Do we have any verified SAR folks here?

[Cyclemama]

Hooray again for Freefallzzz!

 

[Kimster]

Free has pics of the dogs and even a news reporter asked for one and she let him use it. Can't wait to see them!

 

[Herding Cats]

EIGHT YEARS? It takes that long? You could become a physician in that amount of time. I had no idea.
Do you take college classes or are you taught by SAR experts? Wow.

Also, I wonder why TES has not been asked to come and assist in finding Kyron.

No, it doesn't actually take 8 years - that's just my "life plan" as to when I'll have the time and space to do the training...I'm "very busy" until then! LOL.

Sorry - didn't mean to give improper info...

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[GrainneDhu]

GrainneDhu has written extensively about her knowledge of SAR on various threads. I found it very helpful. Hopefully she can point you to some of her posts.

P.S. I don't know if she's verified.

I'm not verified. It has been too many years since I was in the field for me to feel comfortable speaking as anything more than a layperson.

 

[allaster]

If so, is it okay to ask if they explain what they know about SAR?

I'm starting to REALLY regret not paying more attention to my son's scoutmaster, who is a volunteer SAR. He was saved by a SAR team, so he is great about teaching the kids about safety, and the importance of SAR.

I get my hopes up with these searches, and then we get no news. Maybe this is normal? Maybe it's a time issue?

If there's anyone here who knows about this stuff, I'd love to know more about SAR in general.

Thanks.

I am New York State SAR Certified and a member of SAR Team 5-1 !

 

[adh74]

I have a question:

If (and this is just a theory I have) DeDe met with Terri and took some tools or other evidence of her crime and hid them for her...and she buried said items UNDER bushes or plants (aka "gardening")...would the SAR teams and/or dogs be able to find them? In other words, would they just be looking at what could be seen with the naked eye? Or would they actually be pulling up some of these plants and looking for buried evidence?

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Oriah is SAR as far as I know, but hasn't yet been verified. I hope she emails Tricia and becomes verified. Someone want to drop her a PM or email?

Oriah is SAR, not verified yet. (So am I, we're partners.) But they're also out in the field right now, so won't get PM's until they return.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Dogs are great in these situations for finding the little nucker holes/trails that lead into the bramble. If a child can get into it, so can a dog. Sometimes there are no holes like that, but often humans completely miss them and dogs find them.
I'm not familiar with the details of the case, so not sure what type of dogs they are using. The age of the case is going to make a difference on what type of dogs and how successful they're going to be in those areas.
As for the poison oak, it's not fun, but if my dog says that the MP went through it, I will too, that's why I have cases of Tecnu. Not everyone works that way though.

ITA, these are some of the situations that dogs are great for. Given the time and the circumstances of this particular missing child, they would be using HRD dogs exclusively at this point- and a properly trained HRD dog could locate remains or evidence, typically within an area of about half an acre in this type of terrain. So they would have to break down their grid search accordingly.

As far as poison oak/ivy and other stinging or poisonous plants- most dogs are protected by their fur. They're more likely to pass poison ivy on to their handler than to get it themselves. And yep sarx is correct- they just get a detox bath after every job.
Vegetation is not usually the biggest health concern for SAR dogs- heat or cold is.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

I have a question:

If (and this is just a theory I have) DeDe met with Terri and took some tools or other evidence of her crime and hid them for her...and she buried said items UNDER bushes or plants (aka "gardening")...would the SAR teams and/or dogs be able to find them? In other words, would they just be looking at what could be seen with the naked eye? Or would they actually be pulling up some of these plants and looking for buried evidence?

If there were scent markers on these items, a SAR dog could locate them and alert to them, even if they were buried. A well trained HRD dog can usually alert to buried items up to 3 foot deep. Sometimes more. And if the soil were recently displaced, it would be even easier.

 

[helpfulcharlie]

Knowing what they are searching for would determine the search methodology. If they're searching for TOOLS, as mentioned above, they'd maybe use metal detectors instead of dogs. I'm going to guess they're looking for other evidence at this time, but that's just a guess.

I'm also going to guess that the SAR teams might not be looking for specific evidence, but clues in general. Discarded evidence, evidence of disturbed land (which would look different now than week 1 or 2 -- at the time of disposal, a person with landscaping knowledge might be able to return land to look undisturbed after burying something -- but a number of weeks later, if they weren't able to return to it to maintain it properly, some evidence of the disturbance might show -- some disrupted roots might show an outline of dead grass, or whatever was buried may have settled somewhat and show a depression. I'm going to guess they've got these kinds of things in mind while searching. Basically, whatever was disturbed weeks ago might look more pronounced at this point.

 

[arielilane]

SAR's people are to be commended for your work!:twocents:

 

[Emeralgem]

Knowing what they are searching for would determine the search methodology. If they're searching for TOOLS, as mentioned above, they'd maybe use metal detectors instead of dogs. I'm going to guess they're looking for other evidence at this time, but that's just a guess.

I'm also going to guess that the SAR teams might not be looking for specific evidence, but clues in general. Discarded evidence, evidence of disturbed land (which would look different now than week 1 or 2 -- at the time of disposal, a person with landscaping knowledge might be able to return land to look undisturbed after burying something -- but a number of weeks later, if they weren't able to return to it to maintain it properly, some evidence of the disturbance might show -- some disrupted roots might show an outline of dead grass, or whatever was buried may have settled somewhat and show a depression. I'm going to guess they've got these kinds of things in mind while searching. Basically, whatever was disturbed weeks ago might look more pronounced at this point.

