Doogie Howser is Gay!

[narlacat]

Thats ok. It is important to me because no matter what I was taught, I believe I am not the judge of her on that. I dont want her to feel like she cannot talk to me about it or be afraid.

But do you believe God will judge her?
That is what I got from post #99 of yours...that it is not up to you to judge but God....who ultimately will send her to Hell for being gay...

Sorry Michelle, you know I love you (lol) and I know how hard it is to shed some of the beliefs that were instilled in you as a child....my parents feel sorry for gays because in their eyes it is just not acceptable..and they are not ever going to have everlasting life...
It took me a long time to get over my upbringing, they tried to scare the life out of me....for even having an 'unpure' thought I was headed straight to hell.
I know they loved me but geez, they had a funny way of showing it by saying like that to me...

 

[IrishMist]

I didn't know that Irish, geez how awful for you.
I gather you don't speak to him now?

No, I do. He didn't speak to me for years and years. I was disowned at 13, he would not speak to me again until I was 19 or 20...

But, to be at peace with myself, I needed to be at peace with him. So, slowly, we talked a bit here and there, and now we talk every few weeks.

He's my dad. I may not always like him, but he's the only dad I have. I'll never change him- or anybody else. That's just the way it is. I accepted a long time ago that he's not Mike Brady, will never be Mike Brady, and it is what it is.

We don't discuss the past. I know he's a biggot, but I'm not going to be able to change that, either... it's all weird, I know. I just don't believe in throwing away family- it's happened too much in mine.

Oh, shoot, I forgot you're Aussie... do you have the Brady Bunch on TV there? How about Ozzie and Harriet, cause my dad will never be Ozzie, either!

 

[IrishMist]

I have specifically said that I dont believe that statement.

No, Michelle, I was trying to say what my line of thinking would be, if I were in her place. Not saying that you said that. You have said you believe it's a sin...

 

[narlacat]

No, I do. He didn't speak to me for years and years. I was disowned at 13, he would not speak to me again until I was 19 or 20...

But, to be at peace with myself, I needed to be at peace with him. So, slowly, we talked a bit here and there, and now we talk every few weeks.

He's my dad. I may not always like him, but he's the only dad I have. I'll never change him- or anybody else. That's just the way it is. I accepted a long time ago that he's not Mike Brady, will never be Mike Brady, and it is what it is.

We don't discuss the past. I know he's a biggot, but I'm not going to be able to change that, either... it's all weird, I know. I just don't believe in throwing away family- it's happened too much in mine.

Oh, shoot, I forgot you're Aussie... do you have the Brady Bunch on TV there? How about Ozzie and Harriet, cause my dad will never be Ozzie, either!

I understand.

I grew up watching The Brady Bunch yes
Didn't see Ozzie and Harriet though...did I miss anything lol

 

[csds703]

No, I do. He didn't speak to me for years and years. I was disowned at 13, he would not speak to me again until I was 19 or 20...

But, to be at peace with myself, I needed to be at peace with him. So, slowly, we talked a bit here and there, and now we talk every few weeks.

He's my dad. I may not always like him, but he's the only dad I have. I'll never change him- or anybody else. That's just the way it is. I accepted a long time ago that he's not Mike Brady, will never be Mike Brady, and it is what it is.

We don't discuss the past. I know he's a biggot, but I'm not going to be able to change that, either... it's all weird, I know. I just don't believe in throwing away family- it's happened too much in mine.

Oh, shoot, I forgot you're Aussie... do you have the Brady Bunch on TV there? How about Ozzie and Harriet, cause my dad will never be Ozzie, either!

What a great attitutde you have. Nobody is all bad or all good. We can disagree and even hate things about people and love them at the same time.

It actually reminds me of Archie Bunker. He had a loveable side to him as well.

 

[Nova]

I can see a bunch of reasons for keeping quiet, not starting a discussion with someone about being gay:
... it's private business - heterosexuals don't talk about their preferred sexual positions, after all....

Ah, Details, my friend, you did NOT just go there! :doh:

Seriously (and though I know you meant no harm), being "gay" and in a gay partnership is NOT analogous to a straight person's "preferred sexual positions." This is precisely the core problem in most public discussions of minority sexuality: heterosexual relationships are presumed to be about noble things like love and family, while homosexual relationships are assumed to be primarily about sexual intercourse.

As fun as the latter may sound, it doesn't really do justice to our partnerships.

