Discussion Thread #60 - 14.9.12 ~ the appeal~

[Lux et Veritas]

WEIRD not seeing Oscar and his green bucket, none of the familiar faces in the gallery.

 

[lisasalinger]

Maybe it is just me, but Nel seems a bit nervous or awkward in his communication with My Lady. Like he KNOWS she is put off or something.

His delivery today has been disappointing. For as intelligent as he is, he sometimes struggles with articulation. He seems a bit overwhelmed with the details that he needs to present.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Well from a mans point of view............no !:noooo::gasp:

Bro, you may want to try it sometime yourself (or your best impression of it), just to add more spice to your love life. Be sure to wear a black robe and throw in some legal terms, too. :heartluv:

 

[jay-jay]

I'll bet you that she has no idea what he's talking about. Maybe vaguely but that's all.

.. yip .. I kinda wonder if Nel shouldn't be keeping it a bit shorter and snappier for her, I get the impression she's completely lost after a few minutes of listening.

 

[katydid23]

It's like when you know someone wants to fire you or break up with you, but you still try and explain what happened, although you can tell they are over it and done already...very awkward... yet you still try and make your valid points, although meekly and quickly...

 

[emirates1957]

Nel sounds nervous.

 

[G.bng]

Masipa probably thinks he intended to miss...

For a valid PPD the way Johan Engelbrecht SC explains it in an article in The Citizen, one would neither need to intend to kill nor intend to not kill, or as you note, intend to miss, since according to his explanation, and Professor Grant explains more or less the same in several of his explanatory posts on OP's defences and in Criminal law in 4D:

“Private putative self-defence excludes intention because the person does not have the intention to kill,” he said.

I assume meaning that the intention is that of defending oneself which may mean by killing but that is not the primary intention. The S v Harry Joshua judgement the court stated almost the same as Masipa in this respect:

His erroneous belief that his life was in danger excludes dolus.

and once excluded dolus it follows that murder of any type, directus, eventualis, etc. is also excluded. Therefore, since Masipa made the factual finding that OP genuinely believed there was an intruder and was acting in fear, without a re-trial or an appeal on the facts, which the State cannot appeal on unless they change not only Seekoie but other laws, it is difficult to see how the State's appeal can succeed on conviction.

Sentence is another KOF but no doubt she will allow it and it will then be up to the SCA to ponder on whether to change it.

 

[ColonelMustard]

It's like when you know someone wants to fire you or break up with you, but you still try and explain what happened, although you can tell they are over it and done already...very awkward... yet you still try and make your valid points, although meekly and quickly...

Great analogy.

 

[44ALLAN]

Bro, you may want to try it sometime yourself (or your best impression of it), just to add more spice to your love life. Be sure to wear a black robe and throw in some legal terms, too. :heartluv:

I hope you don't mean with Nel sis !!
Yikes...............:hills:

 

[Val1]

I'll bet you that she has no idea what he's talking about. Maybe vaguely but that's all.

Gawd I hope she does... I even get it and I'm just regular folk with no legal training.

 

[zoran]

His delivery today has been disappointing. For as intelligent as he is, he sometimes struggles with articulation. He seems a bit overwhelmed with the details that he needs to present.

+1

Ive actually turned the live feed off, he seems to be stammering through almost like hes frustrated by something. Why is M'lady in charge of this hearing anyway?

 

[L2L]

Yes! The look on her face says it all! Nel said back at 11:20 but she couldn't resist correcting : we'll be back at 11:30!

 

[JudgeJudi]

Mandy Wiener @MandyWiener · 7m 7 minutes ago

Still reckon we'll be done by lunchtime. Barry Roux gives an assurance he will be 'very short'. Looks pensive, considering Nel's argument

 

[ColonelMustard]

I hope you don't mean with Nel sis !!
Yikes...............:hills:

I don't knows what team anyone is on, here, or whether someone may be a switch hitter, but now I know what team you're not on. :grouphug:

 

[Val1]

+1

Ive actually turned the live feed off, he seems to be stammering through almost like hes frustrated by something. Why is M'lady in charge of this hearing anyway?

I agree, it's like putting the fox in charge of the henhouse.

 

[katydid23]

So who exactly considers these arguments that Nel is making? Masipa? Is she the one that decides?

 

[ColonelMustard]

+1

Ive actually turned the live feed off, he seems to be stammering through almost like hes frustrated by something. Why is M'lady in charge of this hearing anyway?

South African law.

She can say no and I think that can be appealed so maybe the law of appealing to the judge in the case just reflects courtesy.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Why isn't OP there?

He's not allowed to be?
Roux thought it would be best?
He's too busy eating left over birthday cake?
Other?

 

[zwiebel]

The Seekoei case for reference.

https://criminallaw101andbeyond.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/seekoei-beeld.pdf

 

[ColonelMustard]

They are back.