Also, wouldn't extensive rainfall in the area have an effect on any disturbance made in the ground?
My understanding is the soil was quite saturated from rainfall..


http://www.kgw.com/news/local/A-months-rain-in-4-days-for-Metro-95627354.html

 

[helpfulcharlie]

Interesting find while googling for rainfall effects on buried human remains.

http://www.k9forensic.org/sha-Eva-LoLo.htm

Dogs in 2004 successfully detected the location of a fur trapper killed and buried in the 1850s.

Relevant quote:

Our experience has shown us that the scent from a decomposed human body travels, flowing downhill with rain water and snow runoff. In this case, the surface slopes eight degrees southward from the proposed burial site shown on the magnetometer map, toward the cluster of young pines below. This was precisely where the dogs picked up the scent and alerted.

 

[Kimster]

Pictures of the SAR team in Kyron's case as of yesterday are here: http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t166/ubrmel/08 08 2010 SEARCH/

 

[sarx]

Evidence Dogs of the police variety can look for metal objects, this includes guns, knives, machetes, and shovels by default.
As far as the rain goes, yes, it could have an impact on human searchers, but it's not going to ruin the chances for a good HRD dog or evidence dog for that matter.

 

[nursebeeme]

sarx... I was going to ask you about cell phone sniffer dogs... I actually found this article on them... what is your thought on these type of dogs? Is this training common?

The problem has not risen to those levels in Rhode Island, where about a half-dozen of the devices have been found on prisoners in the past two years or so. Besides instituting search protocols and policies, the Department of Corrections has spent thousands of dollars to acquire and train special European police dogs that can scour prison cells, hallways and cafeterias for marijuana, cocaine, heroin and … cell phones.

Robbie, a Belgian Malinois owned by the corrections department, is the department’s designated cell phone dog. He initially was brought in to sniff out drugs, but with extra training was taught to find cell phones as well.

Prisons across the country are using dogs to find illicit electronics.

http://www.projo.com/news/content/PRISON_CELLS_07-12-10_B4IA8P9_v76.19147df.html


ETA: I am asking this after BM's comment about the search possibly being for a cell phone (he is a talking head/retired from the MCSO)

 

[sarx]

So, after looking at the pix, I can make a future educated guesses.
This is not a police K9 based on lack of uniform and private vehicle. Likely not a evidence dog then either as in my experience most evidence dogs are also police K9 as they want and often need them to be on the scene right away to look for discarded/thrown evidence from the crime.

 

[sarx]

sarx... I was going to ask you about cell phone sniffer dogs... I actually found this article on them... what is your thought on these type of dogs? Is this training common?

The problem has not risen to those levels in Rhode Island, where about a half-dozen of the devices have been found on prisoners in the past two years or so. Besides instituting search protocols and policies, the Department of Corrections has spent thousands of dollars to acquire and train special European police dogs that can scour prison cells, hallways and cafeterias for marijuana, cocaine, heroin and … cell phones.

Robbie, a Belgian Malinois owned by the corrections department, is the department’s designated cell phone dog. He initially was brought in to sniff out drugs, but with extra training was taught to find cell phones as well.

Prisons across the country are using dogs to find illicit electronics.

http://www.projo.com/news/content/PRISON_CELLS_07-12-10_B4IA8P9_v76.19147df.html


ETA: I am asking this after BM's comment about the search possibly being for a cell phone (he is a talking head/retired from the MCSO)

Dogs can be trained to sniff out almost anything. Drugs, people, guns, phones, tumors, diabetic levels.
I kind of doubt however that a SAR dog would have cross trained in cell phone detection so if this was the case the pictures would be showing us a Govt. dog.
Most agencies will only let their dogs go out in official capacities if you will, meaning that if the dog is being used for something you will be able to recognize them as a LE dog. Seeing a private car with custom plates and a giant decal on the side tells me this is a private SAR member and not LE.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Dogs can be trained to sniff out almost anything. Drugs, people, guns, phones, tumors, diabetic levels.
I kind of doubt however that a SAR dog would have cross trained in cell phone detection so if this was the case the pictures would be showing us a Govt. dog.
Most agencies will only let their dogs go out in official capacities if you will, meaning that if the dog is being used for something you will be able to recognize them as a LE dog. Seeing a private car with custom plates and a giant decal on the side tells me this is a private SAR member and not LE.

Additional info on how LE sometimes handles the need for particular-trained dogs- lets say.... accelerants. Some LE or FD's depts have police K9's who are cross trained for accelerants. But most don't. If a case progresses to needing investigation into accelerant use, and the dept doesn't have an accelerant dog, they might call private SAR for that particular type of certified dog, because they will need to maintain the integrity of the case in court. Does that help explain?

 

[freefallzzzz]

I have a question.
When SAR teams are out searching, I'm assuming they obviously have to report anything they see either via radio or marking it on their sheet. (Examples I'll try to give: footprint, old water bottle, old key, etc)

Or do they only report certain items as instructed and it's different for each search?

I know they have to come across a lot of stuff, as being a local and going out in the woods, you always can find evidence that humans have been there as sadly a lot leave garbage items behind..

So, on past searches was it different as far as what you reported back or had to mark what you found, or do you mark every item you find, even if it appears to have been there awhile and probably not related to the search?

And if you cannot answer, that's okay too, I understand the privacy thing =) TIA =)