----

Let's try a different angle: what would we think of a heterosexual person who kept his/her marriage a secret? Just his/her right, or would we be suspicious?

 

[IrishMist]

What a great attitutde you have. Nobody is all bad or all good. We can disagree and even hate things about people and love them at the same time.

It actually reminds me of Archie Bunker. He had a loveable side to him as well.

It's funny you said that, cause I almost used Archie as an analogy- only Archie has this loveable side that my dad just doesn't have!! The biggot part, yes!

I've never met anyone else like my dad in all my years. Not easy to get along with, I'll tell ya.

How's this for a hint? He's been divorced six times. He has six kids, and I'm the only one who talks to him... he's a difficult person!

But, yeah, nobody is all good or all bad. I agree with that one hundred percent, csds.

 

[IrishMist]

I understand.

I grew up watching The Brady Bunch yes
Didn't see Ozzie and Harriet though...did I miss anything lol

I kinda figured you would, Narla.

And, no, you didn't miss a thing, IMO.

 

[IrishMist]

Ah, Details, my friend, you did NOT just go there! :doh:

Seriously (and though I know you meant no harm), being "gay" and in a gay partnership is NOT analogous to a straight person's "preferred sexual positions." This is precisely the core problem in most public discussions of minority sexuality: heterosexual relationships are presumed to be about noble things like love and family, while homosexual relationships are assumed to be primarily about sexual intercourse.

As fun as the latter may sound, it doesn't really do justice to our partnerships.

----

Let's try a different angle: what would we think of a heterosexual person who kept his/her marriage a secret? Just his/her right, or would we be suspicious?

Now, see? This is what I do. I just think how I'd feel if things were reversed. I don't understand why other people can't do that. And if they can, how can they still be willing to discriminate?

Seriously. I really, truly, don't understand.

 

[nanandjim]

...He has six kids, and I'm the only one who talks to him...

I must admit that you are a much bigger person than I. I'm not sure that I could continue to speak to someone as difficult and as biased as your father. It would haunt me not having a relationship with my father. I would feel bad and uneasy, but I'm not sure that I could continue a relationship. I give you a lot of credit for being the bigger person. Are you married? Do you have children? If so, I bet that you are a great partner and a great Mom.

 

[Details]

Ah, Details, my friend, you did NOT just go there! :doh:

Seriously (and though I know you meant no harm), being "gay" and in a gay partnership is NOT analogous to a straight person's "preferred sexual positions." This is precisely the core problem in most public discussions of minority sexuality: heterosexual relationships are presumed to be about noble things like love and family, while homosexual relationships are assumed to be primarily about sexual intercourse.

As fun as the latter may sound, it doesn't really do justice to our partnerships.

----

Let's try a different angle: what would we think of a heterosexual person who kept his/her marriage a secret? Just his/her right, or would we be suspicious?

You can relax - I did not go there. After all, this person isn't keeping secrets, she's just not going out and bringing it up as a topic for discussion - she's (the gay cousin, that is) treating it as if it is normal.

What would you think of a heterosexual person who brings up in conversation that they are heterosexual? It'd be kinda weird - like if they said they liked doggy style. When you talk about your spouse - do you talk about their gender, or about who they are? Do you characterize your relationship as 'straight' or 'gay' - or as wonderful, meaningful, supportive, etc.?

If someone was being obtuse, and refusing to understand that this was a significant relationship, a dating relationship or a marriage relationship, rather than just your girlfriend you go shopping with - then I'd expect to need to make it clear to them. But if another person just accepts that this girl is who this other girl is married to, the 'what type of sex do you have' angle is something that need never come up if hetero and relationships are accepted as equal. You just introduce your partner - not your gay partner, or your bi partner - your partner - whether you are straight or gay or somewhere inbetween.

 

[Dark Knight]

We have gays in my family, too. None were ostracized. They also kept their private life private, knowing not everyone might be comfortable with it, which is quite respectful of them. You get what you give, it seems. But ostracising them isn't very loving.

 

[windovervocalcords]

We have gays in my family, too. None were ostracized. They also kept their private life private, knowing not everyone might be comfortable with it, which is quite respectful of them. You get what you give, it seems. But ostracising them isn't very loving.

When you say they keep their private life private what do you mean?

Does that mean not introducing your family to their loved ones?

 

[csds703]

We have gays in my family, too. None were ostracized. They also kept their private life private, knowing not everyone might be comfortable with it, which is quite respectful of them. You get what you give, it seems. But ostracising them isn't very loving.

