict will propel me forward, regardless.

 

[Madeleine74]

The timeline is a red herring. And who cares. He shot FOUR hollow point bullets into a closed door covering basically a tiny closet-size loo. That's fully knowing you will hit and may well kill the person inside that little loo and continuing to shoot anyway. 1 shot could be considered an "oops." 4 shots? That's purposeful. And that's really all Masipa needed to use to realize this was greater than culpable homicide.

 

[ColonelMustard]

My question is why?

 

[Madeleine74]

Why what? Why did he shoot?

I submit he was upset or angry or maybe agitated. I don't think he wanted to kill someone but I think he shot those 4 bullets knowing he could and that makes this a murder 2 (eventualis) case to me.

 

[OZe]

I've been attempting to reconcile the evidence between 01:48:48 and 03:17:20. It’s no easy task and in some respects I don’t blame the judge for saying “it doesn’t help”. I now have a chart with all the evidence of 10 witnesses plus OP. I’ll put it up when finished but it may be a few days as I’ve got other commitments coming up.

To give just one example of the problem (and there are a few other examples):

If we try and marry up the screams of “help, help, help” we have 5 witnesses who testify to hearing it.

[RSBM and BBM]


Hi Mr. Fossil (and other members of your great community)!

I've been following the trial and reading the forum closely so it was inevitable I'd end up posting.

Just a quick thought: Is it possible that Oscar shouted "help, help, help" twice? Once, before the gunshots, when 'mocking' Reeva (as one of the witnesses suggested might have happened) and again, after the gunshots, when he ran onto the balcony.

Thank you and all your fellow Sleuthers for your fascinating insights.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Hi and :welcome: OZe

It is possible he did shout it twice, once being in a mocking tone towards Reeva.

I've always wondered why he shouted it at all, it's something someone would do if they were actually under attack in a home invasion.

This is why he's a very cunning little fox imo.

 

[vansleuths]

Here's a link to a grassroots global petition to appeal the verdict:

http://www.change.org/p/national-pr...r-reeva-steenkamp-murdered-by-oscar-pistorius

I signed this change.org petition.

Would someone mind helping me understand how these work. The petition currently has 1,411 signatures and needs 89 more to reach its target.

1. What happens if/when it reaches its target?
2. How is the prosecution advised that this petition reached 1,500 signatures to appeal the verdict or is it up to us to just send an email to the NPA with the results of this petition and hope that they read and act upon it?

Thank you

 

[Madeleine74]

It will likely have no effect. The S.A. judicial system is not going to be nudged by a group of unhappy people, mostly in North America. It will require Nels to go through the proper channels to start an appeal. He may or he may not. And even if he does, there is no guarantee what will happen.

 

[wb180]

I mean all this talk of timeline is silly and part of the smoke and mirrors. Sure it's great to have a timeline if we have enough evidence but the most important thing is to satisfy the conditions of premeditated murder or murder or ch which I feel Nel did. Sure, we would also love to know the underlying reason for OP shooting Reeva and why they were arguing but does it matter for satisfaction of the charges? No.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I signed this change.org petition.

Would someone mind helping me understand how these work. The petition currently has 1,411 signatures and needs 89 more to reach its target.

1. What happens if/when it reaches its target?
2. How is the prosecution advised that this petition reached 1,500 signatures to appeal the verdict or is it up to us to just send an email to the NPA with the results of this petition and hope that they read and act upon it?

Thank you

It will be sent to the NPA including the 1500 signatures. I've signed a few petitions before that have brought about changes, but we'll see, it up to the South Africans really. jmo

 

[PrimeSuspect]

It will likely have no effect. The S.A. judicial system is not going to be nudged by a group of unhappy people, mostly in North America. It will require Nels to go through the proper channels to start an appeal. He may or he may not. And even if he does, there is no guarantee what will happen.

I agree Madeleine, South Africans have to voice their opinions, it's really none of our business, as you say we're just unhappy about the verdict.

The world's denouncement of apartheid in S.A did bring about changes but of course, this case is not comparable, yet the colour of one's skin still seems to be a talking point.


Imo, Gerrie Nel and his team had their hands tied from the beginning, he virtually had to hope for the best and leave it in Masipa's hands.

The case of silent Frank, the house servant, who lived off from the kitchen. Aimee and Carise walking around the crime scene removing items, the phone that mysteriously went missing for 11 days, the pics of the crime scene by the police being invalidated, a watch stolen reportedly by a policeman, yet they were searched before leaving the scene......etc. etc.