That is the part I have a problem with. It is not up to others to be comfortable. If I decided to date someone who my family didn't like then that is their problem not mine. It has nothing to do with gay or straight. If I was happy in my relationships then I would expect the people I love to just be happy for me.
It would never occur to me that I would have to keep it private just because of someone else's beliefs about how I should live and love.

 

[IrishMist]

I must admit that you are a much bigger person than I. I'm not sure that I could continue to speak to someone as difficult and as biased as your father. It would haunt me. I would feel bad and uneasy, but I'm not sure that I could continue a relationship. I give you a lot of credit for being the bigger person. Are you married? Do you have children? If so, I bet that you are a great partner and a great Mom.

Wow, thanks, nanandjim. I appreciate that. I got lucky- my girls are two really cool people. Both hold strong opinions (I don't know where they got THAT from...) and I have a wonderful partner. I call him the IrishMister, but only cause that sounds better than the IrishFiancee.

As it all turned out, I am a lucky girl.

 

[Dark Knight]

When you say they keep their private life private what do you mean?

Does that mean not introducing your family to their loved ones?

We knew they had boyfriends and usually met them. They didn't go around kissing them and such in front of us, though, lol. That was their choice, and a respectful one. But they woudl talk about them the same as anyone else. "I'll have to have so and so make me cookies this weekend, etc." lol!

My dad is bi-sexual and abandoned my mother and me for the boyfriend he was having an affair with. I have since reconciled with him somewhat. He sees no point in gay marriage either, lol.

 

[IrishMist]

We knew they had boyfriends and usually met them. They didn't go around kissing them and such in front of us, though, lol. That was their choice, and a respectful one. But they woudl talk about them the same as anyone else. "I'll have to have so and so make me cookies this weekend, etc." lol!

My dad is bi-sexual and abandoned my mother and me for the boyfriend he was having an affair with. I have since reconciled with him somewhat. He sees no point in gay marriage either, lol.

Boy, that must have been tough. Not a lot of support for that kind of thing back in the day.

 

[windovervocalcords]

We knew they had boyfriends and usually met them. They didn't go around kissing them and such in front of us, though, lol. That was their choice, and a respectful one. But they woudl talk about them the same as anyone else. "I'll have to have so and so make me cookies this weekend, etc." lol!

My dad is bi-sexual and abandoned my mother and me for the boyfriend he was having an affair with. I have since reconciled with him somewhat. He sees no point in gay marriage either, lol.

Thanks for answering. Sorry to hear about your dad abandoning you and your mother.

Is your dad still in that relationship? Long term gay couples usually do see the point in gay marraige, legally, economically and it simply feels different.

It does surprise me that you have gay family members and still say "gays are not like the rest of us."

 

[Nova]

You can relax - I did not go there.

Details, I trust you read the respect and affection that lay beneath my mock-indignation. (I mean I meant what I said, but I understood your intent and took no offense.)

What would you think of a heterosexual person who brings up in conversation that they are heterosexual?

Actually, heterosexuals do it all the time, but because their relationships are socially sanctioned, they are afforded symbols (wedding rings, anniversaries, wedding showers, etc.) that allow them to announce their sexuality without referencing sexual positions.

During the election coverage last night, I heard endless commentary on the spouses appearing with the winners and losers. There were opinions on where the spouse should stand, how s/he should behave, etc., but NObody questioned whether a spouse belonged on the dais. Heterosexuality gets announced all the time. One only needs to step outside a bit to see it.

 

[Dark Knight]

Thanks for answering. Sorry to hear about your dad abandoning you and your mother.

Is your dad still in that relationship? Long term gay couples usually do see the point in gay marraige, legally, economically and it simply feels different.

It does surprise me that you have gay family members and still say "gays are not like the rest of us."

Thanks. Yes, he is. I just talk about the other guy the same as anyone else. If they DID move somewhere and get married, I would not support it, but I would still talk to them, etc. Same for any of my gay relatives. I never have supported ostracizing people. I think gay sexual intercourse is sin, not being gay itself. But I have enough sins that I can't pretend I am better than them, lol. And I don't agree with them getting married as that is a religious concept, in my view, created by God. Otherwise, they have the same civil rights as the rest of us. It isn't the same as what blacks went through with seperate drinking fountains, schools, voting, etc. Not even close, really. And many black leaders have said the same thing.

And I don't see loving the sinner but not the sin as condescending, as that SHOULD be the policy of any Christian towards ANY one. Not just gays. *shrugs*